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Phread
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 18 January 2011 07:21
sam1812 wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 16:07

Accusing somebody of being dishonorable without knowing his circumstances? For all we know, he could be testing out the bot's next generation of changes.



I stand by my comment above.
Anyone who reaches the #1 rank deserves credit, but then looses it in my eyes if they only play cadet johnny thereafter.

I'm ready and willing to have my butt kicked on the battlefield to prove me wrong - playiing both sides of course.

      
Guerney
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 18 January 2011 08:55
There are a lot of possibility of why you are just playing against the computer.
For me, the main reason is I let my daughter play with my account, and since she is only 9 she only play solo games.
I also know this player and played against him in a real tournament and he is really honorable.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 18 January 2011 10:13
I can also vouch for Praxeo's character. Cool

However, this is exactly the problem with any kind of ranking system. Everyone gets pulled into caring about their score and analyzing other people's score, and questioning motive, tactics, parenting, etc. In my mind, the ranking system is a good thing but comes with a lot of pitfalls! Rolling Eyes
      
clexton27
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 18 January 2011 14:46
Play well, live well, and have fun.

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 18 January 2011 14:48]

      
Vulch
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 18 January 2011 22:56
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 09:13

I can also vouch for Praxeo's character. Cool



I don't know him and have never played against him so can't comment. However I see he has played Johnny 78 times out of the last 80 games.

I would have thought though, that you would get very few points for beating Johnny?

By contrast in one evening I have moved from position 99 to position 8, having played only 9 games (won 8 ). A jump of around 110 points.

Sorry Nightrain, pushed you down to 10th Embarassed

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 18 January 2011 22:57]

      
Phread
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 18 January 2011 23:52
I may have been hasty when I suggested another player was dishonourable.

That said, his actions speak louder than my words so I'll let you be the judges (of us both).

Most days I play real opponents, of any rank/score/ability. I take the risk of gaining/losing points. I've never aimed for a high points rank, what I've got is of minor interest to me. (My son was impressed when I was #5 Laughing )

I play for interested and fun, not the points. Awards are more interesting to me.
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Wed, 19 January 2011 00:21
Quote:

I play for interested and fun, not the points. Awards are more interesting to me.

I can see that ; I think you got them all ! Cool
Congratulations for that.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Wed, 19 January 2011 02:58
Vulch wrote on Wed, 19 January 2011 01:56


I don't know him and have never played against him so can't comment. However I see he has played Johnny 78 times out of the last 80 games.

I would have thought though, that you would get very few points for beating Johnny?


Apparently people haven't realized this...but playing against Johnny does not count toward your world ranking and it does not give you a chance to earn achievements. Those can only be affected by playing other people in Normal mode.

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 19 January 2011 02:58]

      
SAS KAS
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Wed, 19 January 2011 10:16
An idea for revising the skill system setup could include the following (with inspiration from the M44 campaign rules):

When/if a double game (both sides) feature is introduced, the following could be reflected in the formula too:

* draw = both players accumulate an equal amount of kills (medals)

* minor victory = the player who accumulates most kills over the course of both games

* major victory = if a player wins with both sides

* decisive victory = if a player wins with both sides with double (or more) the amount of kills accumulated

Needless to say, a decisive victory should be rewarded generously. Even against lower ranking players.

Of course, this suggestion does not remedy other problems in the formula such as creating poor incentives for skilled players to take on lower ranking players (ref to comments above), but perhaps it could offset some of that?
      
Vulch
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Thu, 20 January 2011 15:31
Phread wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 23:25

Anyone else noticed that the #1 ranked player is only playing "Johnny" at the moment.
He/she hasn't played a human opponent since Jan 6. I guess that's how you stay at the top.


I think someone noticed he hadn't played any humans as he has now disappeared off the list.

Maybe he wasn't meant to be there?

Or maybe he read this thread, played humans and had a disaster?
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Thu, 20 January 2011 15:36
Vulch wrote on Thu, 20 January 2011 18:31

I think someone noticed he hadn't played any humans as he has now disappeared off the list.

Maybe he wasn't meant to be there?

Or maybe he read this thread, played humans and had a disaster?


If someone doesn't play against another person for a set number of days, their account goes inactive and they are removed from the ranking system until they play another battle. In Memoir '44 Online this automatic 'inactive mode' thing turns on if you don't play other people. It was designed so that people couldn't just get to the top and sit on their victories.

I would imagine this is what happened...although your other theories are possible as well.

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 20 January 2011 15:37]

      
Nightrain
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Fri, 21 January 2011 04:43
i just read this whole thing and since all eyes are on Alexis (Praxeo), well another thing to consider why is he keep playing bot, I guess that's probably because he's one of the core members of beta-testing, particularly in developing the AI.

try loading your M44 Online and click on Credits, you can see Praxeo's name and he's responsible for the Ambush card algorithm, so I assume that he also might be helping with the AI/bot's algorithm. Whether or not this is true, I guess every player has the right to pick his own opponent, be it a bot or a human, so I don't see any problem with that Smile

i have only played him twice and we both share a victory, and he's a very experienced and great player. I also spotted him couple of times asking for anyone who wants a game, so accusing him for not wanting to play with human is wrong, we can think of many reasons and another reason I can think of is that he's very busy with his work and probably lend the account to his son, or cousin, or maybe father, and they prefer to play with bot, and that's also fine right ? Smile




      
Phread
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Fri, 21 January 2011 09:25
Bite, chew, munch, chew, chew, swallow.
That's the sounds of me eating humble pie for what I posted earlier regarding the honour of another player.

I've already apologised for what I posted and I do it again. I am sorry for what I posted.
I stand (sit) corrected and will send my fingers to their room for what they typed.

Can I say/write anymore to apologise further?

Humbly, apologetically, yours,
Phread the phoolish
      
Nightrain
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Fri, 21 January 2011 10:28
hi Phread, sorry I didn't intend to direct my post to you, like I said, since all eyes are on him, I just want to open up few possibilities regarding him, so since we're here for the sake of fun, so let's hope that's the spirit we keep on keeping on Smile
      
Phread
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Fri, 21 January 2011 10:34
Thanks for you kind words - unneeded as I had not taken offence.

Praxeo' back at #1, with his promotion to Commandant.
I say, from the bottom of my heart, congratulations to him for the rank and position on the ladder.

My fingers have learnt a valuable lesson.
      
Nygaard
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Sat, 19 February 2011 13:36
Congratulations Titanos... Unseating Praxeo Smile
      
LtRock
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 01 March 2011 20:25
Hi Guys,

I must have missed the ranking table. Can someone post a link so that I can see where I sit Embarassed . Thanks

PS - Do you sometime wish you opted for a different user name "Major" - Lt_Rock somehow doesn't sound right. Very Happy
      
clexton27
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 01 March 2011 21:47
Go to
MY ACCOUNT
and under the heading
MY SCORES AND RANKINGS
pull up Memoir '44

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 01 March 2011 21:48]

      
LtRock
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 01 March 2011 21:56
Thanks Cool
      
Nygaard
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Mon, 07 March 2011 13:14
Having played a good number of games and being all the way up and down the ladder of the Skill system - here's my 0.02 Danish Crowns about the goals of the system and how they are met.

DoW

Non-linear spread: most players are average, and only a few are exceptionally good (or bad) players. So the
skill system should reflect this. The original Chess ELO is good at this.

The current system certainly achieves this - people end up average pretty quickly.

DoW

Converge quickly, evolve slowly: basically, these are two opposite goals!The basic idea is that a player enters the competition with a given "level" of expertise. So you need to find quickly where he should fit in the ladder.
Then over time, his expertise will evolve (usually grow), and therefore he should move (usually up) slowly.

Not sure this is achieved at all. You quickly feel that it's an uphill battle to climb the ladder. Mostly since you will loose more points than you win against most opponents as soon as you go up even a little from 1500 points.


DoW

Inertia to account for the luck factor: if, after long time and efforts, a player reaches a high level, he will
probably get mad to fall down abruptly because of bad rolls in a game. Such punishment should be limited, but at the same time, good players should not be protected in some king of ivory tower. Chess ELO is bad at this,
which is why the Chess people invented groups (Master, Grand Master, etc.).

The current system completely fails at this. You get punished SEVERELY for loosing to unlucky dice.

DoW

Don't reward best players for killing newcomers: it should be considered normal for a good player to beat a
bad player, so the reward should be minimized. Chess ELO is good at this.

This is the main problem of the current system. It discourages people from taking on new players if they are at 1600+ points. Personally I think you should get rewarded when playing someone with less than 20 games NO MATTER WHAT YOUR SKILL LEVEL IS. The best way to get experienced players to take up the job of teaching the game to new players is by rewarding them. Otherwise they will quickly tend to play only with other experienced players A) because you don't have to spend time waiting for the other player to read the cards and B)Because you get punished for loosing to them.

DoW

Allow entry at any time: this is probably the constraint that causes the most headaches. If all players start at the same time and all play, then it's easy. It's like any tournament or sport competition (take the European
Football league for example). Here, we have players that join the fray. Chess ELO is OK at this if you wait for a while for the score to "converge".

I might fail to see the problem here... But it might be that the current system has simply solved the problem, I don't know.

DoW

Newcomers-compatible: if the number of cumulated Skill points keeps growing with the number of games played, newcomers will never be able to catch-up. Chess ELO is good at addressing this issue.

The current system works for this. I still think it would be a good idea to reward people who are "returning customers" - maybe not with skill - but perhaps in some other way.

DoW

On top of this, Memoir '44 brings some unique constraints:


DoW

Scenarios are unbalanced: the system should take into account the risk vs. reward factor.

I don't feel the system does this, but I can't see through the math to understand why this is. Certainly if you want to climb the ladder you do not want to play Arnhem as the Axis or Omaha as the allies against ANYONE with lower skill than you.

DoW

Need for symmetry: exact same scores during a match and rematch should put the two players where they were before they played the two games.

This is certainly not the case. I feel that a true "two-match" option where no skill is exchanged until both matches are done and calculated might simplify this.

DoW

Reward the winner: the winner should always make points, even if he is on the favored side. We feel that doing it another way would go against the Memoir '44 spirit.

I agree. And I also think that the looser should be able to make points as well. Say you are at 1400 Skill and you overperform in Arnhem - that should be worth a few skill points.

DoW

Reward over-performance: if the losing player performs better than the average, he should be rewarded too. This is also part of the Memoir '44 spirit: the win margin should make a difference. This is also important to
avoid the "rage quit" behavior that plagues most online games nowadays, i.e. players who quit games before the end when they start to lose.

This is not achieved at all with the current system. Too bad, really, I don't mind loosing if I feel I did well, but currently you are ALWAYS punished for loosing.

DoW

There is always a winner: it sounds funny put like this, but this is quite different from Chess. With Chess
ELO, players of same expertise are expected to end up with a draw, and therefore no points won or lost. In Memoir '44, there will always be a winner.

Not if you have 2 games matches. This is another reason why this would be interesting.


One final thought - I think I've mentioned this before: You could make it optional if you want to "risk" your Skill in a game. That way you wouldn't even have to change the system that much - people with 1800 points would simply disable the Skill calculation when playing someone with 1300 and nobody would be angry.

Magnus
      
Phread
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Mon, 07 March 2011 20:14
One useful addition to the skill system would be to include a "dice factor" in the calculation.

If a player rolls dice considerably below average and wins they should get bonus points.
If a player rolls dice considerably below average and is defeated they should get a discount on points lost.

This would mean a player would be compensated for below average die rolling in a battle.

Perhaps similar calculations should be applied for above average die rolling - don't gain as many points for a victory, loose more for a defeat with above average die rolling (thereby adjusting for lower player skill).

      
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 08 March 2011 00:44
The math of the system does work... but in my opinion, it works wrong.

If the skill points difference was taken out of the equation then you would only win or lose points for the Scenario percentage and the Medal spread.

Any unlucky game can drop you 30-40 points. When you only get 5 to 7 points per win it makes you not want to play lower skill players.

I have played many games and won 6-4 swap sides and lose 4 to 6, so the medal count was even, but I still lost more points than I won. The only way to correct that is to drop the skill rating from the equation.

The way the system is now, it really makes you not want to play the underdog vs anyone with lower skill rank.



      
AIwan
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 08 March 2011 09:14
“Dice factor” is a very tricky thing in my opinion.

We have two sources of “dice luck”: first is the distribution of symbols (i.e. how many tanks you rolled vs. stars, flags, grenades and infantry) and second the “match” of symbols to the targets.

So for example you can have normal distribution (1/6 tanks, 1/6 stars etc) but very low hit ratio because you toss tanks on infantry etc

Thirdly, the hit ratio also reflects your tactics (you can attack units that can not retreat – then also flags count as a hit); so then higher hit ratio is not an effect of luck;

Finally, you can shoot four dices at one infantry figure and no matter how many hits you have your hit ratio is max. 25%; so lower hit ratio might be a result of overkills.

So a “dice factor” can not be based on hit ratio alone – at least it would have to include the “match” factor; I think it will be really difficult to adjust it on a fair basis. Then we have also random cards – so maybe a card factor in a games you do not have any units on the left and 5/5 cards for a left flank Razz

Though, I agree with other posts that a ranking system should be improved. Very Happy
My vote: A rematch option should give points based only on two-sided match not separately after each scenario. This will also solve the situation when experienced players avoid beginners – a two-sided rematch is much more fair and based on experience/skill not luck to the extent the game mechanics allows.
      
sam1812
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 08 March 2011 14:46
I agree that the rating formula needs to be changed.

A big win should be worth a lot of points. A razor-close win should be worth relatively little. And the function should be non-linear. If that were the case, then everybody would have far fewer complaints about the rating system. (I did some analysis on this toward the beginning of this thread.)

The luck of the dice, in my opinion, should not be factored directly into the formula -- just as the luck of the cards shouldn't be -- just as the luck of your opponent's cards shouldn't be. You are responsible for playing in a way that will maximize your chances of winning, even if your luck is less than you desire. If you take risks and the dice or cards turn against you, the rating system shouldn't reward that.

What about times when your cards or dice are hopeless? Everybody has an unwinnable game occasionally. That just happens. But a strong player may be able to manufacture an extra medal or two, reducing the sting in the ratings.

Should all games be rated or just some games? My feelings about that have been evolving, as I see how the ratings have, in fact, affected my choices of scenarios, etc., during the past couple of months. I don't have a clear answer, but if the formula were fixed, I think things would immediately become a lot fairer.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 08 March 2011 17:41
I was doing pretty well for a while there. I was slowly gaining points. But I've never cared very much about the Ranking System so I don't pay attention to the rank of the people I play...and I don't usually care which battle I play or which side I play from.

But I can't help notice the increase or decrease in my points after each battle, simply because it's right there! Razz

In the last few days I watched myself lose over 50 points in two battles. Not a great experience. Rolling Eyes

I would play Memoir '44 Online even if it didn't have any ranking system, but I recognize that many people like the ability to compare themselves with other players. I think we need a new system for comparing skill though...maybe just a few tweaks to the current system or something totally new.

I have every faith that the end result will be a great solution! Very Happy
      
gheintze
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 08 March 2011 18:02
I was up to #17 for a little bit, as i was winning a lot of games.

Now I've hit a bad streak and plummeted to 195 or so. Dice, cards, and the randomness of the Mediterranean desert scenarios have hit me hard in the last day or so.

Am I really supposed to believe that I'm that much worse of a player all of a sudden? I play whoever is available (i like to play both sides), and I'll take the underdog side against a cadet or 2nd lt. But I'd by lying if I said that I'd didn't care about my ranking falling.

So far, I've been able to ignore it for the most part and keep playing anyone and everyone, but it is still disappointing to see it fall like that.

I wish the system could be fixed a little...

Geoff

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 08 March 2011 18:04]

      
General Strike
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  Re:Discussion about the Skill system Mon, 08 April 2013 22:51
Hey guys, a years long discussion, but me as a newcomer noticed that nothing has changed... The whole game is very professional and smooth, but soon the ranking system made me feel uneasy about the whole game. Honestly I think it should be addressed properly and then fixed.

Sgt Storm gives to me the right way for the direction we should go with the skill system, really:
Sgt Storm wrote on Tue, 14 December 2010 00:10



Re-implement the concept of a game in the online system as a pair of games on the scenario with each side switching. Only apply skill level to those games played where the sides swap and play the scenario twice, with an option to play one side without skill level being affected.




As simply as that. Once this is decided, it should be relatively easy to adjust the exact perimeters satisfactorily (is that correct English?) for the ELO system. Basically the winner of the Match (the two games) gets some points. The more he or she wins on especially the 'hard to win' side the more points and of course taking the skills of the two players into account. Cannot be too difficult imho.

Also the solo ranking is crazy: right now a guy with a SS uniform who plays like ten times a week Pegasus Bridge as Allies to gain every fixed win some points to stay number 1 Laughing
Also the solo games could be made into pairs with probably a maximum of wins on any scenario (maybe three or five). Maybe a whole new concept on solo games, but based on paired games most likely. Is anybody interested in this? I am.

The ranking can and should enhance the game, this is in the interest of both players and DOW, I think.

Already M44 is one of my favorite war games ever (I play them for over 40 years), but this, again, should and can be fixed.
      
sam1812
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 09 April 2013 01:47
Pleased to meet you, GeneralStrike --

Memoir Online began with first a limited beta test, and then several more months of "open" beta testing, where many kinks were identified. DoW's priority was rightly to fix the bugs and make the game properly playable. Fixing the rating system was rightly given a lower priority for them. (I say this as one of the users who both submitted dozens of bug reports and analyzed the disproportionalities of the rating system. And, also, as one of the most enthusiastic players.)

Presumably because DoW has limited programming staff and multiple online games to develop and support, there have been no new updates to the game in over a year (unless there have been some unannounced, auto-downloaded bug fixes that we're not aware of).

Don't worry too much about the ratings. They don't count for anything -- not even promotions, as far as we can tell. The real object of the game is to have fun.

Sam
      
clorofila
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 09 April 2013 03:09
sam1812 wrote on Tue, 09 April 2013 00:47

[...] The real object of the game is to have fun. Sam


And this game provides a lot of it, I might add!
Smile
      
blastmaster
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 09 April 2013 04:35
New to this game, I hope this is correct.

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 09 April 2013 04:37]

      
blastmaster
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 09 April 2013 04:37
sam1812 wrote on Mon, 08 April 2013


Don't worry too much about the ratings.]They don't count for anything...


I sure hope this is true.

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 09 April 2013 04:38]

      
clexton27
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Tue, 09 April 2013 04:46
blastmaster wrote on Mon, 08 April 2013 22:37

sam1812 wrote on Mon, 08 April 2013


Don't worry too much about the ratings.]They don't count for anything...


I sure hope this is true.



EDIT 9APR13

Don't worry new fellow, it is as Sam said. It doesn't mean anything. And this is coming from the fellow currently ranked #1 in the Online game. Just made top dog about 10 minutes ago. Rolling Eyes

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 09 April 2013 22:35]

      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Wed, 10 April 2013 11:56
stevens wrote on Tue, 09 April 2013 04:46

blastmaster wrote on Mon, 08 April 2013 22:37

sam1812 wrote on Mon, 08 April 2013


Don't worry too much about the ratings.]They don't count for anything...


I sure hope this is true.



EDIT 9APR13

Don't worry new fellow, it is as Sam said. It doesn't mean anything. And this is coming from the fellow currently ranked #1 in the Online game. Just made top dog about 10 minutes ago. Rolling Eyes



Congratulations!

But remember: "Respice post te! Hominem te esse memento! Memento mori!"
http://bobkaylor.com/wp-content/uploads/triumph.jpg
      
clexton27
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Wed, 10 April 2013 17:26
Dietrich
Merci mon ami!
All fame is fleeting ... for I am but a man and death is inevitable. Very true.

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 10 April 2013 22:47]

      
Jeronimon
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Re:Discussion about the Skill system Fri, 12 April 2013 16:10
Even if fame is fleeting, and the ranking is not important, and . . . stuff.

I still congratulate you on your accomplishment sir. For I know it is still no easy task to get to that lofty space you have now occupied.

"They can't take that away from you!" (I am singing this to you with a flourish off my hat and cane. Smile )
      
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