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Iron Gut Heath
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values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Wed, 12 February 2014 23:13
I've never been in a tournament, so I'm curious to know how figures eliminated are counted. Is every tournament the same? The Italian tournament is going to count 1 for each infantry, 2 for each armor, 3 for each arty. How do some of the other tournaments already played or out there right now do it?
      
sam1812
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Thu, 13 February 2014 04:40
We count the actual number of figures eliminated.

The only variations on this I've ever heard are (1) whether or not to count figures recovered (by Medics, etc.) and (2) whether an eliminated Heroic Leader counts as a figure.
      
Jeronimon
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Thu, 13 February 2014 20:20
In some tournaments figures destroyed are counted. But in other tournaments the figures left on the battlefield/board at the end are counted.

As the matches are mostly decided on medals or match wins the figures are usually only needed in case of very close finishing by players (or a bigger field of paricipants).

I am curious to how the "Italian" figure count will influence the outcome of the tournament.
      
Iron Gut Heath
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Fri, 14 February 2014 14:47
Michele is proposing using those figure values in case of a tie after each player has a turn at axis and allies in the scenario. I just didn't know if other tournaments counted all figures eliminated equally or with similar values.

All of this is my beginner ignorance.

      
Jeronimon
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Fri, 14 February 2014 20:44
I was taught that you can't blame anone for ignorance, just for stupidity.

So ask away and become knowledgeable. Cool
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Fri, 14 February 2014 20:55
Don't the standard M44 rules state that for a single scenario count the number of figures if there is a tie after playing twice (both sides switching sides) - what I will call a match. Even if rules don't state it explicitly that's what pretty much everyone does. Also all figures have the same value - value of one - regardless of the figure type.

Since a tournament is usually a number of single scenarios played twice, i.e., a "match", its natural to apply the "rule" above to each scenario match.

I don't think you would want to total the number of figures from all matches into to one final total to break some sort of tournament tie as usually the tournament rules take care of that by elimination etc.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 14 February 2014 20:57]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Fri, 14 February 2014 21:13
I would agree with Sgt Storm. The tie-breaking rules don't have to be any more complicated than necessary. It will be extremely rare for two players to get the exact same score AND the same number of eliminated tokens.

Plus, if people know that figures are the tie-breaker, they can focus on picking off a few extra figures before a win...

The point system you're talking about will work just fine, but it's adding more work. In the end it's up to you but there is already a ton of work that comes with running a tournament and I would suggest keeping things as simple as possible. Smile
      
Jeronimon
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Sat, 15 February 2014 08:28
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 14 February 2014 21:13

I would agree with Sgt Storm. The tie-breaking rules don't have to be any more complicated than necessary. It will be extremely rare for two players to get the exact same score AND the same number of eliminated tokens.


But as we regularly see in tournaments, this does happen. Smile


rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 14 February 2014 21:13

Plus, if people know that figures are the tie-breaker, they can focus on picking off a few extra figures before a win...

And for the above stated reason people will go for the extra figures before the win to solidify or better their position in the tournament.
      
50th
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Sat, 15 February 2014 12:53
I've been working on my own combat value system. It doesn't just give an arbitrary number of points to each figure, it assigns points based on things like the number of figures per unit, range, attack dice, and how hard the unit is to kill. I have been using Microsoft Excel to crunch the numbers and as soon as I am ready, I will put it on my user page.

Laughing
      
tank commander
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Tue, 18 February 2014 11:34
For the Ladder Group I run it is simple.

For a split match:

1) most medals won - if tied

2) most figs elim - if tied

The Match goes to the higher ranked played.

In the 42 rounds completed so far (appox. 400 matches) I have only had to go to that 3rd tiebreaker a handful of times.

      
tank commander
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Sat, 22 February 2014 12:40
tank commander wrote on Tue, 18 February 2014 05:34

For the Ladder Group I run it is simple.

For a split match:

1) most medals won - if tied

2) most figs elim - if tied

The Match goes to the higher ranked played.

In the 42 rounds completed so far (appox. 400 matches) I have only had to go to that 3rd tiebreaker a handful of times.




I went back and...

In the 42 completed rounds there have been 375 matches played.

Only 42 matches (11.2%) have been tied in medals with 39 (92.8 %) being decided on figs. Only 3 (or less than 1 % of all matches played) had to go the the third and final tie breaker in which case the higher ranked player won the match.

      
Iron Gut Heath
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Sat, 22 February 2014 13:56
That's good to know, Tank Commander. It seems like figure count resolves just about all of it.

So, a question...why give the third stage tie breaker to the higher rank? Is that M'44 official rules? Or what is the reasoning on that?

An initial thought of mine was that if the match went that far and the "higher ranked" player hadn't pulled off medals or figures enough to win it preference should be given to the lower ranked challenger who "gave them heck...". Just a thought. I really have no experience in tournaments...

Thoughts of a newbie,

Iron Gut
      
sam1812
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Sat, 22 February 2014 15:07
The Ladder is a hierarchical tournament, IGH, so each person's current rank on the Ladder is based on his previous performance. So the higher-ranked player has defended his position.
      
Iron Gut Heath
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Sat, 22 February 2014 15:47
Right! I totally see the sense of that in a ladder tourney.

So, i guess going into say season 11, ranking on Dow carries the same weight...

Do you mark ranking at the opening of the season and use that to measure/decide (for those 1% decision needs)? Wink
      
sam1812
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Re:values for figures eliminated in previous tournaments? Sat, 22 February 2014 17:06
The Ladder (on Vassal) and the League (on Memoir Online) are two completely different things.

In the Ladder tournament, we use the players' positions on the ladder.

In the League, a tie is just a tie, and each player gets credit for 1 won game. The match wins aren't counted.

I run a Memoir tournament at a convention, and our format is single elimination. If the match is tied on medals and figures, in rounds 3 and later, we use cumulative games won and cumulative medals. Our last-resort tiebreaker for that is a random number drawn at the start of the tournament. (Players who bring a game draw their numbers from a higher series, so this is an incentive to bring a game.)

It would be better not to need a random number tiebreaker, but we need a way to keep the tournament moving without delaying everybody else.
      
    
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