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Qorlas
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 27 July 2013 12:40
No, let's keep the core of the traditional tournament intact.. only 2p for me

let's consider also scheduling trouble.
      
DrakeStorm
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Mon, 05 August 2013 21:44
I am not sure exactly how registration for NC works - and when teams are locked in, but there is a pretty big difference depending on the number of teams.

If 18 teams then there will be 3 groups of 6 which means 5 RR rounds.

If 16 teams, I assume there will be 2 groups of 8 which means 7 RR rounds.

Those extra 2 rounds could require a team needing an extra member on the team.

So can Teams modify their roster once the number of teams is determined? If not, I think a rule needs to be added so that they can.
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Mon, 05 August 2013 22:02
Well, we've been fairly flexible last year.

National teams had 10 extra days to make modifications while TNT were registering. This is no issue by me provided captains let people know they may need an extra player.
      
Truckerteller
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Fri, 30 August 2013 11:58
If I read all the rules correct, the Captains will be sending me their perceived team rankings / strength and (after disqualifying those who have Holland outside the top 3) I will put those in a fancy spreadsheet and calculate the averages.

Will we do the group formation 1-2-3-1-2-3 or 1-2-3-3-2-1 ?

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 30 August 2013 11:59]

      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 31 August 2013 01:36
Dunno,

Choice could be left to the TD.

Advantagde of
1-2-3
6-5-4 etc...
is mainly when we have a rounded number of teams (6,12,18 or 24). Model keeps its balance in those cases.
With 22-23 teams, bottom 2/4 teams are going in the same/2 same groups, and balance is kind of lost.

More than the kind of groupping, Truck should be allowed to make the adjustments he feels necessary, by annoucing them before teams send their perceived rankings.

I.E. : Whatever the perceived rankings:
*) At least one German team and one French team in every group.
*) The 3 American teams can not be in the same group.

If it's too much of a problem concerning trust, then whatever.

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 31 August 2013 02:38]

      
AAA_dea1
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 31 August 2013 12:56
My suggestion:

Start with
1-2-3
6-5-4

it's the top teams that raise most discussions, not the ones in the middle

end with
23-22-bye
or
22-bye-bye

the "snake" only makes sense as long as you can fill all slots, otherwise - as Sysy mentioned - you lose the balance at the end.


In the middle follow the "snake" in general, but make adjustments to avoid "nation clustering" (follow Sysy's suggestions). If you make such an adjustment, make up for it in the next "row of the snake" - target: The sum of the ranking points in slots of complete rows shall be equal for all groups in the end.
      
Truckerteller
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 31 August 2013 14:09
OK, this is gonna be tricky, that's for sure.

I'm more of a 1-2-3-1-2-3 fan. This way teams 21 and 22 don't end up in the same group. Not to offend anyone, but I feel rating differences tend to be most pronounced at the bottom.

My suggestion would be:
1-2-3
4-5-6
7-8-9
and continue unless there's already 2 of the same country in a group in which case that team will be placed in the next group and the follwing team in the rankings will move up a group.

How's that ?

I like dea's idea as well, but that would mean I have some discretion in alocating teams in the bottom 10 or so.
      
AAA_dea1
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 31 August 2013 16:02
SOS Truckerteller schrieb am Sat, 31 August 2013 14:09


I'm more of a 1-2-3-1-2-3 fan. This way teams 21 and 22 don't end up in the same group.

That results in Group A clearly being the strongest.
1-2-3
6-5-4
7-8-9
12-11-10
13-14-15
18-17-16
19-20-21
22-bye-bye (or 23-22-bye with 23 teams)
also avoids 21 and 22 in the same group, but keeps the balance for the rest.


SOS Truckerteller schrieb am Sat, 31 August 2013 14:09

... but that would mean I have some discretion in alocating teams in the bottom 10 or so.

Not really if you follow the system strictly

Let's say you have
1-2-3
6-5-4
7- ... now team 8 violates the "national clustering criteria" if it goes to group B, so you change 8 and 9 to get
7-9-8
in the next row you have to make up for it, so this has to be
12-10-11

OK, if you have to swap 2 teams in the last row, you can either
a) go back and do the reverse swap in the row above
b) live with it, in case it gets too tricky (because this reverse swap is not possible and you'd end up going through several recursions) ... I guess we can ...
      
Truckerteller
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 31 August 2013 17:10
Well, the drawback of 1-6-7-12-13 in a group is that the nr 1 ranked team has the easiest schedule, whereas group B is more balanced. In 2009, 2010 and 2012 UEG was in a group with nrs 6 and 7 seed.

Not saying that 1-2-3-1-2-3 is better, but it's not obvious to me that 'equally strong' groups are better for a balanced competition.
      
Qorlas
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 31 August 2013 17:35
My idea:


1-2-3
6-5-4
7-8-9
12-11-10

and so on...

We need to avoid clustering of teams from the same country in one group.

So for Germany and France I would give a maximum of 2 teams per group and for countries with 3 teams or less a maximum of 1 team per group.

If we reach the number of 24 teams everything change...
We can go 4 groups of 6 or 3 groups of 8.
      
GSV3
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 31 August 2013 21:29
Be creative Truck
1-2-3
4-6-5
8-7-9
10-11-12
13-15-14
18-17-16
19-21-20
22-bye-23
      
DrakeStorm
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 31 August 2013 21:48
Could have avoided all this nonsense if we just drafted the groups.

If you start moving teams around due to nationality, then the whole ranking of teams and slotting them starts to lose its meaning.

Still time to implement a draft I think. Do the perceived rankings and the top 3/4 teams head up each group and they draft a team, then the team that was just drafted drafts the next team for the group, etc. Each group might not be "balanced", but each team in a group will at least be there for a reason and not random. Its the random part that sucks.
      
Qorlas
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 31 August 2013 22:01
I like the idea of the draft.

We should just keep some rule to avoid all teams from same country in same group.
      
Truckerteller
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 07 September 2013 11:22
"Each group might not be "balanced", but each team in a group will at least be there for a reason and not random. Its the random part that sucks. "

So, being SOS and not in the top 3, how does a draft not turn out be be random for us. We'll be in Group A, B or C, depending on who does what in the draft, what has happened prior to we got drafted, the interpretations of team captains, some last minute mind-changing, some trying to be funny or smart. There might be a reason we'll end up in Group B, but it will be an extremely random chain of reasons.

I'll go with 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3, no more than 2 of one nation per group.



      
onyx puffin
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 07 September 2013 15:00
So two things about this ranking/draft possibilities.

First, as one who received the Fusion Cup rankings, there will be surprises in the team lists you get, and how captains go about getting their lists. And some people will rank teams lower because they don't like some members of another team or think some team's egos need put into check so they rank them lower. SO please do not think this ranking system is foolproof.

Two, are we making sure the schedule has same countries playing early in the round robin?

And finally on a side note, what about rivalries? One thing I liked about Drake idea of draft is that a team may want to make sure their 'rivalry' team gets in their grouping. Do we allow for this? Or might there be too many teams wanting to beat the TD's team, or a perceived traitor who switched teams, or someone who did not try to get people on their team, or the one who is always picked on their nightmare team. Rolling Eyes Ah the rivalry reasons go on.
      
Truckerteller
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 07 September 2013 16:02
GANG (seeded 2nd) won Fusion, ahead of BTB (seeded 3rd), to whom we lost in the group phase. I don't think any of us found it strange that we were behind nr. 1 seed GASP in the perceived ranks, since they had Angel, Anu_, Schwen, womble and Rui. PPB won group A, so maybe they were a bit low, but I don't think anybody wanted to rank PPB especially low to put Knockando's ego back into place.


I'm not aware of any "rivalries". Out of the top 20 players in Drake's tournament ELO list I can't see anyone having a serious desire to beat someone specifically, especially not a group of players. And if there are, there's either the chance that a captain wants to avoid another team or that he/she deliberately adds them to the group, making that group extra strong or weak, thereby annoying other teams in the group. Sure, everybody wants to beat UEG or TuS, but that speaks for itself.

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 07 September 2013 17:01]

      
Knockando
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 07 September 2013 16:15
Je ne comprends vraiment pas pourquoi vous vous prenez tant la tête avec ces histoires de ranking.
Sur un vote de 23 équipes chaque vote individuel est sans importance calculable. Il ne peut y avoir aucune manoeuvre.

Par contre ensuite la seule chose importante sera de changer éventuellemnt l'ordre des tours afin que les équipes d'un même pays s'affrontent lors des premièrs tours.
      
Truckerteller
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 07 September 2013 16:31
Sorry, Sylvain, I can't follow this well enough, and google translate is having even more problems.

EDIT: OK, reading 3 times helps. I agree, with 23 votes, it's irrelevant to begin with.

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 07 September 2013 16:39]

      
Knockando
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 07 September 2013 16:46
SOS Truckerteller écrit le Sat, 07 September 2013 16:31

Sorry, Sylvain, I can't follow this well enough, and google translate is having even more problems.



My translater wasn't good enough too,perhaps Sysyphus or Elric could be better translater ? Smile
      
Truckerteller
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 07 September 2013 16:48
I understand you prefer teams of 1 country to be in the same group ?
      
Knockando
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 07 September 2013 16:51
SOS Truckerteller écrit le Sat, 07 September 2013 16:48

I understand you prefer teams of 1 country to be in the same group ?


No.

I agree with onyx : if there are 2 teams from same country in a group, it's better they play each other at beginning of NC
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sat, 07 September 2013 18:19
Knockando_ wrote on Sat, 07 September 2013 08:51


I agree with onyx : if there are 2 teams from same country in a group, it's better they play each other at beginning of NC


Already planned in the rules.


12.5 Clash pairings in round robin stage
Pairings by number of teams in a group, team number according to team rank..
Adjustments can be made as teams of the same nation must play during the earlier rounds of the tournament.


Quote:


First, as one who received the Fusion Cup rankings, there will be surprises in the team lists you get, and how captains go about getting their lists. And some people will rank teams lower because they don't like some members of another team or think some team's egos need put into check so they rank them lower. SO please do not think this ranking system is foolproof.


I think it's because perceived rankings during Fusion were satisfying that we decided to go with it for NC !
I agree with what Truck said.
Why people are so worried of misbehavior or manipulation ?

Like Knock mentioned, with so many votes, there should not be many problems. Moreover, we added in the rules...

b)The TD will discount the top 2 and bottom 2 rankings for each team and will calculate the average perceived ranking. Team with the lowest average is ranked #1 and so on. If a captain does not submit this ranking list in time, TD will use whatever lists he/she has.


About a draft :
As exciting or not exciting it can be, it is too late to implement a draft... Time to explain, to decide on draft format, it will only create confusion for captains. We said we would use Fusion for any new experiment, let's stick to this reasonable thinking.

Send perceived rankings
To limit the manipulation paranoia (btw everybody sent their perceived ranking to a playing TD for Fusion and everybody felt ok about it), captains can send their rankings to Truck, copy to Hecki (who was willing to help) if they feel better about it.

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 07 September 2013 18:20]

      
onyx puffin
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Re:NC 2013 : organization Sun, 08 September 2013 04:24
Sorry about any confusion on above comments, especially the rivalries comment. That was meant to be a joke. Probably only real rivalries may be within the same country. Otherwise the rivalries may be like in other sports, usually rivalries occur with top teams who would be separated during the Round Robin phases anyway.

Also, ratings manipulation was not what I meant. If you remember for Fusion Cup, even looking at samples where dropping the highest and lowest rankings did not significantly change the grouping.

My only point (besides the humor) was people should quit worrying so much about ranking and how the divisions get set up. Perhaps side humor point was to have people start thinking of it more like the fun one could have as rivals in whatever group you are in.

Personally I think all previous winner teams should be in one division. Laughing Let them knock each other off Twisted Evil and really step up the rivalries. Shocked

[Mis à jour le: Sun, 08 September 2013 04:30]

      
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