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AAA_dea1
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Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2007

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an etiquette question for tournaments Tue, 05 February 2013 13:23
It sometimes happens and I wonder whether we should have a guideline how to handle that:

Scenario 1:
Obvious misclick / mouse failure, where the outcome of a game without the misclick is known
(Example from yesterday: Last turn in EU, I intend to place the station connecting my routes but play a track from the city with the intended station instead. With correct station I win the game)

Possible decisions:
a) I lose the game (misclicks or whatever are your own fault)
b) I win the game (it's clear that I would have won it on the board)
c) Replay (a compromise is always a good thing)


Scenario 2:
Obvious misclick / mouse failure, where the outcome of a game without the misclick is not absolutely obvious
a) I lose the game (misclicks or whatever are your own fault)
b) Replay


Why should we have a guideline?
In team events you owe it to your team to claim the best possible result along the rules. So without an etiquette guideline it's an awkward decision between sportsmanship and what you owe to your team.
In round robin tournaments/sessions the result of your match can influence other players/teams. (One of the players involved may qualify for KO or win his league group if he wins the game in question). So whatever you do, somebody else may be affected and say you did the wrong thing.
      
ACP Miguel
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Vainqueur Swiss Map Championship AdR 2011

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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Tue, 05 February 2013 15:30
Smile

Hi Dea.

I disagree we have to guideline how to handle this.

I always offer to quit a game, when my opp is booted, played a misclick or something like that. I've play quite a few games and that's how i think we all should behave.
Indeed in team events we are obliged to make our best for our team, but it the issue remains the same. I don't think that a win by a misclick is the best for my/our team.
So scenario 1 i take the loss, scenario 2 i offer the opp who misclicked to decide to replay or continue (as its not obvious the outcome) and wont tolerate a team saying not to do so.
I understand that some may consider this as in influence in the game outcome, but i honestly think we should win by credit.
      
AAA_Lucullupus
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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Tue, 05 February 2013 17:46
Hmmmm, in my view not so easy... Confused

First point:
In Deas case it looks obvious, that it was a misclick (mechanical failure), but it wont be always clearcut. Maybe a player has two possibilities in his two last moves (e.g. going for longest route or decision for longest route or make his second ticket...), plan A looks obvious, but plan B also has some chances. So if a new rule gives him a chance for a replay, he could take Plan B - if it works, he is a genious, if not he demands a replay because of an obvious misclick.
So there might be borderline decisions whether it was an obvious misclick or not - do we further need TDs for that case to judge (maybe depending on the playing strength)? not so easy...

Second point:
There are also mental black outs (or a mixture between mechanical and mental failures): eg selecting the wrong tickets, putting the station on the wrong place or forgetting a rule.
Yesterday I had a case playing EU league against Yaelka. She had to play her second station in her last move and forgot, that her 2 cards for the second station must have the same color, so she couldnt place the station and lost that game. A case of pity but in my opinion no case for replay because mistakes are a part of every game.

In Deas case I vote for replay too (and no doubt I would offer her a replay as Patterson did), but maybe there will be some borderline decisions (mainly in team events) with a lot of troubles afterwards.

      
GSV3
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Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2012

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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Tue, 05 February 2013 20:14
Ask DOW to create the UNDO function (it's not a joke). Therefore, we need a delay between 2 actions (eg 5 sec)
Player A misclicked.
After each move, computer displays the UNDO button on the screen for 5 sec.
Computer is waiting (5 sec) before showing the move to other players(s).
In the meantime, player A can use the UNDO function.
After 5 sec, computer confirms and shows the move and the game continues.
      
ATN Drake
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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Tue, 05 February 2013 21:25
I personally think if its a tournament and you get booted, or misclick you are out of luck.

My mouse on my laptop doesn't work well and I have been doing alot of misclicks - happened in MPWC multiple times which probably knocked me out of moving to the next round (going to take a sixer and end up with a usless 2er somewhere = bad news), and now in League (cost me at least 1 game). I just lived with it.

If its league(unless you are in group A and can win the League), I would leave it up to the players. If someone wants to be nice then that's fine, but if someone doesn't, don't get mad at them, just take the loss and move on.
      
Vballman20 MAD
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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Wed, 06 February 2013 22:01
I think it is an interesting question...

However, I do agree that in most situations you can't guarantee that it was a misclick. There are times that I truly screwed up and could easily blame it on a misclick because I realized exactly what I did right after the move completed. Which would even more so bring into the honesty situation. Which for some players, would most likely increase arguments.

So, I almost have to agree with Drake as most of have made mistakes in the past, and we all have had to deal with them. But, I understand the circumstances and feel that each situation and player will most likely react a little differently depending on the game. So, I think making a standard rule isn't going to happen, but maybe ask if the situation arises, but be satisfied with the outcome, however it may fall.

Hoping that if you are courteous to a player that has a misclick, that someone would return the favor and kindness by doing the same if it happened to you. Very Happy

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 06 February 2013 22:02]

      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Vainqueur AdR All Around Tournament 2011

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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Wed, 06 February 2013 22:16
Well a misclick is like a clod of earth that would deflect a ball in the goal-keeper's net.

Like Lucu mentioned, mental exhaustion could be the cause of it, and some credit go to the opponent for that.

Then, up to both players to find a way-out. If they all agree on a restart, or on giving the win to the misclick, all fine by me.
But no rulings nor etiquette should be necessary.
      
Doc - Pignolo
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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Thu, 07 February 2013 07:37
I have more often do a missclick than the other has done it.

My position is clear on this subject: a missclick is part of the game and I assume it , I never request a replay or propose a replay. When the other propose it, I refuse for me and for him too.

Nevertheless DOW has already proposed a way : when I have now a very important moove to do ( like place a station in Europe ) I use the focus option : when using it, almost impossible to make a missclick.

I have had only one confusion with more than 10 000 games, I don't remember the name of the player but it was a top one. After few messages I have closed the discussionand the game with : " change your mouse ", I think I'm now in his ignore list Razz

Never forget it's just a game.

Doc

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 07 February 2013 07:42]

      
AAA_dea1
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Vainqueur Nation Cup AdR 2007

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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Thu, 07 February 2013 16:41
Thanks for your ponts of view that are as widespread as I thought.

And here's my problem:

Suppose in the next Fusion Cup / League match / ... my opponent misclicks.
If I don't offer restart (or refuse his request) Miguel will tell me I'm an as...
If I do offer restart, the opp wins the restarted game and that kicks Doc out of next round, Doc will tell me I'm an as...
I don't want to be an as... in anybody's mind, so I want to do whatever is commonly considered to be the right thing.
      
onyx puffin MAD
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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Thu, 07 February 2013 20:23
Hmmmm, text above makes it seems like Dea is quite concerned about other people's opinion of her. Rolling Eyes

I just happened to do a misclick in my match yesterday in playing Asia. It happened at the end of the game, when game showed him with 6 trains left, and I am trying to figure, do I have enough to win. I figured I had two turns since he was at 2 or 3 cards with 6 trains. I look at pile of cards and say I could use the green make a 5er pick up 10 points. So I hover over the green while he makes his play.
He puts 2er on the double credit train spot, and boom, he is down to 4. I start the click on the green and as I am doing that, I see the message pop up this is my last turn. I exclaim "What!!!! He only had 3 cards and 6 trains... how ..." Then I remember, Oh yeah. Sysy warned me about the double train move. I forgot. So there would be no way I wanted to take cards if it is my last turn since I could play either play a 4er and get 7 points, or complete a small ticket. But alas, machine read that I had clicked on the green. So is this a misclick? (or just one more time that my fast play burns me)
Ipad is nice realizing this situation and asks what we should do. But really, he had the game won, (even if I do either option.) Now maybe if I go back 5 turns or more and make a different play then ... but what type of misclick is that?

Anyway, misclicks are part of the game, just like in sports with the fumbles, mis-swings, bad bounces as Sysy describes. We all have to live with them. And people in the matches need to work out how they are comfortable in dealing with them, and it may well be a situational thing.

Great topic for discussion. thanks dea. Be affirmed. Smile



[Mis à jour le: Thu, 07 February 2013 20:25]

      
OLE Masimo
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Vainqueur FEUd Cup AdR 2009

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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Thu, 07 February 2013 20:44
Ahhh .... lets change this post to the outing post for the biggest MISCLICKER Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

I haven`t played for a while and now lately I played three games - and guess what ! - I lost one due to miscklicking :

In my last turn all I would have to do is play three blanks from Phoe to Elp - thus ending the game with a 44 track ... (connecting the 5 white and the 6 green) geeeeez - what happened - my trains ended on SFe-Elp ... arrrrg - thus loosing longest and one ticket ... Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad

Obviously a miscklick ... but definitely my fault ... have to practice aiming again I guess.


So this is part of the game - it will happen to all of us once in a while.

If there was a rule of replaying after a misclick - in my opinnion that would quickly end up in "strategic misclicks". If you notice that you`re about to loose - just get a new game by a clever misclick -

I am against replaying misclicked games

after talking to dea right now I want to add the following - i can accept that dea wants a rule - and in my opinion the only one can be:

a mistake is a mistake is a mistake and your own fault - so no whining - count the game as is

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 07 February 2013 20:50]

      
SY/\/ \/\/ill
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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Fri, 08 February 2013 01:58
My two cents...

Firstly, lets assume I am only talking about tournament play here...

I have an expensive logitech laser mouse that occasionally does a random jump, even using a mousemat. If it is really obvious that it is a misclick towards the END of the game or indeed the final move then possibly replaying is the way forwards. I actually think you could have a rule for single-player tournaments and team tournaments if necessary.

If you were in the NC semi's and you lost the final game to get your team into the final because you laid your final 4 trains to calgary instead of seattle with 42 in tickets, then I don't see it as being fair, sporting or in the interest of the tournament for a loss to stand when you clearly would have won. I'm not saying a win should be awarded either... You couldnt say to your opponent that you misclicked and have 42 etc as they may in this situation draw when they wouldnt have (dont believe you have 42 for example). Even in this situation I would personally think a replay is in order... I actually think this would be a good decision for a TD to make on an individual basis - shouldnt happen often!

If I lost in a single player match I would be miffed with myself but at least wouldnt be letting others down.. In my eyes a technical glitch with your mouse is indifferent to a technical glitch and disconnect with internet problems - out of the user's control.

---------------------------------------------------

My thoughts are: In single-player (ie you only play for yourself) games then a mistake is a mistake, unlucky.

In team games, if both players accept a genuine mistake then replay. It's not fair on a whole team who has spent weeks in a tournament to go out (in my opinion). Possibly through courtesy a player could accept the other person should have won - I'd be happy to do this if other players in general would - etiquette like not playing a bot. Ive played Miguel and badly misclicked opening with a random 2er and he was happy to restart (I gave him first draw in the replay out of courtesy, both happy, moved on). I agree with Dea saying there would need to be a guideline, as there is an awkward decision between sportsmanship and your team's result if there is no rule/guideline. Anything that improves general playing etiquette of TtR should surely be encouraged... I think it would be a nice addition to NC/Fusion etc.

Feel free to tell me I'm way off the mark, but for me anything that improves relations between players, politeness, courtesy and etiquette whilst playing is a good thing. I might make fun in the lobby now and then Wink but I'd always play people with respect and courtesy on the board...
      
SY/\/ \/\/ill
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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Fri, 08 February 2013 02:04
Also, very important to note... Ticket to Ride Online is an emulation of a boardgame - its purpose to replicate the boardgame experience...

You cannot misclick in real life...if you dropped a train on the board and it landed on Nash-Atl out of sheer chance there's no way anyone at the table would accept that it was a move etc...

So why not introduce a guideline... it'd make it closer to the real game, which is surely the point...
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Vainqueur AdR All Around Tournament 2011

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Re:an etiquette question for tournaments Fri, 08 February 2013 03:36
GURU Will wrote on Thu, 07 February 2013 18:04


So why not introduce a guideline... it'd make it closer to the real game, which is surely the point...


Well Will could get a point here.

However, since it's an emulation, you also have tons of information on your screen that you'd not get in real. I.e : number of trains left, number of cards in hand, a flat board with tracks easy to read, number of tickets for every player...All summed up on your screen for an effortless game.
So, it's already way different from the original board game.

Concerning onyx's game, I would not qualify that as a misclick at all because :
*) He had to get punished for playing a game without knowing the rules ! If he was aware that a mountain was -1 train off your stack, he'd not have made the mistake.
*) And as usual, he played too fast. So fast, that he picked cards even before the last turn warning popped up.

Problem is : it's hard to qualify a misclick. Is that a technical problem ? Is that a concentration issue ? Is this a way to win a game when the outcome may be close but not in your favor ?
It would be easier to qualify a misclick if we could see both players' hand.

But, if we can relate, let's picture a cycling race.
Last 2km, you're 30 seconds ahead, your tire pops and you finish second.
Technical problem (you can relate to a failing mouse), do the riders have to rerun the 2 km ? Is the victory given to the guy with the popped tire ?
Answer is no.

Concentration problem : you are arriving too fast in the last curve because you are overly confident, or because you are exhausted, and you slip. Alas, chasing group passes you and you lose the race... Do we have to rerun the last 2 km ? Answer is no.


Dea's problem is more complex : semi-technical problem + flaws of the design of the map. Try to lay a station in Amsterdam or Bruxelles with 1 black, it's not that easy.
However, she could have also used the zoom option to make sure it did not happen.
In that case, I'd think that she had a possibility of not making the mistake. So ruling/etiquette would be irrelevant.


Conclusion :
Too many options to set a general rule / a guideline, and to enforce that guideline consistently.
Both players can agree on a different outcome if they wish to do so, no problem on my side.
But that kind of problem should not be solved by a guideline nor a TD.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 08 February 2013 03:53]

      
    
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