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Dietrich von Kleist
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the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 09:59
The Brits have their "Stiff Upper Lip", the Japanese shout their "Banzai Cry" and the US marines in the pacific have "Gung-Ho".

Now in the Equipment Pack the French (however they were conquered in no time) seem to be one of the bravest soldiers in the world due to their Furia Francese. The Italian Artillery expose exceptional bravery, just like the valiant Polish Cavalry.

It seems that the Jerries must have had all the good dice and cards! How else could they have been so successfully in battle? In comparison with other nationalities they don't seem to have special qualities. They are not brave nor fierce. They are even small in posture if you compare their minis with the others (the Japanese figures are small too, but then they are small in posture). They had to lose the war in the end! I only wonder why it took so long?

Not all German soldiers were Nazis. A lot of them fought with extreme courage and military excellence. Maybe it's politically incorrect to admit that the Krauts did have military qualities, but wouldn't it be courageous of DOW to translate these qualities in special nation rules for the Germans. ...And a miniature as tall as the G.I. Smile


I hope I don't step on too much toes again.
      
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 10:16
The german minis are just bent over their handheld machine gun. They crouch to appear smaller to be less of a target to shoot at. It's just smart.
The GI is standing up very straight ... he may look bold but it is not very smart in war to make such a big target of yourself.

The main strenghts of the german army were:
- their good equipment
- their mobility: they made it a very dynamic war opposed to what the world was used to up until WW2.

The second point is reflected in the blitz rule: axis armor moves 3 while allied armor moves 2. And in the desert rule where brittish armor moves 2.

The first point is reflected in many scenarios, where they have SWA, more artillery, ...

I just don't feel their is a need for a special rule for the German army.
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 11:06
Quit2 wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 10:16

The german minis are just bent over their handheld machine gun. They crouch to appear smaller to be less of a target to shoot at. It's just smart.
The GI is standing up very straight ... he may look bold but it is not very smart in war to make such a big target of yourself.

The main strenghts of the german army were:
- their good equipment
- their mobility: they made it a very dynamic war opposed to what the world was used to up until WW2.

The second point is reflected in the blitz rule: axis armor moves 3 while allied armor moves 2. And in the desert rule where brittish armor moves 2.

The first point is reflected in many scenarios, where they have SWA, more artillery, ...

I just don't feel their is a need for a special rule for the German army.


If you compare the height of both their crotches either the G.I. have very long legs or the German is a small guy. But this is of course of less importance.

Saying that the success of the German army is only due to good equipment and mobility is i.m.o. incorrect.

If you read some books about e.g. Waffen SS units on the eastern front the least one can say they fought bravely. They often got orders not to retreat and fight until the last man standing, which they did. They also fought with extreme bravery (not only Waffen SS, but also units like the Falschirmjaeger or Afrika Korps).

So if the French get their Furia Francese I think the bravery and fighting skill/attitude of the Germans must be translated in special rules too.

Maybe on the eastern front there should be a "Wir halten Stellung" rule for the Germans (cfr the Japanese ). Or for special German units (like Waffen SS or paratroopers ) it might be interesting to let them fight with an extra dice e.g. in close combat.

I only wanted to say that several expansions state uncommon valor for several armies leaving the Germans look like a mediocre army. And this is i.m.o. not correct at all.
      
van Voort
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 15:15
The base game is essentially US v Germans.

Later expansion packs add the unique national bonuses, and, at some point, expansion inflation may set in.

My understanding is that the French were given a national bonus because the game is very popular in France and this was demanded by the market.


Now, the advantages of the US do not translate well into game terms - because that advantage will principally be in logistics, and that would show in a strategic or campaign game but not in individual battles.

The Germans have early advantages (blitz) but I'd disagree with Quit2 that their equipment was overall better. They had some very good units, but the bulk of their army was foot infantry with horse drawn supply and artillery. They would have more elite armour around, but again no national bonus.



But if you think the Germans and the US are badly off, then consider the Russians - who are the only nation to have a national characteristic that makes them worse.


Roughly, I would put the various nations in M44 as follows (with the caveat of course that this is based on how good they are in the game)

Tier 1:
US Marines: Activations win battles and there are no disadvantages to it so gung ho is clearly the best (anyone really want to argue otherwise?)

Tier 2:
Japanese: Your infantry are a terror, yes sometimes you cannot retreat out of a bad situation but it is a net+

Tier 3:
British: You get one extra die on defence in certain circumstances. Not something to build a strategy around, but useful in certain situations.

It would be very useful where British infantry is fighting other infantry from a fixed fortified position. Tends not to be so good in the desert where tanks can stand off and shoot from distance.

Tier 3.5:
Italians: Better than nothing at all, but not great. Being better at retreating does not help you win, though it can get a unit out of a vulnerable position
Artillery Bravery tends not to come up, though if you had mobile Italian artillery they'd be a bit more dangerous


Tier 4:
Standard Germans and Allies

Tier 5:
Russians with Commissar.
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 16:04
van Voort wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 15:15

My understanding is that the French were given a national bonus because the game is very popular in France and this was demanded by the market.


Oh. Rolling Eyes If that's the case, if there are commercial elements in play, just ignore what I wrote.

By the way, there are also a lot of belgian players. Although it took the Germans only 18 day to get belgium on his knees, couldn't they get some heroic feature too? Twisted Evil
      
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 16:17
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 18:04

van Voort wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 15:15

My understanding is that the French were given a national bonus because the game is very popular in France and this was demanded by the market.


Oh. Rolling Eyes If that's the case, if there are commercial elements in play, just ignore what I wrote.

By the way, there are also a lot of belgian players. Although it took the Germans only 18 day to get belgium on his knees, couldn't they get some heroic feature too? Twisted Evil


Are we talking about the French Resistance units or the Free French Army?

If we're talking about the French Resistance, that ability was created by Richard Borg from the very start of the game and there couldn't have been any 'demand by the market'. Cool

If we're talking about the Free French, or the French units from 1940, I think the new rule is pretty cool. It's true that there were many brave units who could probably be awarded this ability (the Gurkha troops come to mind), but I like the way this rule works in the game.

I'm sure that Richard could come up with special rules for the German army as well, but notice that the normal American troops on the Western Front don't get any special abilities either. I don't think it has anything to do with politics or fear...it just has to do with the game designer's choice. Smile

Maybe some time in the future Richard will chose to add an ability for those units, but it might be seen as something that would require a huge re-working of all the Western Front scenarios. Maybe that's why it hasn't been done yet! Razz
      
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 16:55
Hi Guys,

It's funny that this thread got started when I was thinking the same thing. In my next scenario that we will be playing in our Mediterranean tournament, I have incorporated a special ability for the Axis troops. By using one of the badges(I'll let you guys figure it out), and increasing the # of figures, you can make an Axis unit much more powerful. And in this scenario, it is exactly how these units operated.

Also, you can somewhat give a special advantage to Axis units online by making the Allied armor move only 2 hexes. I know this isn't a unique feature, but mobile artillery can be used to make it seem like the Axis forces have a special ability.

I also like to try to stay away from using the Air Power card. It is way too powerful for the Allies. I wish there was a way to adjust the number of dice for each scenario.

Finally, isn't the Tiger tank a kind of special ability for the Axis? I know it's really a unit so maybe it doesn't qualify.
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 18:04
Using home rules allows us to do what want with this game. The allies can even recruit Hellboy and the axis can use their flying saucers (Hanebau). Cool

When M44 started there were indeed 2 standard forces with the same basic features. There were also a few exceptions. Every expansion/theatre brought new units with new rules. This added more complexity to the game, which I like. But how far can we go until we've completely lost the beauty of the original simplicity?

The boardgame is starting to look more and more like a tabletop wargame, but can it compete with games like Flames of War? DOW should i.m.o. start to think about how far they can go with making exceptions on the rules.
      
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 18:49
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 20:04

Using home rules allows us to do what want with this game. The allies can even recruit Hellboy and the axis can use their flying saucers (Hanebau). Cool

When M44 started there were indeed 2 standard forces with the same basic features. There were also a few exceptions. Every expansion/theatre brought new units with new rules. This added more complexity to the game, which I like. But how far can we go until we've completely lost the beauty of the original simplicity?



Like any game with expansions, players have to decide what they like and don't like. I know that some people don't like expansions and would rather just see new games come out, but personally I really like all of the exciting additions that Memoir '44 offers! One of the great things about the game system is how all of the Army Packs only add a few new rules.

If you want to get more complicated, you can start playing Breakthrough battles (which sometimes add rules from several expansions at once) or Overlord (which has its own set of rules), but even the Campaign system mostly only uses one or two expansions!

Although I agree that Memoir can get complicated if you want it to, players can pick the level of difficulty and complexity they want to play with for each battle they play. I think that's a great way of doing things!! Very Happy

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 10 October 2012 18:49]

      
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 18:54
Quote:

The boardgame is starting to look more and more like a tabletop wargame, but can it compete with games like Flames of War? DOW should i.m.o. start to think about how far they can go with making exceptions on the rules.


Since I've never played Flames of War, I can't speak to that, but with the newer expansions for Memoir '44 they aren't 'making exceptions' to the rules most of the time. Richard is creating new rules or adding new things to the game!

As far as how long DoW can keep producing expansions, I sure hope it's for a very long time still!! I can't imagine what Richard still has in his bag of tricks, but it always adds to the enjoyment of Memoir '44 and I hope he gets the chance to keep his ideas coming!! Cool
      
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 19:24
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 16:04

van Voort wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 15:15

My understanding is that the French were given a national bonus because the game is very popular in France and this was demanded by the market.


Oh. Rolling Eyes If that's the case, if there are commercial elements in play, just ignore what I wrote.

By the way, there are also a lot of belgian players. Although it took the Germans only 18 day to get belgium on his knees, couldn't they get some heroic feature too? Twisted Evil

My homemade Belgian army rules:
- All belgian units are also hit on stars.
- Belgian troops can never have more than one elite unit per scenario
- When Belgian units retreat check for losses: roll one die per retreated hex. All stars rolled destroy one figure from the retreating unit.

That should somehow reflect the strenght of the Belgian army during WW2 Wink
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 19:28
[quote title=Quit2 wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 19:24]
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 16:04


My homemade Belgian army rules:
- All belgian units are also hit on stars.
- Belgian troops can never have more than one elite unit per scenario
- When Belgian units retreat check for losses: roll one die per retreated hex. All stars rolled destroy one figure from the retreating unit.

That should somehow reflect the strenght of the Belgian army during WW2 Wink



There goes our heroic feature Laughing
      
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 19:37
[quote title=Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 19:28]
Quit2 wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 19:24

Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 16:04


My homemade Belgian army rules:
- All belgian units are also hit on stars.
- Belgian troops can never have more than one elite unit per scenario
- When Belgian units retreat check for losses: roll one die per retreated hex. All stars rolled destroy one figure from the retreating unit.

That should somehow reflect the strenght of the Belgian army during WW2 Wink



There goes our heroic feature Laughing

But no-one matches our level of self relativation.
So I forgot one rule: If the Belgians loose a scenario with less than 3 medals difference, the game is considered a Belgian victory(at least for the Belgians it is).
Wink
      
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 20:09
[quote title=Quit2 wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 19:37]
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 19:28

Quit2 wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 19:24

Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 16:04


My homemade Belgian army rules:
- All belgian units are also hit on stars.
- Belgian troops can never have more than one elite unit per scenario
- When Belgian units retreat check for losses: roll one die per retreated hex. All stars rolled destroy one figure from the retreating unit.

That should somehow reflect the strenght of the Belgian army during WW2 Wink



There goes our heroic feature Laughing

But no-one matches our level of self relativation.
So I forgot one rule: If the Belgians loose a scenario with less than 3 medals difference, the game is considered a Belgian victory(at least for the Belgians it is).
Wink


Laughing Laughing Laughing

Always look on the bright side of war.
      
van Voort
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 20:20
LooneyLlama wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 14:55

Hi In my next scenario that we will be playing in our Mediterranean tournament, I have incorporated a special ability for the Axis troops. By using one of the badges(I'll let you guys figure it out), and increasing the # of figures, you can make an Axis unit much more powerful.


Sniper.

Do I get a cookie?

One not covered in Llama spit?
      
LooneyLlama
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 20:44

Van Voort,

Not sniper and no cookie! Though in my Stalingrad scenario I did make the Russian sniper 2 figures to depict Vasily Zaitsev. It worked out really well in that scenario.
      
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 20:49
LooneyLlama wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 22:44


Van Voort,

Not sniper and no cookie! Though in my Stalingrad scenario I did make the Russian sniper 2 figures to depict Vasily Zaitsev. It worked out really well in that scenario.


Is it a 3-4 figure Artillery unit with the Mobile Artillery badge? Rolling Eyes
      
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 22:21
Is it a french resistance badge on German units?
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 22:29
Quit2 wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 22:21

Is it a french resistance badge on German units?


Or a Furia Francese badge?
      
LooneyLlama
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 22:32
Nope, neither are right. I have used French resistence badge with 4 figures to depict regular French units in some of my scenarios. Ras, I've never tried a 3-4 artillery unit with mobile artillery badge. That would be one tough unit to eliminate! I have used a 1 figure mobile artillery unit. You get a lot of action in trying to eliminate it, though the unit can still be very effective.

Quit2, I love the idea of French resistance badges on German units! That would work well.

I have another scenario in the Med. Front where I placed Japanese badges on U.S. specialized infantry. When it's played I want everyone to realize the contributions of Japanese-Americans to the war effort. They fought heroically in Italy. They play just like U.S. special forces, not like Japanese units.

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 10 October 2012 22:41]

      
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Re:the missing expansion Wed, 10 October 2012 22:35
By the way, I think the game bugs if you try more than 2 figs on artillery ... But I have not tested it recently, so they might have fixed the bug.
      
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Re:the missing expansion Thu, 11 October 2012 04:04
Quit2 wrote on Thu, 11 October 2012 00:35

By the way, I think the game bugs if you try more than 2 figs on artillery ... But I have not tested it recently, so they might have fixed the bug.


Technically it's actually not a bug!! It's the way the game was designed... Very Happy

Don't forget that the Expert Mode is still meant to follow official rules. Even though we can be creative and make the game do certain things we want, there will be a limit to our freedom.

When Expert Mode first came out, it gave players complete freedom (kind of like Vassel) but after testing it for a while DoW decided to enforce the rules for players instead. Personally, I like having the rules enforced because without that we ended up playing people who would break all the rules simply because they could!

This means that we can stretch rules but I don't think DoW will put any time into fixing a 'bug' that prevents you from breaking normal rules. They will probably leave mistakes like being able to have a 4-figure French Resistance unit, though. Razz

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 11 October 2012 07:27]

      
sdnative
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Re:the missing expansion Thu, 11 October 2012 06:29
The Germans on a tactical side were second to none in most cases and this can be reflected by simply allowing them to have more cards.
Give the French 4 cards and the Germans 6 and see how the game turns out.

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 11 October 2012 06:29]

      
Almilcar
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Re:the missing expansion Thu, 11 October 2012 07:47
Hello,

even though I do agree with Dietrich, we must remember that there are Actions like the "Blitz" rules that reflects the supremacy of the Jerries in the battlefield.

I can't recall more, but I'm sure they do exist already implemented in the game.

Cheers
      
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Re:the missing expansion Thu, 11 October 2012 09:52
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 11 October 2012 04:04

Quit2 wrote on Thu, 11 October 2012 00:35

By the way, I think the game bugs if you try more than 2 figs on artillery ... But I have not tested it recently, so they might have fixed the bug.


Technically it's actually not a bug!! It's the way the game was designed... Very Happy



Actually, if I were business responsible for the application, I would consider it a bug.
Either you don't allow in the editor to create an artillery unit with more than 2 figs, or your game must support it.
If the game is designed to have 2 figs maximum for artillery, the number of figs drop down menu in the editor for artillery should only have the options 1 and 2, and not 1, 2, 3 and 4 like any other unit. Or, if you want to keep the option open for designing tabletop scenarios, you don't allow the scenario to be uploaded into the online game if it contains 3/4 fig artillery.

So either it is a bug in the game or a bug in the editor, but a bug it is ...

Secondly: if some series of actions can allow the game to crash, or give a technical error, it is a bug too. The game could give an error message like: "The game failed to load because the scenario designer used more than 2 figures on artilery units. This option is only allowed for scenarios designed for tabletop games. It is not supported by the online game. The scenario will be removed from the list of available scenarios in online play." instead of "Technical error." Not giving a clear error message for something that can occur this easily is also a bug.

That said, I love the editor, the game, and all of it ... I just hope one day DoW will have the budget to complete it all and make it bug free.
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:the missing expansion Thu, 11 October 2012 16:18
Very Happy

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/furiafranceseposter.jpg
      
van Voort
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Re:the missing expansion Thu, 11 October 2012 23:03
I thought the best Belgian units wore grey anyway

(ducks)
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:the missing expansion Fri, 12 October 2012 06:48
van Voort wrote on Thu, 11 October 2012 23:03

I thought the best Belgian units wore grey anyway

(ducks)


This is a French soldier.
The real name of the movie is "La vache et le prisonnier". It's an old comical film about a prisoner of war who tries to escape using a cow.
      
Artimon
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Re:the missing expansion Fri, 12 October 2012 09:52
Dietrich von Kleist écrit le Fri, 12 October 2012 06:48

This is a French soldier.
The real name of the movie is "La vache et le prisonnier". It's an old comical film about a prisoner of war who tries to escape using a cow.



How that ? This best seller of French movies is not well known in the rest of the world !? Shocked What a pity !! Very Happy Very Happy Laughing
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:the missing expansion Fri, 12 October 2012 12:30
Artimon wrote on Fri, 12 October 2012 09:52

Dietrich von Kleist écrit le Fri, 12 October 2012 06:48

This is a French soldier.
The real name of the movie is "La vache et le prisonnier". It's an old comical film about a prisoner of war who tries to escape using a cow.



How that ? This best seller of French movies is not well known in the rest of the world !? Shocked What a pity !! Very Happy Very Happy Laughing


Cheer up! Old belgians like me know it. The rest is quantité negligeable. Laughing
      
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Re:the missing expansion Fri, 12 October 2012 16:00
And some dutch people have a vague memory of seeing it once. But they can remember almost nothing of the movie. Embarassed Wink
      
trentdep
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Re:the missing expansion Fri, 12 October 2012 16:16
How could you NOT remember scenes from that?...

It's like Hogan's Heroes meets Chick-fil-A

( http://www.chick-fil-a.com/Cows/Campaign-History )

      
van Voort
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Re:the missing expansion Sat, 13 October 2012 02:35
Actually I was referring to Degrelle's guys:


The Free Belgian forces unfortunatly don't have much a profile, though I recall the top Typhoon ace was Belgian.

Well, there was Secret Army (of which Allo, Allo started as a parody, but the original is hardly seen today)



Anyway, I see your cow and raise you:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51471036@N05/4735476181/

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 13 October 2012 02:37]

      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:the missing expansion Sat, 13 October 2012 09:26
van Voort wrote on Sat, 13 October 2012 02:35



Anyway, I see your cow and raise you:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51471036@N05/4735476181/




I call your bluff:

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/attack-of-the-50ft-woman.jpg
Cool Cool Cool
      
Artimon
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Re:the missing expansion Sat, 13 October 2012 13:51
50FT is a lucky guy ! Laughing
      
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Re:the missing expansion Sat, 13 October 2012 17:14
Artimon wrote on Sat, 13 October 2012 04:51

50FT is a lucky guy ! Laughing



Laughing Laughing Laughing
      
trentdep
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Re:the missing expansion Sat, 13 October 2012 17:20
Dude driving the black sedan is ( soon to be ? ) a very lucky guy...
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:the missing expansion Sat, 13 October 2012 17:34
Artimon wrote on Sat, 13 October 2012 13:51

50FT is a lucky guy ! Laughing


Unless she doesn't like him playing memoir44 online too often. Wink
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:the missing expansion Sat, 13 October 2012 18:16
A paint test for my m44 armies.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/IMG_0734_zpsbc719eaa.jpg

And this is my German sniper:

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/IMG_0731_zpsa4c09438.jpg
      
stevens
Senior Member
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Messages: 3038
Enregistré(e) en :
February 2007
Re:the missing expansion Sat, 13 October 2012 20:33
I painted my "Battle Cry" miniatures ia similar way with the colored bases. It helps as a visual cue to see easier on the board. Good job sir!

However, I went whole hog with the Equipment Pack and painted them all more realistically. I hope to have some photos online soon.

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 13 October 2012 20:35]

      
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