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blaxnlion
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New idea of power Mon, 03 February 2014 13:02
Hi everyone ! So here's an idea of speacial power I had last night, that might give the game a new dimension, at least for the one who grabs it :

Charismatic (?) : when choosing a Charmismatic race, take another race at random from the pile (not from the other five races visible) ; if no pile is left, choose the race from the most expensive combo that wasn't chosen yet.

From now on, this race is helping the Charismatic race. Take the amount of token each tile grants respectively (for example 6 Charismatic Giants + 6 helping Gobelins). They form a whole pile of tokens that you can use for normal turns of conquest. However, certain rules have to be taken into account :

- special capacities can stack, but when it implies bonuses from certain regions, the bonus is granted only if the corresponding race has redeployed at least on token in the concerned region ;
- this is also true for conquests : a reduction of the cost of the attack can apply only if, among the tokens you use for attack, there is at least one token of the race which is concerned by this attacking bonus ;
- the two rules above can be made general, for all kinds of special capacities implying the race tokens.
- when one of your regions is conquered and both Charismatic and helping races are inside, you can dispose of the token of your choice (particular case : if one of the two is th Elves then you lose no token) ;
- when going into decline, you can decide, for each region that held both races, which token stays, but both can never stay at the same time (even for Ghouls : if the other race they accompany is left in a region they were occupying as well, they're kept on the edge of the board till next turn), but you can't place a token from one race in a region where this race wasn't before declining ;
- if the last Charismatic race token is wiped out of the map, the possible regions occupied by the helping race have to be emptied IMMEDIATLY, whether they're active or in decline. For active Charismatic Kobolds, if such thing happen, they'll always be a Kobolds left. While you keep your helping race active, the latter can stay on the board and carry on attacks, but as the last Kobold will be lost once you decline, the helping race will have to leave.
- The first conquest must always imply at least one Charismatic race token.
- if the helping race is the Homonculi, take 7 of them plus 2 VPs, or 8 Homonculi like they were Ratmen.

Example : Charismatic Giants and their loyal Gobelins. If they want to conquer a Mountain with a single in-decline tokens in it, the player can use 1 Giant and 2 Gobelins, or 2 Giants and 1 Gobelins or 3 Gobelins to benefit from the Gobelins' special capacity. You can then conquer surrounding regions at one less token than necessary in the first two cases, but not the 3rd one as there isn't any Giant on the Mountain.

Another example : Charismatic Trolls with their loyal Halflings : the first conquest can be done anywhere if it implies at least one Halfling, but there has to be a Troll with them. While redeploying, a Troll can't stay in a Hole-in-the-Ground alone, unless you want to lose the Hole.


So what do you think ? I still didn't check all possible combinations, neither did I fully analyse the strategic interest of such power, but it seems good to me. If you find something that you think is relevant, don't be shy and tell me Wink

Thanks for your interest !

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 03 February 2014 13:03]

      
Leeroy1
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Re:New idea of power Sun, 09 February 2014 13:46
Hey, nice innovation! I should try and come up with my own race/power sometime.

Anyways, onto the actual power: I think it's just a little too overpowered. I mean, most powers only grant about 5 extra tokens, and this one can grant you more tokens (and a nice ability if with the right combo). I think maybe you need to scale down the ability just a tad less. It might be hard, and I really like this idea, but there is way too much upside with this and not enough of a downside to balance it out.

Great concept, keep it up! If I think of anything that may help, I'll reply back to here with it!
      
blaxnlion
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Re:New idea of power Sun, 09 February 2014 15:09
Leeroy1 wrote on Sun, 09 February 2014 13:46

Hey, nice innovation! I should try and come up with my own race/power sometime.

Anyways, onto the actual power: I think it's just a little too overpowered. I mean, most powers only grant about 5 extra tokens, and this one can grant you more tokens (and a nice ability if with the right combo). I think maybe you need to scale down the ability just a tad less. It might be hard, and I really like this idea, but there is way too much upside with this and not enough of a downside to balance it out.

Great concept, keep it up! If I think of anything that may help, I'll reply back to here with it!


That's why I set the "helping race disappears if the Charismatic one does" thing. Plus, White Ladies, Charismatic or not, would weaken the combination, because it would only grant two immune regions in decline. Compare if they're coupled with Ratman. 10 tokens in total, with a power that is two regions immune in decline. Compare with Humans with the power Heroic. I didn't think of a way to counteract this. Maybe the possibility, each turn, to switch one token of a race with a token from the other.
      
jepmn
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Re:New idea of power Tue, 11 February 2014 21:00
Here's an idea: on the charismatic power badge, it has a 3 or 4 unit value. You add that value to the unit value for the race the power is with. So just like normal so far. But you now get to get a TOTAL number of units equal to that number. I think 3 might be the best unit value for the power since you can potentially get teams two like Sorcerers and Elves or Pixies and Amazons.

So Charismatic Ratmen would give let you team up with Halflings, but you'd be limited to 11 total race tokens (3 + 8) to start with.

I think I'd find them more interesting with a few other limitations, though:

First off, I don't like the mixing of the two sets of tokens in one region. I just think it needlessly adds complexity to the game and will result in much rules ambiguity and adjudication. I'd want to let the player play both at the same time. They can alternate, play all of one before the other, etc. Race1 can still attack things that (only) Race2 is adjacent to and vice versa, though. So basically, they share adjacency rules but not anything else. A Giant in a mountain doesn't give their buddies the Elves a -1 to attack next to it.

Second, I'd like it if you were always forced to discard the second race when you went into decline. I feel otherwise it's just potentially too powerful. It needs this weakness.

Third, since you have two active races, Sorcerers can convert one of EACH on their turn. MUHAHAHA

Overall, I think it's a really cool concept and to my knowledge hasn't been suggested before.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 14 February 2014 18:46]

      
blaxnlion
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Re:New idea of power Tue, 11 February 2014 22:18
jepmn wrote on Tue, 11 February 2014 21:00

Here's an idea: on the charismatic power badge, it has a 3 or 4 unit value. You add that value to the unit value for the race the power is with. So just like normal so far. But you now get to get a TOTAL number of units equal to that number. I think 3 might be the best unit value for the power since you can potentially get teams two like Sorcerers and Elves or Pixies and Amazons.

So Charismatic Ratmen would give let you team up with Halflings, but you'd be limited to 11 total race tokens (3 + Cool to start with.

I think I'd find them more interesting with a few other limitations, though:

First off, I don't like the mixing of the two sets of tokens in one region. I just think it needlessly adds complexity to the game and will result in much rules ambiguity and adjudication. I'd want to let the player play both at the same time. They can alternate, play all of one before the other, etc. Race1 can still attack things that (only) Race2 is adjacent to and vice versa, though. So basically, they share adjacency rules but not anything else. A Giant in a mountain doesn't give their buddies the Elves a -1 to attack next to it.

Second, I'd like it if you were always forced to discard the second race when you went into decline. I feel otherwise it's just potentially too powerful. It needs this weakness.

Third, since you have two active races, Sorcerers can convert one of EACH on their turn. MUHAHAHA

Overall, I think it's a really cool concept and to my knowledge hasn't been suggested before.


Good try ; unfortunately, I think it weakens the Charismatic race a lot. But it's worth digging a little deeper ^^ Take Pixies with Halflings for example. So they're 14 altogether, with two immune regions, and one last extra token that can be used for defense. I think it's frantically weaker than Heroi Pixies. But I am doubting : are you suggesting it would be 11 Pixies + 3 Halflings, or the amount of each is decidable ?

I don't think mixing two races would be that complicated. Like I described this power, you would still have to consider both races separately ; you can use Giants' power with Elves, but only if the latter are accompanied by at least one Giant for each attack.
      
jepmn
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Re:New idea of power Wed, 12 February 2014 16:48
You decide the ratio. You just have to abide by the total number. And of course limited by the total race tokens in the box.

Keep in mind with Halflings you get the added bonus of deciding where to pop up on the board, something Heroic Pixies cannot do and could be crucial in some games.

But I think it's a mistake to consider where other combinations might be stronger and consider where Charismatic might be stronger. Consider Tritons + Trolls. You take enough Tritons to secure the coastline, then you layer on the Trolls in front of you for better defensive purposes. Or Kobolds + Skeletons. You could actually get only 2 Kobolds and 12 Skeletons. Those extra Skeletons up front would allow you to more easily multiply your Skeletons. Or Pixies + Pygmies. Put your Pygmies next to your enemy so they have to attack them to get to your Pixies behind them.

All of these are fairly powerful. I don't think SO powerful that the game is unbalanced by it, but I fear what would happen if they had all the power they have PLUS all the power your extra rules would give them.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:New idea of power Wed, 12 February 2014 17:55
jepmn wrote on Wed, 12 February 2014 16:48

You decide the ratio. You just have to abide by the total number. And of course limited by the total race tokens in the box.

Keep in mind with Halflings you get the added bonus of deciding where to pop up on the board, something Heroic Pixies cannot do and could be crucial in some games.

But I think it's a mistake to consider where other combinations might be stronger and consider where Charismatic might be stronger. Consider Tritons + Trolls. You take enough Tritons to secure the coastline, then you layer on the Trolls in front of you for better defensive purposes. Or Kobolds + Skeletons. You could actually get only 2 Kobolds and 12 Skeletons. Those extra Skeletons up front would allow you to more easily multiply your Skeletons. Or Pixies + Pygmies. Put your Pygmies next to your enemy so they have to attack them to get to your Pixies behind them.

All of these are fairly powerful. I don't think SO powerful that the game is unbalanced by it, but I fear what would happen if they had all the power they have PLUS all the power your extra rules would give them.


You've got a point. But the power they have with the helping race is the power they don't have thanks to a special power, it's all the same, isn't it ?

And one thing about the Heroes : both can move while Holes-in-the-Ground can't ^^ Anyway... It sounds better like this !
      
jepmn
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Re:New idea of power Fri, 14 February 2014 00:01
Another useful comparison might be Hordes Of. This essentially gives you 7 units while an active race plus your race's base units. That's the entirety of the power and you lose the 2 hordes tokens when you go into decline.

If you let each race have their normal base, you'd get something like a second race of ratmen which would give you 8 extra units. So right there, you've got a pure numbers advantage over Hordes Of. Even if you got something like Elves, Skeletons or Goblins with only 6 tokens, it's still arguably much stronger than Hordes Of because of the racial ability you'll get with the new race.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:New idea of power Fri, 14 February 2014 00:18
jepmn wrote on Fri, 14 February 2014 00:01

Another useful comparison might be Hordes Of. This essentially gives you 7 units while an active race plus your race's base units. That's the entirety of the power and you lose the 2 hordes tokens when you go into decline.

If you let each race have their normal base, you'd get something like a second race of ratmen which would give you 8 extra units. So right there, you've got a pure numbers advantage over Hordes Of. Even if you got something like Elves, Skeletons or Goblins with only 6 tokens, it's still arguably much stronger than Hordes Of because of the racial ability you'll get with the new race.


Not necessarily. If you take White Ladies accompanied by Ratmen and you took 7 Whites Ladies and 3 Ratman , it would be like Hordes of, but with three tokens, like you said ; on the other hand, if all Ratmen are conquered when in decline, White Ladies disappear. So basically a combination of two races is like a Hordes of power, with one extra token for attack and defense, but with restrictions on where to apply such or such of their power, and with the possibility to lose your Charismatic race at once. That's why I set this rule.
      
jepmn
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Re:New idea of power Fri, 14 February 2014 16:32
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. How would you take 7 white ladies and 3 accompanying ratmen? Is that supposed to be by your rule or mine?

I think you're following mine, but then you're mixing in rules that seem from yours (all declined ratmen being conquered means white ladies disappear). With my rules, decline works as normal without special changes.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:New idea of power Fri, 14 February 2014 18:13
jepmn wrote on Fri, 14 February 2014 16:32

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. How would you take 7 white ladies and 3 accompanying ratmen? Is that supposed to be by your rule or mine?

I think you're following mine, but then you're mixing in rules that seem from yours (all declined ratmen being conquered means white ladies disappear). With my rules, decline works as normal without special changes.


Yes, it was by following your proposed rule. What I mean is, taking 8 Ratmen and 2 White Ladies wouldn't be interesting, if you compare it to Heroic Ratmen. I added this special feature about declining, so as not to balance the fact that Charismatic is like Hordes of but with three tokens instead of two. A rule to be respected when declining is that you cannot leave a White Lady in a region where you didn't redeploy one, the turn before declining. If a region contained both, you can choose which one you leave.
      
jepmn
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Re:New idea of power Fri, 14 February 2014 18:46
If you drew Charismatic Ratmen, you'd get a total of 11 troops (3 + 8). If you were able to get WL (but think about the low chance of that), you could make your pick 4 RM and 7 WL (since there are a max of 7 WL tokens). Compared to Hordes Of WL, I agree that this is a slightly buffed version. Though this is somewhat offset by my rule that you can't mix race tokens. That way, you can't use these forces as a group and they'd work closer to ghouls. Speaking of which, perhaps it should follow like ghouls in that you always play the race with the charismatic badge first.

But I think you adding yet another rule like you just did makes this power even less appealing from a gameplay standpoint. SW is already a complicated game and you've already heaped rule upon rule on just this ONE power. You need to simplify. That's why I suggested the tweaks I did. They keep the rules as close to base rules as possible.

But as long as we're brainstorming, imagine the possible scenario. Player has:
Hordes Of Pixies in decline
Spirit Ghouls in decline
Charismatic Skeletons
assisted by Sorcerers

Wowee zowee. They'd have FOUR different race tokens on the board. Hope this isn't a 2p game...
      
blaxnlion
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Re:New idea of power Fri, 14 February 2014 19:42
jepmn wrote on Fri, 14 February 2014 18:46

If you drew Charismatic Ratmen, you'd get a total of 11 troops (3 + Cool. If you were able to get WL (but think about the low chance of that), you could make your pick 4 RM and 7 WL (since there are a max of 7 WL tokens). Compared to Hordes Of WL, I agree that this is a slightly buffed version. Though this is somewhat offset by my rule that you can't mix race tokens. That way, you can't use these forces as a group and they'd work closer to ghouls. Speaking of which, perhaps it should follow like ghouls in that you always play the race with the charismatic badge first.

But I think you adding yet another rule like you just did makes this power even less appealing from a gameplay standpoint. SW is already a complicated game and you've already heaped rule upon rule on just this ONE power. You need to simplify. That's why I suggested the tweaks I did. They keep the rules as close to base rules as possible.

But as long as we're brainstorming, imagine the possible scenario. Player has:
Hordes Of Pixies in decline
Spirit Ghouls in decline
Charismatic Skeletons
assisted by Sorcerers

Wowee zowee. They'd have FOUR different race tokens on the board. Hope this isn't a 2p game...


That might be complicated for you but I find it intuitive ^^

I think I would keep my 8+2 Ratmen+WL, rather than giving Charismatic a 3, because it would unbalance too many combinations.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 14 February 2014 19:42]

      
jepmn
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Re:New idea of power Fri, 14 February 2014 23:43
But you're evaluating it only on the lowest possible troop number and concluding that makes it not unbalanced. You're completely leaving out all the OTHER races which have far more than 2 units. All those ones where you have 8 + 5, 8 + 6, 8 + 11, 8 + 9. Those are unbalanced, even with all the fiddly rules you've outlined.
      
jepmn
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Re:New idea of power Fri, 14 February 2014 23:49
Oh, and I didn't even touch on the Igors yet. Their racial bonus isn't unit-based. It is rather powerful, though, multiplying through all the troops being killed on the board. To balance that, Igors only have a base of 4. Yet your method would have 11 pixies going around and murdering as many units as they can to create new Igors. And if people killed the pixies, it'd just help create new Igors. In a 3p game, you'd become an unstoppable killing machine.

I think this is just one of the many problems when you have a game that is balanced on never being able to field more than X number of units without a strong disadvantage. There's no real disadvantage to this combo.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:New idea of power Fri, 14 February 2014 23:54
jepmn wrote on Fri, 14 February 2014 23:43

But you're evaluating it only on the lowest possible troop number and concluding that makes it not unbalanced. You're completely leaving out all the OTHER races which have far more than 2 units. All those ones where you have 8 + 5, 8 + 6, 8 + 11, 8 + 9. Those are unbalanced, even with all the fiddly rules you've outlined.


No, they're not much more unbalanced. If you take Ratmen with Humans, it's like Forest or Swamp Ratmen, with one extra token but with the possibility to lose all your Ratman if Humans go extinct and vice-versa. And that's the same for all other combinations, since a race and a race giving the same advantage only differ by one token.

Although Ratmen with Pixies give 19 tokens for attack and 8 for defense with my idea ; Pixies with Bivouacking is like 16 for attack and 5 for defense. While with your idea, Charismatic Ratmen at 8 would get five Pixies, which would MUCH weaker than Bivouacking.

Anyway, there are actually a lot of calculations to be done and that show that this power is a tad complex, not from its explaning though. So I don't know... and neither do you ? ^^
      
jepmn
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Re:New idea of power Sat, 15 February 2014 00:44
Not from its explaining?

If I was to introduce this to someone, even explaining to them the large number of rules you've laid out, I'd be stumped when they asked me:

* If you attack an in decline region with two barbarians and two goblins, can you redeploy all the goblin into another region?

* If someone conquers my Charismatic regions with Fauns, do I have to pick my free token from the ones that were conquered or could I pick either race?

* If I conquer a mountain with a giant, do I only get the -1 bonus on surrounding regions if I also attack with giants, or can I attack them with any race and still get the bonus?

* If I have Pixies combined with anything, do I have to only leave one pixie in the region by itself, or is it just that I can't have 2+ pixies in the region and can have plenty of other races?

* Can I use the sorcerer's power to convert a lone token in a region not bordered by my sorcerers.

* Can I spread my amazons to maximum thinness, using all the extra 4 token and then swap them out with the other race during redeployment but before you have to take the 4 off the board?

These are just the ones I thought of pretty quickly. I think there's going to be a LOT of explaining.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:New idea of power Sat, 15 February 2014 10:34
jepmn wrote on Sat, 15 February 2014 00:44

Not from its explaining?

If I was to introduce this to someone, even explaining to them the large number of rules you've laid out, I'd be stumped when they asked me:

* If you attack an in decline region with two barbarians and two goblins, can you redeploy all the goblin into another region?

* If someone conquers my Charismatic regions with Fauns, do I have to pick my free token from the ones that were conquered or could I pick either race?

* If I conquer a mountain with a giant, do I only get the -1 bonus on surrounding regions if I also attack with giants, or can I attack them with any race and still get the bonus?

* If I have Pixies combined with anything, do I have to only leave one pixie in the region by itself, or is it just that I can't have 2+ pixies in the region and can have plenty of other races?

* Can I use the sorcerer's power to convert a lone token in a region not bordered by my sorcerers.

* Can I spread my amazons to maximum thinness, using all the extra 4 token and then swap them out with the other race during redeployment but before you have to take the 4 off the board?

These are just the ones I thought of pretty quickly. I think there's going to be a LOT of explaining.


* You can attack this region at one less token than necessary (So you would only need 2 Goblins, or 1 Goblins and 1 Barbarian, if it is a Hill with no defensive token in it ; but if you attack this region only with Barbarians, you will need three of them. At the moment of redeploying, you can only redeploy the Goblins as each Barbarian is not allowed to do so.

* If both races were in this region, you can pick the token of the race that suits you better. But if there was only one race or the other in this region, the token you get is the one from this race.

* Like I said before, you can apply a race's special feature if you use at least one of its tokens - in this case, to attack. Giants' bonus can only be applied if you conquer a region adjacent to a Mountain containing at least one Giant, with at least one Giant, no matter what else is accompanying it.

* Pixies' special feature also applies : no matter how you redeploy, the rule states clearly that you can only leave one Pixie per region. You can redeploy the other race the way you want with each Pixie, if they don't have a redeploying constraint.

* For Sorcerers, same thing as for the Giants. It's only your Sorcerers that know how to convert an ennemy, not the accompanying race. And to use this power, adjacency is needed. In your case, you therefore cannot apply this power - unless you decide to leave a Sorcerer in this region when gathering your troops.

* If I stick to the rule, things follow this order :
1) Finish conquering.
2) Take the tokens back in your hand, leaving one per region, and abandon regions with Amazons if necessary, to gather at least 4 Amazons in your hand.
3) Put the 4 Amazons aside. It is of course absolutely forbidden to put even a single token from the other race aside.
4) Redeploy. You cannot place an Amazon, or a token from the other race, in a region you just abandonned, just like when Amazons are on their own, with no accompanying race.

At step 2, you can perfectly take the maximum of Amazons back in your hand from the regions where the other race is also found. That way, you can avoid being forced to abandon regions ! You just cannot modify the initial configuration before redeployment, that's why you have to think carefully on which tokens you're going to use for attack, and how. May I point out that you have to take similar precautions with Hordes of tokens.

I think that all of your questions can be gathered in a single rule I wrote at the very beginning :

Special capacities can stack, but when it implies bonuses from certain regions, the bonus is granted only if the corresponding race has redeployed at least on token in the concerned region. This is also true for conquests : a reduction of the cost of the attack can apply only if, among the tokens you use for attack, there is at least one token of the race which is concerned by this attacking bonus. That can be made general, for all kinds of special capacities implying the race tokens.

If you have any other "singularity" to point out, I'd be glad to answer you. Just keep and mind - and possibly, wonder - if this singularity cannot already be explained by the rule I wrote above.

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 15 February 2014 11:02]

      
jepmn
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Re:New idea of power Sun, 16 February 2014 21:12
I know you feel that everything is covered by your simple rule, but try to step outside yourself for a minute. I'm not a stupid person. I play very very complicated board games all the time. These were ambiguities to me and I could see reading them multiple ways. Here's just and example:

Quote:

Pixies' special feature also applies : no matter how you redeploy, the rule states clearly that you can only leave one Pixie per region. You can redeploy the other race the way you want with each Pixie, if they don't have a redeploying constraint.


I was actually asking whether it had to be one pixie and not other race tokens or it could be one pixie and any other race tokens.

But don't bother answering. I won't be asking any more clarifications, either. My entire point is that stacks of questions like these will come up, and as I said even with your rule, I don't think they all follow. Small world rules are simply not written to deal with races being combined. They write rules as tersely as possible to fit everything on sheets or within a certain length for manuals. So there WILL be stuff that's ambiguous. It's like that even for the base game. It just magnifies for putting multiple races together.

And that's apart from the OP problem.

But this will likely be my last post on the subject. As I said, I think your idea is interesting when played much more simply as two races that act completely independently of each other and that have a unit value on the charismatic power that limits total units more. If I can convince anyone to play it, I'll be trying this power out.

Take care.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:New idea of power Sun, 16 February 2014 22:12
jepmn wrote on Sun, 16 February 2014 21:12

I know you feel that everything is covered by your simple rule, but try to step outside yourself for a minute. I'm not a stupid person. I play very very complicated board games all the time. These were ambiguities to me and I could see reading them multiple ways. Here's just and example:

Quote:

Pixies' special feature also applies : no matter how you redeploy, the rule states clearly that you can only leave one Pixie per region. You can redeploy the other race the way you want with each Pixie, if they don't have a redeploying constraint.


I was actually asking whether it had to be one pixie and not other race tokens or it could be one pixie and any other race tokens.

But don't bother answering. I won't be asking any more clarifications, either. My entire point is that stacks of questions like these will come up, and as I said even with your rule, I don't think they all follow. Small world rules are simply not written to deal with races being combined. They write rules as tersely as possible to fit everything on sheets or within a certain length for manuals. So there WILL be stuff that's ambiguous. It's like that even for the base game. It just magnifies for putting multiple races together.

And that's apart from the OP problem.

But this will likely be my last post on the subject. As I said, I think your idea is interesting when played much more simply as two races that act completely independently of each other and that have a unit value on the charismatic power that limits total units more. If I can convince anyone to play it, I'll be trying this power out.

Take care.


I wouldn't have replied because the answer was in my initial post. And I'm not stupid either, I thought all possible combinations through. Although if you're afraid of too much ambiguity, I approve your idea of playing two races seperatly, even if it doesn't quite fit with my original idea.
      
    
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