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Posts: 6
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August 2006
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 Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 17:13
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I've read the rules about creating your war council and they're a little ambiguous. Basically, is the Commander considered a Lore Master for purposes of determining your starting lore tokens, and starting and max hand of lore cards? The chart in the rule book for this shows only the symbols for the other members of the war council, but one does assign levels to one's commander using Lore Master Level Tokens, so in that sense he is considered a Lore Master. So, for example, if one has a a 2nd level commander and 1st level Rogue, Cleric, Warrior, and Mage, does this player have a 2nd level lore master or only first level?
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Posts: 3326
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February 2006
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Posts: 402
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 17:32
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For me the commander is a Lore master as stated P. 55.
But if he is the highest level Lore Master in the war council then he doesn't determine how much lore cards and token you have at the start.
Because for me, the Commander would be broken. And you can check P 56 :
The first table present how much command card you can have according to the level of your Commander. Pay attention to this table, on the upper right, there's the commander symbol.
Now, there's another table telling you how much Lore card and Lore tokens you can have according to your highest level Lore Master. Pay attention to the upper right that there is symbol for Rogue, Cleric, Wizard and the Warrior but not for the Commander.
So I think the Commander's level must not be take into account for Lore cards and Lore tokens.
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Posts: 46
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March 2006
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 17:40
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I would agree with SHwoKing that the commanders level does not determine how many lore cards you can hold. That level is based on the highest level among the Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, and Warrior. I look at it as a choice between having more command cards or more lore cards when determining how to allocate the tokens. It just adds to the difficult decision making when making a war council. I like it.
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Posts: 6
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August 2006
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 17:41
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Yeah, those tables are what I was referring to when I said it was ambiguous.
Based on that table, we've been playing that the level of one's commander does not determine the number of Lore cards.
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Posts: 54
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August 2006
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 17:42
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| SHwoKing wrote on Tue, 19 December 2006 16:32 |
For me the commander is a Lore master as stated P. 55.
But if he is the highest level Lore Master in the war council then he doesn't determine how much lore cards and token you have at the start.
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Agreed, that's how we play it. He has no spells (or Lore Cards) so why should he influence the number of Lore cards you have. He gets to influence the number of command cards.
Steve P
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Posts: 3326
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 18:00
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I can understand the logic but I do not see where you can exclude the Commander from the mix. If he is a Lore Master, which we all seem to agree he is, then he can certainly be used to determing the number of Lore cards one holds. I see the chart but there is no rule that states a Commander cannot be counted if he is the highest Lore master.
Look at it this way. If you play a scenario that only allows 3 Levels, for example. You choose to make your commander a Level 3 and forego any other Lore Masters. What happens? Are you not allowed to use Lore cards? Are you not allowed to draw Lore Cards at the end of your turn? Would you draw them and discard them?
The rules indicate that you could still collect Cards, still collect Lore, still play cards at a premium price. Even if you have no other Lore Masters, their cards still form a deck (5 per class). Just because the Commander does not have cards, does not mean he can't use them; he just has to pay more. By excluding the Commander as a Lore Master, you are making some pretty heavy assumptions on the rest of the rules.
[Updated on: Tue, 19 December 2006 18:02]
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Posts: 402
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Posts: 1
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 19:56
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nice discussion guys. I have recently come from the land of World of Warcraft and I have to same I am very happy reading these boards. I see problems posed and solved by a community with a shocking amount of respect for each other. I'm not used to it. It will take some time to adjust.
great game.
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Posts: 78
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April 2005
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 20:03
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| efram wrote on Tue, 19 December 2006 11:56 |
nice discussion guys. I have recently come from the land of World of Warcraft and I have to same I am very happy reading these boards. I see problems posed and solved by a community with a shocking amount of respect for each other. I'm not used to it. It will take some time to adjust.
great game.
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LOL! Yeah, WoW's a great game but the community seems to be one of utter discontent! Glad to have you with us, efram!
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Posts: 3326
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 22:20
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| SHwoKing wrote on Tue, 19 December 2006 11:59 |
Playing with a level 3 war council is somewhat a homerules.
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Yes and no. We have no "official" scenarios but we have an official rule that tells us how to customize the War Council. We are told to typically go no more than 6. which means we could do 3 within the context of the rules. In addition, there is a handicap rule which allows you to take less levels to play inexperienced players. Finally, you can use a Creature to eat up 2 Levels. So you could easily take a 1 level handicap, a 2 level creature, and a 3 Level Commander and still be within the cotext of the rules.
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I would allow playing Lore card in this case, but you start with no Lore Card and not Lore tokens at the start.
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Well thanks for allowing me that! But this is going beyond the rules for sure. Nothing says you can start at Zero Cards and work your way up. Making this statement is going bweyond the rules even more than what was said previously.
[quote]Just watch the symbols on the table, they are pretty self explanatory.
I've told you, playing commander as you say is breaking the game.
Why pick a level 3 Lore master then ? You already gain a landmark and more command cards with a commander. He also affect how much unit you can activate for a lot of command card. So the only difference for the other Lore Master would be 1,2 or 3 Lore cards per game where you benefits of the level. That would be really crappy. And the question "what is the best War council" is quiet easy to answer then : pick a level 3 commander every time.[quote]
I don't see it as self-explanatory. There is nothing that states that a Commander is not included in this discussion. The absence of his symbol isn't sufficient for me. Like I already said, i can see the logic, it needs to be clarified. But I think there is more of an argument on what the rules say then what they don't say. And see a Commander is not excluded, it is going to take official word from DOW for me to think I couldn't have a Level 3 Commander and be able to hold 3 Lore Cards.
Maybe a Level 3 Commander is the best mix, maybe it isn't. If you put all your levels into a Commander, you still need to pay an extra 3 Lore to play a card. You still play a card at Level 1. And your Lore deck is greatly reduced based on the mix going in. So would a Level 3 Commander be powerful, yes. But he also has more limitations than a broaded War Council. So the opinion of this make isn't enoug to convince me that your interpretation is correct.
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[EDIT] one more argument : look at where the table for arcane according to Lore master level is placed : in "Other Lore Masters" which exclude the commander from this paragraph as he was discussed in the paragraph before : The Commander.
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I don't think this is a valid argument. it does say "other" Lore masters and more importantly it says "all other". A Commander is another Lore master. If it said "Your Wizard and all Other Lore Masteres not including the Commander," then great! Dead issue. But the way the wording is, the evidence that a Commander is a Lore Master, and nothing specifically excludes it, then it will take more than your reasoning power to convince me I am reading this wrong.
[Updated on: Tue, 19 December 2006 22:22]
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Posts: 28
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 23:04
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I can't see how the commander can ever be a loremaster:
1) p. 56: "Additional loremasters. In addition to the Wizard lore master introduced in chapter 8, three other Lore Master character classes can sit at a player's War Council." From here on they mention Rogue, Cleric and Warrior.
So there are four loremasters: Wizard, Rogue, Cleric and Warrior
2) p. 57 top: War Council Setup: Place the number of level tokens on the War Council sheet for the commander and each lore master .
The Commander is no lore master then. The paragraph directly above could be read as indicating the opposite, but it just states that the Lore Masters' levels are included, not that the commander's is not.
3) p. 57, deck sorting.
Strong indication of only four lore masters.
4) p. 74 - Lore Master: A battlelore advisor, sitting at the player's War Council and providing him with aid through the use of its legendary lore powers.
Lore Masters use lore powers, Commander uses none => not a lore master.
I see all the above as evidence for there only being four lore masters, see also p. 56 right chart as menitoned before
I will admit though, that the left pane on level 55 is very muddy indeed, presuming the commander isn't a Lore Master.
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Posts: 6
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 Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 23:30
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It occured to me to look in the Battlelore primer that I read oh so long ago when it was first published on the website. Page five of the primer has a sidebar with a heading "The Five Lore Masters." Under the heading is the standard picture of the Commander, the Warrior, the Mage, the Rogue, and the Cleric.
So I guess I ultimately answered my own question. The primer makes it seem pretty clear that the Commander is indeed a Lore Master.
It's still possible that the Commander does not and can not influence the number of Lore cards, but I don't believe this is stated in the rules.
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Posts: 180
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Tue, 19 December 2006 23:47
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Pg. 65 Lore Masters' Landmarks:
"When Lore Master Landmark rules are in effect, a player with a 3rd Level Lore Master (Cleric, Wizard, Warrior, or Rogue) on his War Council...."
Note also that the landmark for the Commander has its own heading (pg. 68 - Commander's Landmarks)
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Posts: 196
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Wed, 20 December 2006 00:08
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I think we need an official ruling on this. Anyone know if it has already been answered on the French or German language forums?
Jude
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Posts: 147
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Wed, 20 December 2006 01:04
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| Henning K wrote on Tue, 19 December 2006 21:46 |
| Befehlshaber |
1. Zählt der "Befehlshaber" zu den Meistern ? In Sinne für Machtkarten und Machtplättchen. Ich denke nicht, bin mir aber nicht sicher.
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Der Befehlshaber wird bezüglich Machtkarten und Machtplättchen ignoriert. Er kann weder zaubern, noch sind Machtkarten für ihn vorhanden.
Der Level des Befehlshabers bestimmt lediglich die Anzahl an Kommandokarten, die ein Spieler erhält.
Kein Befehlshaber = 3 Kommandokarten (Minimum)
Level 1 = 4 Kommandokarten
Level 2 = 5 Kommandokarten
Level 3 = 6 Kommandokarten (Maximum)
Der höchste Level eines der anderen Meister bestimmt die Menge an Machtkarten und Machtplättchen.
| Kreaturenlevel |
2. Kreaturen: Für die Spinne reicht Kreaturenlevel 1.
2a) Was ist aber mit Riesen und Erdelementar? benötige ich für die ebenfalls Level 1 ,oder gar 2?
2b) Wenn ich die Spinne mit blauer Flagge anwerden will, benötige ich 2 Level Kreaturen?
2c) welche Level wird benötigt, falls ich zwei oder noch mehr Kreaturen anwerben will?
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Diese Fragen kann ich spontan nicht beantworten, ich kläre sie bis spätestens morgen Nachmittag und ergänze sie dann hier.
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3. Was ist der Platz für den "Gast"? Hat der zZ noch keine Aufgabe und ist erst für spätere Erweiterungen? Oder hab ich einfach nur überlesen?
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Der Gast ist eine von vielen Überraschungen im kommenden Jahr. Da muss man noch ein wenig Geduld haben... 
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4. Werden Kampangenregeln raus kommen, mit Erfahrungszuwachs für Einheiten und Kriegsrat?
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Auch hier werde ich morgen erst antworten können.
Viel Spaß beim Spielen,
Henning Kröpke
(für Days of Wonder)
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This guy claims that his answers are official, I don't doubt this since he answers, for at least two weeks now, questions on the german board.
I won't translate the whole thing, I'm too lazy now  However,
the interesting part is
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Der Befehlshaber wird bezüglich Machtkarten und Machtplättchen ignoriert. Er kann weder zaubern, noch sind Machtkarten für ihn vorhanden.
Der Level des Befehlshabers bestimmt lediglich die Anzahl an Kommandokarten, die ein Spieler erhält.
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Translation:
The commander is ignored, regarding to the lore-cards and lore-tokens. He can neither cast nor are any lore-cards available for him.
The level of the commander only determines the number of command-cards, a player get.
I'm sorry for my lousy english, however I think(or hope ) you will be able to understand it
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Posts: 402
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Wed, 20 December 2006 01:11
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This question was never asked on the french board sorry Jude 
Cause it was quiet clear for me that the commander doesn't influence the Lore part of the game.
But as many of us points some contradictory things in the rules, we now need an official answer as noone can tell who is right or wrong at this like the retreat exemple i have posted.
No need to argue more, let's wait for an official answer.
PS : i know someone who might laugh again on seeing another thread with contradictory text in the rules, his name is Ghostwolf 
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Posts: 402
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Thu, 21 December 2006 12:31
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Seems like Dow's staff is in vacation 
We will have to wait a little bit to have the right answer for this one.
The bad thing is that it's not like all those special cases we asked for before, this point influence the game every time you play a custom War Council. 
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Posts: 179
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Fri, 22 December 2006 19:31
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The Commander is the War Council?s single most important Lore Master. His level dictates the number of Command cards a player may hold in his cardholder.
Additional Lore Masters currently include: Wizard, Rogue, Cleric and Warrior.
The Wizard and the additional Lore Masters use the progression table found on page 56 to determine a players initial Lore cards, Lore tokens and maximum Lore cards a player may hold in his cardholder.
Note the level of these Lore Master (Wizard, Rogue, Cleric and Warrior) will not influence the number of Command cards a player may hold.
Note also the Commander level is not used on the Lore Masters progression table and therefore will not determine the number of Lore cards, Lore tokens and maximum Lore cards a player may hold in his cardholder.
Richard Borg
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Posts: 3326
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Fri, 22 December 2006 19:37
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Sounds good. That is the clarification that I need. Commander is a Lore Master but will not be used for the determiniation in your Lore capabilities.
Question though if we get to the point of playing a Lore adventure with just a Commander (with no other Lore masters), how are Lore cards handled then?
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Posts: 402
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Fri, 22 December 2006 20:49
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Thank you for the answer Richard Borg  .
I was playing it like this already but it is 100% according to the rules now.
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Sat, 23 December 2006 07:56
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| ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 22 December 2006 18:37 |
Sounds good. That is the clarification that I need. Commander is a Lore Master but will not be used for the determiniation in your Lore capabilities.
Question though if we get to the point of playing a Lore adventure with just a Commander (with no other Lore masters), how are Lore cards handled then?
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The same way that the rules tell us: 5 Lore cards per loremaster not present on either side; and an extra 3 lore to play lore cards, which are all cast at level 1.
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Posts: 3326
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Sat, 23 December 2006 13:48
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| JMcL63 wrote on Sat, 23 December 2006 00:56 |
| ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 22 December 2006 18:37 |
Sounds good. That is the clarification that I need. Commander is a Lore Master but will not be used for the determiniation in your Lore capabilities.
Question though if we get to the point of playing a Lore adventure with just a Commander (with no other Lore masters), how are Lore cards handled then?
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The same way that the rules tell us: 5 Lore cards per loremaster not present on either side; and an extra 3 lore to play lore cards, which are all cast at level 1.
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Agreed. But also based ont he rules: You start with no Lore Tokens; you start with no Lore Cards, and since the "other" Lore Masters are all Level Zero, then the most Lore cards you can hold in your hand are Zero.
So from what you quoted, it would seem to me that the Commander can still cast Lore but from the rest of the rules and the clarification, it would seem that he can't. So this needs to be clarified further in my opinion.
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Posts: 40
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Posts: 3326
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Re:Is the commander a lore master?
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Sat, 23 December 2006 17:36
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| Warpstorm wrote on Sat, 23 December 2006 09:59 |
By no means an official answer, but I'd play it as if you had a level zero master. The table currently uses a simple one up series to determine the numbers based on level so by extrapolation:
Lore cards at start = 0
Initial Lore Token Reserve = 0
Maximum Lore cards = 1
So, Richard, can you give us the official ruling?
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Ahhhh. Very good catch. I missed that. Yes, that would seem to answer the question nicely. With all the zeroes at start-up, I missed the 0+1 max hand in essence.
So with only a Commander (or with a creature) on your War Council, you could play any Lore card for +3 lore tokens at Level 1. You start the game with no Lore cards or tokens but after the first turn could hang on to at least one.
I am saisfied with this amswer now and consider it a dead issue!
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