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50th
Messages: 1280
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October 2006
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Almilcar
Messages: 667
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November 2011
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Tue, 22 January 2013 16:18
 
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| 50th wrote on Tue, 22 January 2013 15:26 |
Why did they change the air power card on page 11 of the Equipment Pack rulebook? I can understand the change of air superiority with time. That's why in my own air rules I gave air superiority to the Axis from '39 to '43, and to the Allies after that. But it doesn't make sense to always have it equal as the new rule on page 11 states. Since they have late war rules on special weapons assets (SWA's), why not late war rules on air power? I think this is how this should be handled instead of just making it equal.
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Interesting point of view 50th. I think you may be right, since the Late War concept is already introduced in the game.
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JFKoski
Messages: 443
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October 2005
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Tue, 22 January 2013 17:38
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I don't have Equipment pack, so this thread came as a surprise to me. I'd missed the box on page 11 of the pdf that says,
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Important Note: Unless written otherwise, air rules
are not in effect. If present in your deck, Air Sortie
cards should be removed and set aside. They will not
be used. In addition, unless stated otherwise, when
playing an Air Power card in any of the scenarios that follow, roll only
1 die against each unit, regardless of which sides you are playing
from, even you are the Allies.
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Emphasis mine.
I don't suppose the Equipment Pack comes with an Air Power card that reads 1d for each side? That could come in handy for games with Winter Weather, too, since both sides roll 1d. (The BT Air Power says 2d for each side, and I've said elsewhere we could use a reverse Air Power, 2d Axis and 1d Allies for those Crete sceanarios with Air Superiority.)
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50th
Messages: 1280
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October 2006
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Tue, 22 January 2013 21:21
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No, the EP did not come with a new air power card, or a new action card explaining the new AP rule.
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Sgt Storm
Messages: 687
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December 2006
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Tue, 22 January 2013 22:56
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My understanding of the rule was it applied to the scenarios in the Equipment Pack...and only there unless stated otherwise.
Anyway, I always play with equal die rolls regardless of what the rules say. Just a preference that we house rule regularly. I find it way too powerful with 2 die otherwise.
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50th
Messages: 1280
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October 2006
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Wed, 23 January 2013 13:24
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| Sgt Storm wrote on Tue, 22 January 2013 15:56 |
My understanding of the rule was it applied to the scenarios in the Equipment Pack...and only there unless stated otherwise.
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Then why did they put it into the rulebook and not the scenario book?
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tank commander
Messages: 1796
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October 2004
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Wed, 23 January 2013 14:05
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| Sgt Storm wrote on Tue, 22 January 2013 16:56 |
My understanding of the rule was it applied to the scenarios in the Equipment Pack...and only there unless stated otherwise.
Anyway, I always play with equal die rolls regardless of what the rules say. Just a preference that we house rule regularly. I find it way too powerful with 2 die otherwise.
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I would question the application of that "rule" as several EE scenarios occur in 1944.
Also, as no scenarios really follow that rules section (as pointed out above-it is in the rule book(which has no scenarios), not the scenario book).
Then there is the bonus EE scenarios. Fortunately, all but one have special rules to cover Air Power.
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Sgt Storm
Messages: 687
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December 2006
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Wed, 23 January 2013 20:00
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| 50th wrote on Wed, 23 January 2013 07:24 |
| Sgt Storm wrote on Tue, 22 January 2013 15:56 |
My understanding of the rule was it applied to the scenarios in the Equipment Pack...and only there unless stated otherwise.
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Then why did they put it into the rulebook and not the scenario book?
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The rule book is the equipment pack rule book, is it not? Hence it applies to the equipment pack scenarios. There is already an established rule for Air Power in standard/overlord scenarios in other expansions, as printed on the card, and to my knowledge that has not been overridden anywhere else (except in individual scenarios and where noted above).
Most folks, like you, look at these rules from a historical perspective. I personally care more about balance of play and have always hated that Air Power was the only card that was unbalanced. I hope this is a move towards balancing the cards regardless of historical accuracy, but that's just my personal wish, and contrary to common sentiment.
[Mis à jour le: Wed, 23 January 2013 20:06]
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50th
Messages: 1280
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October 2006
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Wed, 23 January 2013 23:00
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[quote title=Sgt Storm wrote on Wed, 23 January 2013 13:00]| 50th wrote on Wed, 23 January 2013 07:24 |
| Sgt Storm wrote on Tue, 22 January 2013 15:56 |
My understanding of the rule was it applied to the scenarios in the Equipment Pack...and only there unless stated otherwise.
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The rule book is the equipment pack rule book, is it not? Hence it applies to the equipment pack scenarios
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But to apply that logic would imply that those rules in the terrain pack rulebook only apply to the terrain pack, or that the rules in Winter Wars for SWA's would only apply to WW, ect. SWA rules apply in whatever scenario uses SWA's, blowing up bridges rules apply in whatever scenario uses this rule, but every game uses air power (unless using the air pack).
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Sgt Storm
Messages: 687
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December 2006
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Thu, 24 January 2013 02:55
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[quote title=50th wrote on Wed, 23 January 2013 17:00]| Sgt Storm wrote on Wed, 23 January 2013 13:00 |
| 50th wrote on Wed, 23 January 2013 07:24 |
| Sgt Storm wrote on Tue, 22 January 2013 15:56 |
My understanding of the rule was it applied to the scenarios in the Equipment Pack...and only there unless stated otherwise.
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The rule book is the equipment pack rule book, is it not? Hence it applies to the equipment pack scenarios
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But to apply that logic would imply that those rules in the terrain pack rulebook only apply to the terrain pack, or that the rules in Winter Wars for SWA's would only apply to WW, ect. SWA rules apply in whatever scenario uses SWA's, blowing up bridges rules apply in whatever scenario uses this rule, but every game uses air power (unless using the air pack).
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I was not trying to apply logic to something that is beyond logic's ability to explain. The note in the EP rules (pg 11) that was referenced above is written in a manner that, upon reading, implies it applies only to the scenarios. At least that was my impression when first reading. The fact it is in a box, on the last page, and the way it is worded all points to it being a note about how to play the EP scenarios. Examples of this scenario-leaning phraseology:
"Unless written otherwise, air rules are not in effect." - worded just like a special scenario rule
They will not be used" - sounds like preparatory info for the scenarios to come, particularly use of "will"
"in any of the scenarios that follows" - pretty much seals it for me
Nothing about this note makes me think this is an override of the original rule. Here's the note again for reference:
| Quote: |
Important Note: Unless written otherwise, air rules
are not in effect. If present in your deck, Air Sortie
cards should be removed and set aside. They will not
be used. In addition, unless stated otherwise, when
playing an Air Power card in any of the scenarios that follow, roll only 1 die against each unit, regardless of which sides you are playing from, even you are the Allies.
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But ultimately I guess we wait and see, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it nor would I alter how Air Power is played in any scenarios outside of EP.
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rasmussen81
Messages: 6111
Enregistré(e) en :
July 2007
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Thu, 24 January 2013 03:08
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I think Sgt Storm has a pretty solid case. The line that seals it for me (and is actually quite clear on the matter) is,
"In addition, unless stated otherwise, when playing an Air Power card in any of the scenarios that follow, roll only 1 die against each unit, regardless of which sides you are playing from, even you are the Allies."
It's pretty clear this note is not a general rule to be applied to the overall game. It's talking about the Equipment Pack. If it was talking about all future scenarios, I think it would say so.  But that's just my take on it and not official. 
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Almilcar
Messages: 667
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2011
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Thu, 24 January 2013 07:58
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| rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 24 January 2013 03:08 |
I think Sgt Storm has a pretty solid case. The line that seals it for me (and is actually quite clear on the matter) is,
"In addition, unless stated otherwise, when playing an Air Power card in any of the scenarios that follow, roll only 1 die against each unit, regardless of which sides you are playing from, even you are the Allies."
It's pretty clear this note is not a general rule to be applied to the overall game. It's talking about the Equipment Pack. If it was talking about all future scenarios, I think it would say so. But that's just my take on it and not official.
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Jesse, even though you are right it's a bit confusing having rules for one expansion that don't apply in others in the same way.
Does your statement mean that any scenario from now on regardless its historical date have to apply this rule and not the former?
I think, and you may concur, that the need of a consolidated Air Rule/Air Power rule is not only necessary but also paramount.
As somebody said earlier, why not a general "Late War Air Rule" and its summary card to be used for the whole game?
"Keep it Stupid Simple, if feasible"
[Mis à jour le: Thu, 24 January 2013 13:44]
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rasmussen81
Messages: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Thu, 24 January 2013 08:48
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| Almilcar wrote on Thu, 24 January 2013 10:58 |
| rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 24 January 2013 03:08 |
I think Sgt Storm has a pretty solid case. The line that seals it for me (and is actually quite clear on the matter) is,
"In addition, unless stated otherwise, when playing an Air Power card in any of the scenarios that follow, roll only 1 die against each unit, regardless of which sides you are playing from, even you are the Allies."
It's pretty clear this note is not a general rule to be applied to the overall game. It's talking about the Equipment Pack. If it was talking about all future scenarios, I think it would say so. But that's just my take on it and not official.
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Jesse, even though you are right it's a bit confusing having rules for one expansion that don't apply in others in the same way.
Does your statement mean that any scenario from now on regardless its historical date have to apply this rule and no the former?
I think, and you may concur, that the need of a consolidated Air Rule/Air Power rule is not only necessary but paramount.
As somebody said earlier, why not a general "Late War Air Rule" and its summary card to be used for the whole game?
"Keep it Stupid Simple, if feasible"
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You bring up a good question, and I'm afraid I don't have any answer for you. 
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Almilcar
Messages: 667
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2011
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50th
Messages: 1280
Enregistré(e) en :
October 2006
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Thu, 24 January 2013 16:29
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I hope I didn't upset anyone, I now wonder if this rule applies to the bonus scenario's too, or what. And why is this in the rulebook and not the scenario book if it only applies to the scenarios in the EP? Why not a late war rule? In my own air rules, I have it!
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Kaufschtick
Messages: 102
Enregistré(e) en :
June 2004
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Thu, 24 January 2013 17:15
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| 50th wrote on Thu, 24 January 2013 10:29 |
I hope I didn't upset anyone, I now wonder if this rule applies to the bonus scenario's too, or what. And why is this in the rulebook and not the scenario book if it only applies to the scenarios in the EP? Why not a late war rule? In my own air rules, I have it!
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It's all good! I like 50th's air power card idea. I also like the Blitz rules for early war Axis air dominance.
It seems as if there is a trend away from the air rules, which makes sence when the air pack seems to be out of production.
That is one expansion that I just couldn't bring myself to buy more than one. The planes would have been nice, but the extra copies of the scenario book, possibly the duplicate terrain tiles (I don't think extras of those tiles would have come in especially handy anywhere, but can one ever really have too many terrain tiles?) and the extra card decks seemed to me to be too much wasted material to buy multiples. One copy, definately worth/essential buying!
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Almilcar
Messages: 667
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November 2011
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Thu, 24 January 2013 19:38
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| 50th wrote on Thu, 24 January 2013 16:29 |
I hope I didn't upset anyone, I now wonder if this rule applies to the bonus scenario's too, or what. And why is this in the rulebook and not the scenario book if it only applies to the scenarios in the EP? Why not a late war rule? In my own air rules, I have it!
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I'm sure you didn't. You brought up something that is on the air, awaiting to be resolved. Hopefully, once and for all.
It would be cool to have a single, simple Air Rule. I love your idea of Early War & Late War, to reflect the hegemony of both sides depending on the moment of the war.
Cheers
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JFKoski
Messages: 443
Enregistré(e) en :
October 2005
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Thu, 24 January 2013 20:20
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I'd like cards for 4 situations:
Axis 1, Allies 1, Winter Weather & Equipment Pack
Axis 2, Allies 1, Crete (Air Superiority)
Axis 1, Allies 2, standard
Axis 2, Allies 2, BT
If you want to put them by date, that sounds good too.
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Almilcar
Messages: 667
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November 2011
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Thu, 24 January 2013 20:47
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| JFKoski wrote on Thu, 24 January 2013 20:20 |
I'd like cards for 4 situations:
Axis 1, Allies 1, Winter Weather & Equipment Pack
Axis 2, Allies 1, Crete (Air Superiority)
Axis 1, Allies 2, standard
Axis 2, Allies 2, BT
If you want to put them by date, that sounds good too.
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I like 50th's idea because it's simple: 1 for early and another for late war, thus both sides can have their air superiority reflected.
For other situations, as those you have mentioned, it could be included in the Special Rules, modifying the general air rule.
That is what I would set, but that is something Richard has to do.
Regards
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tank commander
Messages: 1796
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October 2004
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Thu, 24 January 2013 23:41
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I looked over the EE scenarios and also the bonus EE scenarios(now I am making an assumption here that they also fall under that special EE rule)
Of the 16 EE scenarios:
Sc # 04 - the Allies cannot use AIR POWER
Sc # 10 - AIR POWER must be used as BARRAGE
Sc # 13 - AIR POWER must be used as ARTY BOMBARD
Sc # 16 - AIR POWER must be used as BARRAGE
So that leaves 12 scenarios.
One (Sc # 14) has a note to the effect that the allies roll 2d when they play AIR POWER. The rest have no notes so I would say they default to the 1d per side rule.
Of the 8 EE bonus scenarios:
Sc # 03 - AIR POWER must be usec as BARRAGE
Of the 7 left:
Sc # 01 & 02 - Germans roll 2d / Allies roll 1d
Sc #04,05,07 & 08 -- both sides roll 1d. What is strange here is the inclusion of this note when it should not be needed (as the default rule would be 1d per side anyway.)
Sc # 06 - no notes
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Almilcar
Messages: 667
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November 2011
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rasmussen81
Messages: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Fri, 25 January 2013 14:40
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| Almilcar wrote on Fri, 25 January 2013 10:57 |
| tank commander wrote on Thu, 24 January 2013 23:41 |
I looked over the EE scenarios and also the bonus EE scenarios(now I am making an assumption here that they also fall under that special EE rule)
Of the 16 EE scenarios:
Sc # 04 - the Allies cannot use AIR POWER
Sc # 10 - AIR POWER must be used as BARRAGE
Sc # 13 - AIR POWER must be used as ARTY BOMBARD
Sc # 16 - AIR POWER must be used as BARRAGE
So that leaves 12 scenarios.
One (Sc # 14) has a note to the effect that the allies roll 2d when they play AIR POWER. The rest have no notes so I would say they default to the 1d per side rule.
Of the 8 EE bonus scenarios:
Sc # 03 - AIR POWER must be usec as BARRAGE
Of the 7 left:
Sc # 01 & 02 - Germans roll 2d / Allies roll 1d
Sc #04,05,07 & 08 -- both sides roll 1d. What is strange here is the inclusion of this note when it should not be needed (as the default rule would be 1d per side anyway.)
Sc # 06 - no notes
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This reinforces the idea of having a simple & general rule for Early and Late War.
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If you like that idea, you can always play with it, but I wouldn't expect it to become Official. Even if this situation is a bit unclear, it's clearly not the "Late War" option that 50th uses. It's a good idea, but it's just another one of 50th great House Rules.
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50th
Messages: 1280
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October 2006
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Fri, 25 January 2013 16:41
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| rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 25 January 2013 07:40 |
If you like that idea, you can always play with it, but I wouldn't expect it to become Official. Even if this situation is a bit unclear, it's clearly not the "Late War" option that 50th uses. It's a good idea, but it's just another one of 50th great House Rules.
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Thanks, 
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rasmussen81
Messages: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Fri, 25 January 2013 17:19
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| 50th wrote on Fri, 25 January 2013 19:41 |
| rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 25 January 2013 07:40 |
If you like that idea, you can always play with it, but I wouldn't expect it to become Official. Even if this situation is a bit unclear, it's clearly not the "Late War" option that 50th uses. It's a good idea, but it's just another one of 50th great House Rules.
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Thanks,
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No problem. You have some great house rules!
I don't play with House Rules, but if I did your User Page would be the first place I would visit.
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Almilcar
Messages: 667
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November 2011
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Fri, 25 January 2013 19:36
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50th,
do you have any "general" house rule for the Air Power issue?
Cheers
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rasmussen81
Messages: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Fri, 25 January 2013 19:53
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| Almilcar wrote on Fri, 25 January 2013 22:36 |
50th,
do you have any "general" house rule for the Air Power issue?
Cheers
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Go to his User Page; he has a whole document of his own Air Rules that you could use.
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50th
Messages: 1280
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October 2006
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack
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Sat, 26 January 2013 13:40
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| Almilcar wrote on Fri, 25 January 2013 12:36 |
50th,
do you have any "general" house rule for the Air Power issue?
Cheers
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I use my own air rules, but one thing I've been thinking about is this. Since the Allies had air superiority during the later war, wouldn't it be more logical for them to roll 2 dice then? I think maybe this thing is backwards. Since the Axis had air superiority early in the war, maybe they should roll two dice (as per my air rules)in early war scenarios. It's just a thought, of course you can house rule it any way you want to when you play. (That's when it becomes a house rule). I like house rules, I think that as long as all players agree, it can be fun, and can make a scenario a little more historical sometimes (depending on the rule).
By the way, I'm going over my rules and will finish a new version soon!
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