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dea1
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 09:21
Chris' suggestion was discussed intensely, and we found out that it would not please more people but less.

Reasoning:

For players in A it's irrelevant - obvious

For players in the lower groups (D now, C in Chris' suggestion) it is also irrelevant:
The letter of the group is not the issue (call it "Mary" instead of C or D). The issue - if there is one - is, that you do not get a chance to play against the top 48 players. For those, who would have liked that, it is sad (but maybe others are happy that they don't have to play you Wink ).
There would always be 48 players "gone", whether you put them into 2 groups B or in a B + a C.

So it remained to be decided what is better for the 32 players who will be in B/C. 2 parallel groups with a wide spread of level? Or a "better B"?
Considering that half the players who would have been in group A in the old system and many TELO tops will have to be in B (due to the many entries), we wanted to give them a group as close to the same quality, that the old "league A" offered, as possible.
Looking at the preview, I think this succeeded.
So the players in B will probably be more pleased with this solution.
For the players in C the same applies as for D above. Some may be sad that they are not going to play some famous opponent, others may be happy that their opposition is not so strong, so they can win more matches, thereby gathering more TELO, thereby increasing their chances to make it to A next year (after this season, the best placed players from C and D will have higher TELO then the last placed in A or B).
      
THEBEEF
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 11:37
Bonjour,

Wanderings away from the elites, a Vox populi reaction.

Perhaps it would be much easier for me to wait for the next season as the hype of this new league is past and find the 50 participants who on average have played the last nine seasons in which I participated. And so I find myself at worst directly in Div C. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Now if I do not write this little pamphlet, I am no longer myself. Twisted Evil
"THE Beef Remains the same" said Gimmy Page. Shocked

More seriously. Congratulations and thank you to all those who contribute to give new impetus to all these competitions and thus reminded that a wise farmer. Regardless of their willingness to do things better, there will always be dissatisfied.

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 07 January 2014 11:43]

      
onyx puffin
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 15:40
dea1 wrote on Tue, 07 January 2014 03:21


For players in the lower groups (D now, C in Chris' suggestion) it is also irrelevant:
The letter of the group is not the issue (call it "Mary" instead of C or D).
There would always be 48 players "gone", whether you put them into 2 groups B or in a B + a C.

For the players in C the same applies as for D above.


OK I am confused here. Is there now going to be a group D? 4 levels?

If so you may have more people dropping out. The one benefit to Chris' notation about having B1 & B2 is the opportunity next year to move up to group A. (it seems obvious many want to move up a group even for the next year)

Same can be said for people in group C moving to group B. If you add in group D, you added another layer which is not good!!!
Sometimes you may need to consider the opinion of those of us apparent lower level players. You may be missing the stigma of being assigned and playing in group D. "OOOOOh the lowest level." With Chris' notation, lot of people in group C, and not that much stigma.

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 07 January 2014 15:42]

      
Truckerteller
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 15:54
Per Onyx' suggestion Group A will be renamed to group Baby Seal, group B will be called Fluffy Bunny, group C will be called Dapper Chipmunck, Group D1 will be Cute Kitten and group D2 will become the Naughty Puppies. All players will be assigned randomly, there will be no more promotions and relegations and blocking will be forbidden throughout the tournament.
      
dea1
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 16:01
Yes, there will be 4 levels.

No, this does not decrease chances to move up to A or B for the next year.
The way to move up is mainly TELO and you can move from D directly to A if your TELO is high enough (or get there as a new entry).

Actually the chance to get a big TELO boost by playing League this year is higher if you are in a "lower" group.
If you finish last in B that will be a big drop in TELO, and you'll probably find yourself in D in 2015 (unless you play a perfect NC and a great SPWC to make up for the loss from League).
If you win C or D, chances are very good that you are in A or B in 2015 (unless you lose all your matches in NC).

You may be missing the stigma of being assigned and playing in group D. "OOOOOh the lowest level"
Why would that be any better if C were "ooooooh the lowest level"?

Sometimes you may need to consider the opinion of those of us apparent lower level players.
I can only ask you to believe that we do.
I honestly believe that the new system is good for players with lower TELO (there are no "apparent lower level players" any more, no need for judgement since we have TELO).
You get to play more matches than in old League --> more chances to increase your TELO faster or get to the required number of 40 matches for "full TELO" faster.
You can go up to group A or B in 2015 directly if your TELO is then good enough --> no need to worry about number of levels in a ladder.
You can play against more opponents with a wider skill level --> more interesting (not always the same opps as last year)
You don't play against the "very big guys" --> more chances to increase your TELO faster by winning most of your matches


Maybe that wasn't obvious from reading the rules - in that case I hope it's clearer now.

Or maybe I'm just wrong and don't get what people want? In that case sorry, we really tried hard to make it good for everyone.
      
dea1
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 16:04
@Trucker: Not even the Naughty Puppies may block?
Too bad, I was hoping to be there Laughing
      
Lucullupus
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 16:43
Drake:
I think maybe the problem is people don't understand there was not going to be a League 14.
Maybe because nobody said this clear till now.

Qorlas was going to end league. Participation was low and TDing it was a bit of a headache.
TDing must have been the hell in the last time. Qorlas made a great job and considered very thoroughly about every different case!

I created TELO.
Thx for your hard work too, I am sure, it took a long time.

Some people end up in a lower division than if old league continued, yet old league was never going to continue so really nothing to complain about.
Not sure that there were no chance for continuation with some improvement.
I assume most people signed up not knowing 100% what division they were going to be in.
Correct! But the point for many intermediate or weaker players (I spoke with many of them!) is not the name of the division, they just dont want to play against the same opponents every season, because that is boring.
The only person who has any right to complain is Qorlas.
Qorlas is a very nice guy, he never will complain. But I am not sure, whether he is happy with the new rules and how they came off or not.
I am sure the rules will change again before EURO-League starts.
Yes, because many players have a lot of countable US matches, but few EURO matches in tournaments, so maybe the TELO list is not significant enough for the EURO league.

SYSYPHUS:
Maybe yes, that thread had to stay open since an explanation is needed. Yes, there was bad communication overall from us (including me) to advertise the New league. Yes, timing was really bad, not to say crap. Yes, that sucks to update rules right before the deadline.
Thanks a lot for these words. If you would have posted that before, there would have been no need for agitation and excitement. And I excuse myself for the word totalitarianism. I really ment no harm.
We 6 have different visions, like the posts in the forum suggest, but we tried to reach the best compromise and offer what's best for everybody.
Like most of players who signed up, we 6 had a different understanding of the rules in mind.

Thats normal. I hope you got the best compromise. If not, there is no problem to make an update for next season. Cool But to offer a solution, which is the best for everybody, is an illusion.
In the first draft of rules, the voice of the former League players was, for good reasons, promoted -thinking that Old League players would be the majority among the sign-ups for the New League-. With the excellent turnout, the Old League players have happened to be a minority now.
Yes, but the main reason is, that you activated the top players intensely this time. If that would have been made formerly, the old league would have been a better success as well.

ELRIC:
And please, if you want to thank some people that just try to organize things, that are just volunteers, that of course won't do things always perfectly, please, don't use such harsh words like "totalitarianism", "elitist", "insanity" or "terrific enslavery ...".
I know that we badly need such volunteers und thanks again for your efforts! For the word totalitarianism (a terrible word, I even cannot pronounce it without braking my tongue) I apologized, but the rest was written in a fairy tale and a fairy tale is a fairy tale, no reality! Usually you are learning that in the kindergarten, no? By the way, elitist is a normal word, not a harsh one and the new league is a kind of elitist league. The pop players just play among themselves. So what is wrong with that word?

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 07 January 2014 16:48]

      
TuS yaelka
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 17:46
dea1 schrieb am Tue, 07 January 2014 16:01

...

No, this does not decrease chances to move up to A or B for the next year.
The way to move up is mainly TELO and you can move from D directly to A if your TELO is high enough (or get there as a new entry). ...


... thx dea for telling this here again. I really missed this part in the new rules Embarassed .... maybe others did too?


... so even less reason to change the way of seeding THAT much. I personally didn't see any complaint of a top player about the new rules.

Were they all hidden (just by PMs)? .... Did noone dare to say it open? Was ommie sent to write that post right after Qorlas' preview post? (I was somehow feeling she was) ....

Wouldn't it be better to have some more old-league-players in A to show them where they belong to!? Wink

SOS Ishamael schrieb am Mon, 06 January 2014 18:09

...

I think the old League players should be taken into account as much as possible, and I propose to at least change the order of the seeding back to what it was (so first TELO and then the wildcards for League seeding).



+ 1

... to LET ME STAY IN B!!!!!! ..... Or I hope no other TOP 20 player will sign in to throw me out of B!!!!! Quite egoistic, I know Embarassed


If you look at that group revising the rules and specially the seedings ... it looks to me very much like GET-THE-MOST-TOPS-AS-POSSIBLE-INTO A (Sysy, Trucker and Elric already in A, dea still not 100 percent but with good chances now ...) Get rid of that troublemaker ~maf and those good but at the moment not absolutely TOP players Lucullupus and Patterson ....

a bit sarcastic, I know ... and if I hurt anyone I apologize herewith.

Maybe it would be better to have one or two more not absolutely top players in such discussion, who can represent the oppinions of players of groups B, C, D ... old-league-players ... Be carefull, maybe I will join next time Wink Smile

Lucullupus schrieb am Tue, 07 January 2014 16:43

...
SYSYPHUS:
Maybe yes, that thread had to stay open since an explanation is needed. Yes, there was bad communication overall from us (including me) to advertise the New league. Yes, timing was really bad, not to say crap. Yes, that sucks to update rules right before the deadline.
Thanks a lot for these words. If you would have posted that before, there would have been no need for agitation and excitement. ...


+ 1 ... real good and sympathic part of your post Sysy ...

.... and I didn't want to go on agitating .... just needed to get rid of my few cents as well ...

... should become a lot of money soon with so many people spending Wink Very Happy
      
GenuineFauxFarm
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 18:06
Another positive from this.

People like the Wolf and Elka taking time to respond with concerns. Because they care about how it works and that participants are treated fairly.

I'm ready for a good season of league.

Rob
GFF
      
chrismmm_1987
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 18:41
dea, thanks for your explanation to my question.
I got your point however I don't share you opinion because onyx exactly expressed what I thought:

Quote:

OK I am confused here. Is there now going to be a group D? 4 levels?

If so you may have more people dropping out. The one benefit to Chris' notation about having B1 & B2 is the opportunity next year to move up to group A. (it seems obvious many want to move up a group even for the next year)

Same can be said for people in group C moving to group B. If you add in group D, you added another layer which is not good!!!
Sometimes you may need to consider the opinion of those of us apparent lower level players. You may be missing the stigma of being assigned and playing in group D. "OOOOOh the lowest level." With Chris' notation, lot of people in group C, and not that much stigma.


Definetely +1!

----------------------

And now there is the real surprised for me written by dea:

Quote:

The way to move up is mainly TELO and you can move from D directly to A if your TELO is high enough (or get there as a new entry).

Actually the chance to get a big TELO boost by playing League this year is higher if you are in a "lower" group.
If you finish last in B that will be a big drop in TELO, and you'll probably find yourself in D in 2015 (unless you play a perfect NC and a great SPWC to make up for the loss from League).
If you win C or D, chances are very good that you are in A or B in 2015 (unless you lose all your matches in NC).


Really?

I didn't get that point before even I read the rules (quickly).

So why not name this thing TELO-tournament instead of league?

With a league you're assuming promotions and relegations in the classic style ... (at least for me and I guess I am not the only one).

However, thanks for your work. Smile

And if the whole system of promotions is really based on TELO (what a strong influence of and for TELO!) and not on promotions and relegations in the classic style the difference between 3 or 4 divisions is not big, thus I can agree with deas initial post (at least partly).

But please rename it to Telo-Tournament as it's not a league anymore. Smile

Chris

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 07 January 2014 18:47]

      
TuS yaelka
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 18:51
@Chrismmm ...

that was what I was writing in one of my posts before (TELO-Tournament) ....

but in general I prefer the idea of NEW League ... it seems to be something in between

good idea ... and ...

I hope it will work out as well as it sounds
      
Qorlas
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 19:17
for all,

I am not going to make comments on the updated rules and I will not tell which parts I like more and which parts I like less.
I am just waiting for the deadline to form the divisions and give the schedules.

I am making this post to give an example of how movement in divisions will work for "Season 2" in Divisions A, B and C.

**** BE AWARE *** Divisions can be of less than 16 players according to the number of players signing up. In that case the missing places will be the places reserved for TELO integration.

2nd season
Division A:

A1
A2
A3
A4
A5
A6
A7
A8
A9
B1
B2
B3

Remaining 4 places will be given to the best 4 TELO players between all the singing up players even if they played in a lower division the first season.
In case of a not signing up of some of the first 12 players
A1
A2
A3
A4
A5
A6
A7
A8
A9
B1
B2
B3
there will be more places for TELO players. Yhey can be anyone! Also A16 or C1 or C4 or a new entry.


Division B

B4
B5
B6
B7
B8
B9
B10
C1
C2
C3

last 6 places best remaining with TELO.
Players between A10 and A16 DO NOT gain a place in B they will fall back in the TELO placing. If someone of
B4
B5
B6
B7
B8
B9
B10
C1
C2
C3

are already in A due to TELO you will have more places available.


Division C

C4
C5
C6
C7
C8
C9
C10
D11
D12
D21
D22

and the best players remaining in TELO.


As an example:
C4 can go to B or A if his TELO is good enough. He will free another place in Division C for another player.

Players arriving in the last places in Division A risk to go down to Divison C or D if their TELo drops too much.

I hope this explains the movements between divisions.... There will be a lot of momvement according to my view.


Dropouts and New entries: They will fall in the TELO pool.
From Season 2 the rights will be the ones I indicated... All the other players will fall back in the TELO pool.

Qorlas
      
ommie
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 20:37
"Was ommie sent to write that post right after Qorlas' preview post? (I was somehow feeling she was) .... "

Um, no. If you want details, I was up all night with babyphus and therefore sleep deprived and grouchy. I've thought about joining league again several times, but it never became attractive enough for me to do it. So when I saw the preview, it wasn't what I thought was the intent of NEW league. With Sysy still asleep, I posted my own thoughts. I had not paid much attention to what the board had been discussing. It just didn't make much sense. Too many rights diluted the competition.


" that you activated the top players intensely this time. If that would have been made formerly, the old league would have been a better success as well."

Do you guys not understand that new top players were not signing up because they didn't want to start at the bottom? Interest in old league was dying due to this reason. For me personally, my free time is precious and I have no interest spending that time playing people at the bottom. A new reset was desperately needed to bring more people in. DONE. If some of league 13 people are affected, sorry but you further the good of a better league going forward. Or maybe you wanted to continue in your fairytale playing the same 30 people over and over....

I understand that all players need a voice, but if these 'lower' ranked players are bored playing against people they can't necessarily beat...would a 0-6 from Anu or White Train be that much more interesting??


If people can't accept TELO, please explain why you've lost the tournament matches that you have...LUCK? My TELO rank would've been higher had I not lost or tied matches in NC this year...all due to bad decisions on my part Evil or Very Mad Rolling Eyes

Time to work on it and prove myself in league against players similar to my level... Razz

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 07 January 2014 21:15]

      
Lucullupus
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 22:04
ommie schrieb am Tue, 07 January 2014 20:37



Do you guys not understand that new top players were not signing up because they didn't want to start at the bottom? Interest in old league was dying due to this reason. For me personally, my free time is precious and I have no interest spending that time playing people at the bottom. A new reset was desperately needed to bring more people in. DONE. If some of league 13 people are affected, sorry but you further the good of a better league going forward. Or maybe you wanted to continue in your fairytale playing the same 30 people over and over....

I understand that all players need a voice, but if these 'lower' ranked players are bored playing against people they can't necessarily beat...would a 0-6 from Anu or White Train be that much more interesting??


No, sorry, I do not understand the new top players. You repeated with other words, what Truckerteller wrote here some days before.
But there were top players like Chrismmm or Angel, who played the Old League. By the way, bottom is relative. They had to start in C, so they were in A quickly. That is a good approach to league, bravo! To say, not having interest spending time against weaker players is not my approach.
0-6 against the top stars? hardly beatable? hmm, not sure, lets have a look at some NC results this year:
Schwen - Gilitrawangan 3:3
Goscha - GFF 2:4
Masimo - Gaialsaac 2:4
Dea - Zil 3:3
Lucullupus - Julaan 2,5:3,5
Kostas - Enix 2:4
Elric - Ninou Orange 2:4
MV - Lexx 2,5:3,5
Val - JenAck 2:4
Anu - Cat 3:3 and so on.
Dont forget, our game has a big component of luck. Never be sure to win against weaker opponents!

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 07 January 2014 23:16]

      
DrakeStorm
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 22:35
chrismmm_1987 wrote on Tue, 07 January 2014 09:41



So why not name this thing TELO-tournament instead of league?

With a league you're assuming promotions and relegations in the classic style ... (at least for me and I guess I am not the only one).Chris



TELO and this New League are completely different. It would be like calling this year's NC, the "Captain's Perceived Rankings" Tournament because that is what was used to seed it.

As you see from Qorlas post above, most spots go to league players. There are still promotions, just no relegations.

This League is still a league with some big modifications (Larger Groups, mid season deadlines, no relegations, etc.). But in order to get more participation there was a "reset" for division placement.

With more time, I would have argued for a few more league spots and gone back through all 13 leagues and ranked who should get those spots. But I think TELO is fairly accurate (if you have more than 30+ matches), so whether you are in A/B or C your matches should be competitive.

Lucullupus wrote on Tue, 07 January 2014 07:43

I am sure the rules will change again before EURO-League starts.
Yes, because many players have a lot of countable US matches, but few EURO matches in tournaments, so maybe the TELO list is not significant enough for the EURO league.


Euro-League will be using Game TELO instead of Match TELO so most players will have enough data. and seeding will be fairly accurate.
      
Truckerteller
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Tue, 07 January 2014 23:14
SOS Truckerteller wrote on Sat, 04 January 2014 05:03

I would like to play in a super strong group of 16 players that includes White Train, kostass, xbomanx, Patterson, Hecki and Rui.


OK, it seems I should have clarified myself there, since I think it has given the impression that this was my goal as a member of a six person panel.

This is my personal opinion as a player signing up for League and I mentioned it because I thought it was an opinion shared by others, like Goscha or WhiteTrain or xbomanx. It was the same opinion I shared with Sysyphus when he asked me as a player what a "New League" should look like. The exact names do not matter, they are just an example.

Of the players who will be in group A I think I have played half of them in a tournament in the last 5 years, most of them zero or one time. It's very hard to find a venue for these kind of matches, since you will not always reach the quarter finals of SPWC or NC, and I hoped that NEW League would be exactly that. Thankfully it is, and I'm excited.
      
JenAck
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Wed, 08 January 2014 14:16
hi all

there is a rason why i dont wrote all my questions/doubt in this thread.There are out some players wich like to make jokes on my mistakes.This hurts.I know i am not perfect in other language,but at last i try to communicate. Rolling Eyes

I wrote a long pm to all but in german.Dont know if Dea or Sven translate my pm.

Dea take the time to answer on my pm`s and she try to explain me telo and so also in skype.Thx Dea.

I am still not happy with all the decisions wich they make.
But insteand of shout behind their backs i prefered to wrote them a pm.Now they know my doubts.Maybe in the future they have also more time to think about one or the other proposal wich all of us have given until now.

After they got my criticism and suggestions i want also say:
please excuse if anyone has felt attacked by you personally
That was not my plan.
I know you all are trying your best even not all are happy.
We all are human and where human are working they make some mistakes.

Well now i have a big Please (?) at the TDs and i copy my post from march.I like Qorlas and i respect you but i hope you all will be a more strict in the future.

JenAck schrieb am Tue, 26 March 2013 11:24

Hi Qorlas, hi all,

Usually I don't like it when somebody criticises the TD, because I think it is really nice that somebody does this job.
However, now I would like to say something what I think.

I think it is not fair to players who take effort to finish their games within the deadline, to always increase the deadline for a few days or half a week.

Some players count simply on the fact that they can play their games afterwards. I think in 2 months, one has really enough time to play against 6 opponents.

Of course there are exceptions when it is really not possible to schedule a match, or when there is an emergency at home/at work, but when one already starts to play in the first weeks, then such bottlenecks would arise much less.

I also think it is annoying that some players don't react to PMs and then appear in the last 2 weeks in the lobby and cry at their opponents because they have time to play just then. Many players would like to arrange for the games and don't like to be taken off guard to play all of a sudden.

I have also encountered in the lobby, that the opponents are half an hour late and then have to leave after 3 or 4 games. When one knows that one can't play all games, than one should inform his/her opponent and give him the choice to start and postpone or to find a new date first.

This is not a critique to you, Qorlas, but much more to anyone who bends the rules.

greets Jen

      
Qorlas
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Wed, 08 January 2014 15:13
Rules are stricter Wink

I put a well defined to do for contacting the TD and clear deadlines. No one sould hope in extra time after the deadlines.... there will not be extra time!
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NEW League - Divisions preview (A, B and C) Thu, 09 January 2014 00:59
Well,

Thanks all for your contributions.
The debate in the forum is pretty similar as the one we had between us 6. Pretty tensed at the beginning, with several misunderstandings, different opinions.
But our opinions eventually coincided with the interests of the community (and yes Lucu, not everybody's particular interests Wink ).

At the dawn of the release of the other groups, I'd like to remind the players that it's probably the most exciting individual tournaments we've ever had.
Not only because of the turnout, but also because it will last 5 months.5 months of a busy lobby, 5 months of competition during which more than 600 matches will be played, 5 months of fun and 5 months of social interactions.

So please :
  • respect the game,
  • respect the rules,
  • respect the deadlines,
  • respect your opponent.

    Once it has started, players decide to make the tournament a success or not. One ruling is devaluating badly the meaning of the final standings. 3 or 4 rulings are killing the tournament.

    We are all accountable for our communication.
    We are all accountable for the longevity of the League.

    To make things clear too : Qorlas is the only TD of the tournament.
    Dea, Drake, Elric, Truck and I will only support him in the success of the tournament (some ticki, Telo, some reminders etc...) but we will have nothing to do with any of his decisions.

    Have fun all.




    [Mis à jour le: Thu, 09 January 2014 00:59]

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