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Blade327
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  Problems with this game Mon, 06 August 2012 22:32
I'm a bit disappointed with this game in solo mode. Was this game designed to actually be fun??? It's a downright joke at times. This last game, which I aborted out of anger, I had my last four attacks result in 1 hit. One freaking hit!!!! The computer? His last four attacks resulted in 8. How in God's name are you supposed to win a game with lopsided cr@p like that? Granted, that's the worst I have experienced, but the computer always has an edge in die rolls and cards. Am I doing something wrong here? Is there an "Impossibly Hard" option that I accidentally turned on? I know I'm a rookie, but it shouldn't be this hard. I'm about ready to delete this trash from my PC.

That being said, I noticed the human/human games are much more balanced. I felt I actually had a chance in those games.

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 06 August 2012 22:58]

      
Helcat
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Re:Problems with this game Mon, 06 August 2012 23:04
Quote:


I'm a bit disappointed with this game in solo mode.


That is a shame.

Quote:


Was this game designed to actually be fun???



It is.

Quote:


This last game, which I aborted out of anger, I had my last four attacks result in 1 hit. One f@cking hit!!!! The computer? His last four attacks resulted in 8. How in God's name are you supposed to win a game with lopsided cr@p like that?



Well the dice rolls have been tested (as you can see in the topic by Hamon Serrano) and they are statistically correct. Statistically does not mean a series of good or bad dice rolls can't happen. It actually means that this kind of series will happen now and then.

Quote:


Granted, that's the worst I have experienced, but the computer always has an edge in die rolls and cards.



The computer has the same chances as you have.

Quote:


Am I doing something wrong here?



You can't do anything about bad luck, however you can improve your skills which will bring your wins above average.

Quote:


Is there an "Impossibly Hard" option that I accidentally turned on?



No there is none. Actually the artificial intelligence is easier to beat than a good human player.

Quote:


I know I'm a rookie, but it shouldn't be this hard. I'm about ready to delete this trash from my PC.



That would be sad.

Quote:


That being said, I noticed the human/human games are much more balanced. I felt I actually had a chance in those games.



You have, and if you practise a bit more you will find the AI easier to beat than a good human player. Start with the easier and 50-50 maps. Look at the replays that you can find on your user account and learn from them.

Good Luck

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 06 August 2012 23:06]

      
Blade327
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Re:Problems with this game Mon, 06 August 2012 23:15
Helcat wrote on Mon, 06 August 2012 14:04

Quote:


I'm a bit disappointed with this game in solo mode.


That is a shame.

Quote:


Was this game designed to actually be fun???



It is.

Quote:


This last game, which I aborted out of anger, I had my last four attacks result in 1 hit. One f@cking hit!!!! The computer? His last four attacks resulted in 8. How in God's name are you supposed to win a game with lopsided cr@p like that?



Well the dice rolls have been tested (as you can see in the topic by Hamon Serrano) and they are statistically correct. Statistically does not mean a series of good or bad dice rolls can't happen. It actually means that this kind of series will happen now and then.

Quote:


Granted, that's the worst I have experienced, but the computer always has an edge in die rolls and cards.



The computer has the same chances as you have.

Quote:


Am I doing something wrong here?



You can't do anything about bad luck, however you can improve your skills which will bring your wins above average.

Quote:


Is there an "Impossibly Hard" option that I accidentally turned on?



No there is none. Actually the artificial intelligence is easier to beat than a good human player.

Quote:


I know I'm a rookie, but it shouldn't be this hard. I'm about ready to delete this trash from my PC.



That would be sad.

Quote:


That being said, I noticed the human/human games are much more balanced. I felt I actually had a chance in those games.



You have, and if you practise a bit more you will find the AI easier to beat than a good human player. Start with the easier and 50-50 maps. Look at the replays that you can find on your user account and learn from them.

Good Luck


Oh, I was just ranting after a losing streak. A little frustration got the better of me. Just ignore it. Actually, it IS a very impressive game. I just need to improve.

I also own the board game and it is one of the best war games I have owned. Days of Wonder makes great games.
Razz

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 06 August 2012 23:16]

      
Helcat
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Re:Problems with this game Tue, 07 August 2012 00:11
Great,

Looking forward to challenge you with both good and bad dice.

Razz
      
tank commander
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Re:Problems with this game Wed, 19 September 2012 12:27
Were not the die rolls stats from Hanno complied from games with live opponents?

I have played the solo version and it does seem the bot gets the better rolls and cards way too often for me to be comfortable with.

Also, just because the ends stats of a game appear to be somewhat even, I wonder as in many endgames targeting a 1 fig unit to win often results in miss city. Also the tactic of cutting off a unit's retreat is often rewarded with less hits than if you fired on it without surrounding it.

In one game I had over 20 rolls vs tagrers where flags would be hits but only rolled 1 of those - and little else in the way of hits too!! So I do not trust the bot mode of this game either.

I would rather see an expected hits and what your actual hits were during a game rather than an overall end game hit rate.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Problems with this game Wed, 19 September 2012 12:53
tank commander wrote on Wed, 19 September 2012 14:27


I would rather see an expected hits and what your actual hits were during a game rather than an overall end game hit rate.


Well, my expected hits are obviously 100%!! Cool Laughing

Sadly that doesn't usually happen (or ever, really). Very Happy
      
sam1812
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Re:Problems with this game Wed, 19 September 2012 13:51
I used to question the randomness of the die-roller, but somebody at DOW pointed out that the die-roller is serving random rolls to many simultaneous games and doesn't know what player is calling for each roll. If that's true, then any streakiness would be distributed across multiple games, with rolls being requested by multiple players independently of each other. So, even if the rolls aren't truly random, they would have to even out in the long run.

As for getting luckier cards, I assume that each card in the deck is assigned a numeric value from 1 to 60, and every time a card is drawn, it corresponds to a random number. For the bot to receive better cards or timelier cards, there would need to be some sort of "malicious" code that says, "The bot needs extra dice. Give it a Firefight." Or, "The bot needs to order in two sections. Give it DHQ." Or, "Double the bot's probability of drawing cards 51-60." I have a hard time believing that DOW would have done anything like that.
      
Phread
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Re:Problems with this game Wed, 19 September 2012 22:29
I would hope the card algorithm is "deck" based - not individual cards.
I'd expect a virtual deck of cards to be randomised or shuffled, then cards dealt from that deck until it is shuffled again.
      
tank commander
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Re:Problems with this game Wed, 19 September 2012 22:34
I was informed by another player of the same scenario played against the bot three times in a row:

In on the first turn of all 3 games the bot played Inf Assault and then rolled 6 hits on 6 shots on infantry.

It is information like that and first hand experience while playing the bot that makes me question the randomness factor.

I think it is possible that the bot may be programmed (via timely favorable rolls and draws) to be able to better challenge live opponents. I do know that it is very difficult to program AI to be able to play as well as a live opponent otherwise.



[Mis à jour le: Wed, 19 September 2012 22:45]

      
trentdep
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 04:51
Without putting a lot of thought into it, or seeking empirical evidence - it certainly makes sense that the bot would need a programmed advantage in rolls and cards in order to compete, given the limitations of AI in general.

      
Phread
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 07:49
I have played a lot ( >1500 ) solo games and I do not think the AI has been given a built in advantage.

The AI has - from time to time - kicked my butt. Shocked Shocked Shocked
The AI has sometimes got exceptional dice and cards, but sometimes (very rarely) so have I. I have beaten the AI more than it has beaten me.

There is no bias, the AI has a disadvantage it is too aggressive and reckless. It isn't getting special dice or cards.
      
Jeronimon
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 11:00
I too in my gut believe the AI does not get an advantage in cards and dice.

The AI however does go for a maximum of dice thrown. This leads to intimidating attacks and lots of units leaving cover. The longer you play the less intimidating Johnny and Hermann are and the more you will win from them.

But on occasion it will seem as if they are very lucky. For me that also happens with human opponents. I have seen unbelievable dicerolls for and against me from time to time. As in real life/war luck plays a big role.
      
Quit2
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 11:12
When johnny gets good cards and dice, we believe the game is rigged.
When our opponent gets good cards and dice, he's just lucky.
When we get good cards and dice, we congratulate ourselves about how good we put those good cards to use, to maximize their effect, and how good it was of us to go for the kill even though the odds were against us, instead of running for cover.

Johnny is a good average player. He's not one of the best players, but he is not one of the worst either. His biggest disadvantage is that he always uses the same strategies, which makes him predictable for more experienced players.

If you really believe Johnny is programmed to get better cards, play against human opponents.
Then you might start wondering if higher ranked players get better cards and dice. I've actually had opponents ask me exactly that.
      
Quit2
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 11:17
And it has been said multiple times on the record by people from DoW: the dice throwing mechanism does not know for who it is rolling a dice.It does not know for which game it is rolling a dice, and it does not know what the game situation is.

      
clorofila
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 12:18
Quit2 wrote on Thu, 20 September 2012 10:12

[...]
Then you might start wondering if higher ranked players get better cards and dice. I've actually had opponents ask me exactly that.


... and I never got a straight answer from you, Wim!
Laughing
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 12:57
There is no question with this...even though the question comes up all the time!!

The AI gets no special treatment. None. Even if it seems like they are getting better cards and lucky rolls, there is no advantage given to the AI (or higher ranked players).

DoW crew have said this fact many times and it hasn't changed. There is nothing special in the program for anyone. Smile
      
Quit2
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 16:19
clorofila wrote on Thu, 20 September 2012 12:18

Quit2 wrote on Thu, 20 September 2012 10:12

[...]
Then you might start wondering if higher ranked players get better cards and dice. I've actually had opponents ask me exactly that.


... and I never got a straight answer from you, Wim!
Laughing

Well of course generals get better cards and dice. After all, we have played alot to get to this rank, and the more you invest in this game (by buying Gold to play), the better the dice and cards are that you get.
And since Johnny has more games on his record than any other player, he gets the best cards and dice ... this is actually a bug, since Johnny did not pay for his games. Laughing
Anyone care to create a bug report?
Rolling Eyes

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 20 September 2012 16:20]

      
LooneyLlama
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 17:58
The AI needs better cards and dice. It's play is inferior to a human opponent. As Phread stated, it is way too aggressive to be very challenging. Maybe in the next update they can program an advantage in cards and dice to compensate for it's poor play.
      
tinsoldier
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 18:34
LooneyLlama écrit le Thu, 20 September 2012 17:58

As Phread stated, it is way too aggressive to be very challenging. Maybe in the next update they can program an advantage in cards and dice to compensate for it's poor play.


From my experience, I would say the AI plays to maximize the number of dice thrown. So it may give you the feeling that its hit ratio is above average, when in fact it is its number of dice thrown which is above average.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 18:42
LooneyLlama wrote on Thu, 20 September 2012 19:58

The AI needs better cards and dice. It's play is inferior to a human opponent. As Phread stated, it is way too aggressive to be very challenging. Maybe in the next update they can program an advantage in cards and dice to compensate for it's poor play.


I'm not sure DoW would program an advantage into the system for the AI...look how upset people are about this issue even though there is no advantage for the computer! Razz If DoW actually did program better cards or dice for the AI they would have a lot of angry fans. Smile

From the very start, the focus of Memoir '44 Online has been to play other people from around the world. The AI is great for a quick game and can be helpful for testing a new scenario you designed, but I don't think the intention was ever for it to be super competitive. That's what all the people online are for! Cool
      
LooneyLlama
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 19:46
Ras,

I was joking. You're right on both counts. DOW would never program the AI with an advantage. There is too much complaining now. Since I enjoy writing a lot of scenarios for SFTF, the AI does come in handy in play testing before I expose them to the paying public. Even at that, I try to play a human opponent before the scenario is finally published, due to the errors that the AI makes that a human would not. This enables me to offer something that the community won't be wasting their money on.

P.S. If you or anyone would like to playtest any of my scenarios before they are published let me know with a P.M. and I will put you on my buddy list. I'm a little leery about inviting someone to spend money on a scenario they haven't seen. These scenarios are in my private collection and are not available yet. They have been playtested extensively and I would like a critique before I open them to the public. Thanks.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 20 September 2012 19:56
LooneyLlama wrote on Thu, 20 September 2012 21:46

Ras,

I was joking.


Oops! Laughing Embarassed Sorry about that...I guess I was preaching to the choir! Very Happy

Quote:

You're right on both counts. DOW would never program the AI with an advantage. There is too much complaining now. Since I enjoy writing a lot of scenarios for SFTF, the AI does come in handy in play testing before I expose them to the paying public. Even at that, I try to play a human opponent before the scenario is finally published, due to the errors that the AI makes that a human would not. This enables me to offer something that the community won't be wasting their money on.

P.S. If you or anyone would like to playtest any of my scenarios before they are published let me know with a P.M. and I will put you on my buddy list. I'm a little leery about inviting someone to spend money on a scenario they haven't seen. These scenarios are in my private collection and are not available yet. They have been playtested extensively and I would like a critique before I open them to the public. Thanks.


Sadly I haven't had much time lately to play online! I'm trying to work on the next FAQ Update (taking a break from it right now, actually) and I have a few other projects I'm working on. Along with work and life, it hasn't left me much time to play Memoir '44 Online.

If I find the time later on, I'll let you know and we can test some of your scenarios. Until then, have fun and good luck with your designs!!
      
trentdep
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Re:Problems with this game Fri, 21 September 2012 02:06
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 20 September 2012 13:56



Sadly I haven't had much time lately to play online! I'm trying to work on the next FAQ Update (taking a break from it right now, actually) and I have a few other projects I'm working on. Along with work and life, it hasn't left me much time to play Memoir '44 Online.




OK - wait... There is life *other* than Memoir '44 Online?...
      
trentdep
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Re:Problems with this game Fri, 21 September 2012 02:09

Phread... I think you had us all convinced right about at : " >1500 "...
      
Jeronimon
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Re:Problems with this game Fri, 21 September 2012 07:03
I would like to make jokes about it too, but some of the newer players are convinced the AI and higher ranking officers get better dice and cards. I recently encountered such a player who said the dice were rigged for me. I thought he was making a joke but it turned out he was serious (or taking the joke way to far.)

So here goes: if you kiss up to the generals enough they do let you in on the secret of how to get better cards and dice. I am serious. No really I am! Cross my heart and hope to die!



Very Happy


At Eric/LooneyLlama: you know this already but I can't say it enough. If you need to play test anything invite me. Even if you have only two infantry on a blank canvas you would manage to make that interesting. Wink
      
Artimon
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Re:Problems with this game Sat, 22 September 2012 10:14
Jeronimon écrit le Fri, 21 September 2012 07:03




At Eric/LooneyLlama: you know this already but I can't say it enough. If you need to play test anything invite me. Even if you have only two infantry on a blank canvas you would manage to make that interesting. Wink


At Eric/LooneyLlama : I would be also glad to test your scenarios before publishing them.
If tou see me on Online when you want to test them, just invite me
      
Freeloading Phill
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Re:Problems with this game Sun, 23 September 2012 04:33
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 21 September 2012 02:42

I'm not sure DoW would program an advantage into the system for the AI...look how upset people are about this issue even though there is no advantage for the computer! Razz If DoW actually did program better cards or dice for the AI they would have a lot of angry fans. Smile

I think there might be less complaining if they said Johnny had a slight advantage to make him challenging. Most complaints are " it's supposed to be fair!" and I think they would mostly be replaced with a simple "oh that's just his advantage". Smile

Phill
      
trentdep
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Re:Problems with this game Sun, 23 September 2012 17:55
I don't know - I kind of like the ~ Rank Has Its Privileges ~ thing...

" It might appear that Johnny's dice are rigged, but that's just because you haven't reached Captain yet - at which time the rolls and cards afforded you will equal those afforded Johnny..."

Yeah - that works - gives them some incentive to get those Tigers over Arnhem bridge, and perhaps cuts down on the whining a bit...

Of course another option would be to just restrict the chat option to Captains and above?...
      
JFKoski
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Re:Problems with this game Sun, 23 September 2012 18:38
1. Bad dice. Sour Grapes.

2. My win % is 60%. Against my buddy f2f + online, it's 53%. My Online games as Lt. Colonel were 62%. If you want a game you can win 80%, then find something else.

3. The Robot, Johnny plays the best card, so you'll seldom see him play dig-in or Recon. If your connection craps out, and you come back, you'll see he played your best, even if it wasn't time for it.

4. Johnny plays offense, not defense. I lost connection, and the opponent kept playing, and he lost to Johnny, on a scenario I hadn't won as Allies. I went to the Replay and found he'd agressively moved his units forward in the open and the opponent wasn't able to take advantage. So Johnny tore him up on the baseline where guy couldn't retreat.

5. Some games are short, so the best-card or most dice strategy can pay off. I was looking at some of my After Action Reports, and found one that said it was over in 5 Rounds (9-10 cards played).

[Mis à jour le: Sun, 23 September 2012 18:40]

      
Helcat
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Re:Problems with this game Thu, 27 September 2012 03:06
Jeronimon wrote on Fri, 21 September 2012 07:03

I would like to make jokes about it too, but some of the newer players are convinced the AI and higher ranking officers get better dice and cards. I recently encountered such a player who said the dice were rigged for me. I thought he was making a joke but it turned out he was serious (or taking the joke way to far.)

So here goes: if you kiss up to the generals enough they do let you in on the secret of how to get better cards and dice. I am serious. No really I am! Cross my heart and hope to die!
Very Happy





Jeronimon,

We need some more cake in the Brigadier Bar.
Are you, as always, divirting your energy in another thread?

I still have some secrets for you in the Brigadier Bar. I think they are hidden behind the cobwebs.

Wink

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 27 September 2012 03:13]

      
player721455
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Re:Problems with this game Sun, 30 September 2012 02:36
Bunk! This game is bunk.

DoW is like a drug dealer...get you hooked, then sell you the junk stuff.

When I first started the online version, I played well and got decent dice...I climbed in the ranks. Once I got to a certain level (at one point I was ranked 16th) the dice just continually went against me.

Now I'm lucky to get in the 30 percentiles while my opponents consistently get 40-50 percent...so I'm really just losing games to the dice. Not a game or two...consistently!

Either their system is broken (ie. cheating programming...and yes, Johnny gets BS dice!) or the game is broken...funny, I don't get consistently bad dice like this on the board.

Glad my tokens are used...won't be back!
      
sdnative
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Re:Problems with this game Sun, 30 September 2012 03:42
player721455 wrote on Sat, 29 September 2012 17:36

Bunk! This game is bunk.

DoW is like a drug dealer...get you hooked, then sell you the junk stuff.

When I first started the online version, I played well and got decent dice...I climbed in the ranks. Once I got to a certain level (at one point I was ranked 16th) the dice just continually went against me.

Now I'm lucky to get in the 30 percentiles while my opponents consistently get 40-50 percent...so I'm really just losing games to the dice. Not a game or two...consistently!

Either their system is broken (ie. cheating programming...and yes, Johnny gets BS dice!) or the game is broken...funny, I don't get consistently bad dice like this on the board.

Glad my tokens are used...won't be back!


If you read what a lot of us are saying is that most of us do not pay much attention to the point system.
Your rank shows you as a 1st Lt. you still have a ways to go.
I have won 10 games is a row and just recently lost 6 in a row
so I can feel your pain.

[Mis à jour le: Sun, 30 September 2012 03:43]

      
Jeronimon
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Re:Problems with this game Sun, 30 September 2012 13:01
player721455 wrote on Sun, 30 September 2012 02:36

Bunk! This game is bunk.

DoW is like a drug dealer...get you hooked, then sell you the junk stuff.

When I first started the online version, I played well and got decent dice...I climbed in the ranks. Once I got to a certain level (at one point I was ranked 16th) the dice just continually went against me.

Now I'm lucky to get in the 30 percentiles while my opponents consistently get 40-50 percent...so I'm really just losing games to the dice. Not a game or two...consistently!

Either their system is broken (ie. cheating programming...and yes, Johnny gets BS dice!) or the game is broken...funny, I don't get consistently bad dice like this on the board.

Glad my tokens are used...won't be back!

You have every right to feel this way, because bad luck streaks do happen. But if you stick with it you will get your luck back and get average and good dice.

I have to say that with only 44 games played I would definitely stick with it because it will turn around.

But it is your opinion and money and I respect that.
(But I enjoy this game so much I will always try to get someone to stay, my bad. Cool )
      
clorofila
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Re:Problems with this game Sun, 30 September 2012 23:04
It's pointless: it's always easier to blame someone else. With internet, almost too easy...
      
Nygaard
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Re:Problems with this game Mon, 01 October 2012 10:07
player721455 wrote on Sun, 30 September 2012 02:36

Bunk! This game is bunk.

DoW is like a drug dealer...get you hooked, then sell you the junk stuff.

When I first started the online version, I played well and got decent dice...I climbed in the ranks. Once I got to a certain level (at one point I was ranked 16th) the dice just continually went against me.

Now I'm lucky to get in the 30 percentiles while my opponents consistently get 40-50 percent...so I'm really just losing games to the dice. Not a game or two...consistently!

Either their system is broken (ie. cheating programming...and yes, Johnny gets BS dice!) or the game is broken...funny, I don't get consistently bad dice like this on the board.

Glad my tokens are used...won't be back!


As one of the most seriously hooked Mem44 players, I'd say we here have a clear case of "Dice Rage"... Happens to all of us.
I've learned to be philosophical about it, if I loose a game because of the dice, it wasn't my fault. If I loose a game where I had the dice... Then...
But any way, if you don't like dice, this is not the game for you.
And the computer gets just as bad dice as the rest of us.
...And if you're only a 1st Lieutenant, you haven't tried bad luck yet. Wait till you've had 10 losses in a row.

But hey, I hope you find the game for you.
      
clorofila
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Historien accompli

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Re:Problems with this game Mon, 01 October 2012 11:44
Nygaard wrote on Mon, 01 October 2012 09:07

But any way, if you don't like dice, this is not the game for you.


The quintessential sentence about Memoir44, that so many players should consider - even a few veteran ones!
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Victoire totale

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Re:Problems with this game Mon, 01 October 2012 14:02
player721455 wrote on Sun, 30 September 2012 02:36

Bunk! This game is bunk.

DoW is like a drug dealer...get you hooked, then sell you the junk stuff.

When I first started the online version, I played well and got decent dice...I climbed in the ranks. Once I got to a certain level (at one point I was ranked 16th) the dice just continually went against me.

Now I'm lucky to get in the 30 percentiles while my opponents consistently get 40-50 percent...so I'm really just losing games to the dice. Not a game or two...consistently!

Either their system is broken (ie. cheating programming...and yes, Johnny gets BS dice!) or the game is broken...funny, I don't get consistently bad dice like this on the board.

Glad my tokens are used...won't be back!


Don't worry, everybody gets bad dice every now or then.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/hitlerdice.jpg

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 01 October 2012 14:02]

      
Jeronimon
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Re:Problems with this game Mon, 01 October 2012 14:27
The one thing I will take away from this is "Dice Rage". Smile


Be careful playing M44, it might have side effects, one of which is Dice Rage.

Dice Rage
The inability to oversee random events, symptoms: not trusting anything with a microchip in it, long rants about unfairness and a paranoid attitude against anyone named Johnny and Hermann.

Wink
      
trentdep
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October 2011
Re:Problems with this game Tue, 02 October 2012 19:23
Hermann?...

I didn't know anyone above Lt and/or 30 games played him - he never rolls over 20% ( Johnny gets all the good dice ) and is hardly a challenge...
      
trentdep
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October 2011
Re:Problems with this game Tue, 02 October 2012 19:37
(( BTW - Was very nice that none of us pointed out that - currently, #16 on the provisional side would fall in around #440 on the established side ))

Shh.. I think he's listening...

Come on player ( insert any series of six digits here ) - what is the least expensive pack? $10 or something?... Looks like you played nearly 6 months for free !!

Not sure what the Real Money exchange rate is for any given price level, but I'm pretty sure I'd have to stay up a lot later than I'd like in order to play enough games and burn enough ingots to even spend a quarter in one night...

Put together a string of 4 or 5 wins, and you'd be amazed how cheap those ingots start to look!
      
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