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tank commander
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Armor Factory Combat Card Sun, 24 June 2012 00:28
In an OL game each FG holds his own CCs and plays them when and how he sees fit.

For the Armor Factory card - can it be played by a center or left FG to apply that cards printed effects (an Armor unit placed in a vacant Dzerzhinsky Factory hex) to benefit the right FG?

I was under the impression that an FG could only play his own CCs. In this case the left or left Russian FGs would have to use the Street Fight from this card as the factory in question lies on the Russian right.

In other words, only the right Russian FG who holds this card may play it and place a tank.
      
ad79
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Sun, 24 June 2012 00:46
Only the right FG can play it as Armor Factory.
It is a Street Fight card for everyone Else.
      
sam1812
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Sun, 24 June 2012 04:05
First, it should be mentioned that the Factory is split between the center and right sections (2 and 7 hexes, respectively).

The card places an armor unit on a vacant hex in the Factory -- it allows the new unit to be ordered, but it does not require it.

The card specifies that it may be played with its special action by "Allied Commanders Only." It doesn't specify "Allied Center and Right Commanders Only."

It doesn't specify that the Center FG must place a new tank in one of the two center hexes or the Right FG must place it in one of his 7 hexes.

There is other precedent for one FG being able to use a Combat card to place a unit in a different section. The Sniper card allows the FG to place a sniper on a vacant hex adjacent to an ordered infantry. It doesn't require the sniper to be in his section of the board.

While it's admittedly unusual for an FG to play a card that puts a new unit in a distant part of the board, that's the way I believe the card is worded. IMO, the "same-FG-only" interpretation forces you to add words to the card that aren't there.
      
JJAZ
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Sun, 24 June 2012 08:45
I asked this question on the French forum, no result yet.
I'm with Sam, The factory has produced a tank thanks to the left FG in this case.
Isn't it so that what is written on a card often takes the upperhand on rulings?
J.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Sun, 24 June 2012 12:01
sam1812 wrote on Sun, 24 June 2012 03:05

There is other precedent for one FG being able to use a Combat card to place a unit in a different section. The Sniper card allows the FG to place a sniper on a vacant hex adjacent to an ordered infantry. It doesn't require the sniper to be in his section of the board.


I had thought that there was a requirement as the card is given to the FG, so the restriction on their use only is a given? The FG's influence should be restricted to their section, otherwise they become similar to the C-in-C.
      
JJAZ
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Sun, 24 June 2012 13:26
The isue here is that the Card says in the "dzerzinsky factory"
      
tank commander
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Mon, 25 June 2012 01:45
Ok - as far as the "Allied commanders" and "Axis Commanders" - they are mentioned in the combat rules.

"A few Combat cards are specifically tied to one side (Axis or Allied). When drawn by a Commander of the opposite camp, they may only be played as a street fight."

So the Allied Commanders / Axis Commanders seem to be there to limit what the other side can do with those cards, not allow the proper side to use anyway they please.

There are four such cards in the Combat card deck - two for each side.

The Air Bombardment card does have a section limitation on the card:

"In Overlord, targets must be in your section of the battlefield".

Do we take that to mean that all the other combat cards do not limit their effects to a certain section no matter which FG plays it?

I can only guess that perhaps during playtesting that an OL FG tried using it out of area of command so the text was included on the card.

So why not include it on other cards and /or include it in the Combat Card rules? Well, there is only so much info you can place on the cards and we have seen that issue before. As to the rules, perhaps no one thought it was necessary.

The Sniper example given above - where it could be placed outside of a CC playing FG sections. Well, that certainly can open a can of worms (along with the play of the Armor Forward card) as to the play of the other CCs and may be seen as a gamey tactic - IMO.

If we allow (and is offically allowed) any FG to play the Armor Factory card and have that tank placed in either the center or right no matter who played it - well what limitations can be expected on the other cards? Cannot Armor Forward be played by any German FG and then allow any 3 German panzers use the effect of the card (perhaps one panzer on the left - right and center?).

I would like to think that the spirit of the rules is that only the FG playing a CC should directly benefit from its affect.
      
sam1812
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Mon, 25 June 2012 04:41
tank commander wrote on Sun, 24 June 2012 19:45

The Sniper example given above - where it could be placed outside of a CC playing FG sections. Well, that certainly can open a can of worms (along with the play of the Armor Forward card) as to the play of the other CCs and may be seen as a gamey tactic - IMO.

If we allow (and is offically allowed) any FG to play the Armor Factory card and have that tank placed in either the center or right no matter who played it - well what limitations can be expected on the other cards? Cannot Armor Forward be played by any German FG and then allow any 3 German panzers use the effect of the card (perhaps one panzer on the left - right and center?).

My Sniper example doesn't open any cans of worms. If you're the Right FG and you have an infantry on the right-center seam, the Sniper card would permit you to place my sniper on an adjacent hex that lies solely in the center section.

Nobody is suggesting that any Combat card allows one FG to order another FG's units. Creating a tank in the factory is not ordering it. In fact, the card says it happens before units are ordered.

Quote:

I would like to think that the spirit of the rules is that only the FG playing a CC should directly benefit from its affect.

I understand where you're coming from on this. At the same time, if we're talking about direct benefits, the immediate benefit of this card is a tank in the factory that can't move this turn, but that generally may roll 1d, if the FG orders it. On future turns, of course, that FG has a new tank. But as you very well know, FGs help each other all the time -- by giving their neighbor some extra units, killing off attackers, etc.

Hopefully, we'll get an official ruling to clarify this.
      
JJAZ
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Mon, 25 June 2012 07:07
Philoo on the French forum thinks the play is allowed as long as you only place the tank in the factory and do not battle on that turn.

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 25 June 2012 07:07]

      
tank commander
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Mon, 25 June 2012 15:20
My point on that sniper example of yours is that once placed, it becomes the unit of a FG that did not play the card.

I know FGs sometimes order their units and and then move them into another FGs sections, but that Tank Factory CC play seems a bit odd to me.

I just wish to know what I can expect from the play of these cards beforehand (as I am sure other players would) and believe me, I was taken aback when the TF CC card was played liked that.

At any rate, an official response would be great.
      
JJAZ
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Mon, 25 June 2012 23:21
So far 2 answer on the french forum and the score is 2-0 now for the russian armor builders Laughing
      
tank commander
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Tue, 26 June 2012 00:16
JJAZ wrote on Mon, 25 June 2012 17:21

So far 2 answer on the french forum and the score is 2-0 now for the russian armor builders Laughing



But are they official answers? I sent a rules query into DOW on this.
      
JJAZ
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Tue, 26 June 2012 07:15
tank commander wrote on Tue, 26 June 2012 00:16

JJAZ wrote on Mon, 25 June 2012 17:21

So far 2 answer on the french forum and the score is 2-0 now for the russian armor builders Laughing



But are they official answers? I sent a rules query into DOW on this.



No, but experienced French players General Georges was referee in the French open.
I find it interesting Official or not what different people think about questions like this one.
I'm will rest my case with an official answer.
      
RBorg
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Wed, 27 June 2012 06:59
First, I assume that we are discussing the two Overlord scenarios found in Battle Map Series - Volume 3. Please note in an Overlord game only the 3 Field Generals will receive a combat card before the start of the Overlord scenario.

Second, I do not believe the Tractor Factory occupies any hexes in the center section. Therefore, only the Right Field General can play the Armor Factory Combat card.

Third, In regard to the Sniper Combat card. If you order an infantry unit in your section, you can if you wish, place the sniper in any adjacent hex to the ordered infantry unit, even if it is in a section of another Field General. You control the Sniper figure this turn, but the next turn it may only be ordered by you neighboring Field General.

Fourth, A Combat card is played to enhance a Field General's ordered unit(s) or will allow a special action in the section(s) that he commands.

On a final note, to spice things up even more, in our Overlord games, we give each Field General 2 Combat cards instead of a single card at the start of the Overlord scenario.

Enjoy!
Richard Borg
      
bdgza
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Wed, 27 June 2012 10:46
RBorg wrote on Wed, 27 June 2012 06:59

First, I assume that we are discussing the two Overlord scenarios found in Battle Map Series - Volume 3. Please note in an Overlord game only the 3 Field Generals will receive a combat card before the start of the Overlord scenario.

Second, I do not believe the Tractor Factory occupies any hexes in the center section. Therefore, only the Right Field General can play the Armor Factory Combat card.

Third, In regard to the Sniper Combat card. If you order an infantry unit in your section, you can if you wish, place the sniper in any adjacent hex to the ordered infantry unit, even if it is in a section of another Field General. You control the Sniper figure this turn, but the next turn it may only be ordered by you neighboring Field General.

Fourth, A Combat card is played to enhance a Field General's ordered unit(s) or will allow a special action in the section(s) that he commands.

On a final note, to spice things up even more, in our Overlord games, we give each Field General 2 Combat cards instead of a single card at the start of the Overlord scenario.

Enjoy!
Richard Borg



Thanks Mr Borg!

And I was right *gloating time* Cool ! Shall I correct the score with an extra medal or two on the German side? Laughing
      
Zalamence
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Wed, 27 June 2012 11:31
Should we take heed of Mr Borg's final note?

Two cards per Field General - semiofficial?
      
bdgza
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Wed, 27 June 2012 12:09
Zalamence wrote on Wed, 27 June 2012 11:31

Should we take heed of Mr Borg's final note?

Two cards per Field General - semiofficial?


To me it reads like an official variant – optional rule to be agreed by all players.

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 27 June 2012 12:10]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Wed, 27 June 2012 12:11
Zalamence wrote on Wed, 27 June 2012 13:31

Should we take heed of Mr Borg's final note?

Two cards per Field General - semiofficial?


You can take the final note however you want. Smile In tournaments I believe you would still only get one card per field general, but I really like the Combat Cards so we always take two cards per person. Cool
      
RBorg
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Thu, 28 June 2012 06:06
Hi All
I did not have my Overlord maps at hand late last night.

I fished the battle map series vol. 3 out of the attic and sure enough I should have looked before I answered last night, sorry. There are two Dzerzhinsky Tractor Factory hexes in the center section in the Rats in the Factory map.

The center Field General when playing the Armor Factory Combat card may only place the armor unit in either one of the two factory hexes in the center section.

Richard Borg
      
tank commander
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Thu, 28 June 2012 16:27
Thank you Richard for following up on that. Very Happy
      
tank commander
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Thu, 28 June 2012 16:34
Zalamence wrote on Wed, 27 June 2012 05:31

Should we take heed of Mr Borg's final note?

Two cards per Field General - semiofficial?



I would not call this semi-official - just something Richard's group does. But I do like that idea.

On another note, I found it a bit difficult to shuffle a deck of just 20 cards. So I bought a second set of both Combat card decks. I now have 40 cards in each deck and (with any the player's consent) use the double deck in my games that use Combat cards. So Richard's suggestion of dealing out 2 cards per player in an OL game certainly fits in nicely with my 40 card decks.
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Fri, 29 June 2012 00:15
RBorg wrote on Thu, 28 June 2012 06:06

Hi All
I did not have my Overlord maps at hand late last night.

I fished the battle map series vol. 3 out of the attic and sure enough I should have looked before I answered last night, sorry. There are two Dzerzhinsky Tractor Factory hexes in the center section in the Rats in the Factory map.

The center Field General when playing the Armor Factory Combat card may only place the armor unit in either one of the two factory hexes in the center section.

Richard Borg

Now it's official.
Thanks Mr. Borg.
      
Freeloading Phill
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Fri, 29 June 2012 03:30
tank commander wrote on Fri, 29 June 2012 00:34

Zalamence wrote on Wed, 27 June 2012 05:31

Should we take heed of Mr Borg's final note?

Two cards per Field General - semiofficial?

I would not call this semi-official - just something Richard's group does. But I do like that idea.


My group gave 1 each but allowed another draw when the FG acted on their own as well as with a Recon card.

It allowed a nice flow of cards when we were using them for the first time.

Phill
      
RBorg
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Fri, 29 June 2012 05:27
Freeloading Phill wrote on Thu, 28 June 2012 21:30

tank commander wrote on Fri, 29 June 2012 00:34

Zalamence wrote on Wed, 27 June 2012 05:31

Should we take heed of Mr Borg's final note?

Two cards per Field General - semiofficial?

I would not call this semi-official - just something Richard's group does. But I do like that idea.


My group gave 1 each but allowed another draw when the FG acted on their own as well as with a Recon card.

It allowed a nice flow of cards when we were using them for the first time.

Phill


Cool Idea!
We have played something similar in our Seven Years Wars Epic battles and it really works great, but have not tried it for Memoir '44 Overlord.

Richard Borg
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Armor Factory Combat Card Wed, 04 July 2012 13:31
RBorg wrote on Fri, 29 June 2012 04:27

Freeloading Phill wrote on Thu, 28 June 2012 21:30

tank commander wrote on Fri, 29 June 2012 00:34

Zalamence wrote on Wed, 27 June 2012 05:31

Should we take heed of Mr Borg's final note?

Two cards per Field General - semiofficial?

I would not call this semi-official - just something Richard's group does. But I do like that idea.


My group gave 1 each but allowed another draw when the FG acted on their own as well as with a Recon card.

It allowed a nice flow of cards when we were using them for the first time.

Phill


Cool Idea!
We have played something similar in our Seven Years Wars Epic battles and it really works great, but have not tried it for Memoir '44 Overlord.

Richard Borg


Hi Richard - so when can we hope to see the C&C 7YW Epic commercially available? Rolling Eyes
      
    
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