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*player38092
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Sat, 16 November 2013 15:51
Mixing real life with a gaming environment can be misleading: does one approve of satanism if he plays sorcerers? Or of voodoo when using zombies?
SmallWorld is about war, colonisation and ethnical discrimination, after all (as Chess is about regicide)...

But we all have our limits and anyone has fully the right to play according to one's conscience.

[Mis à jour le: Sat, 16 November 2013 15:57]

      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Mon, 18 November 2013 22:29
Sorry but vodoo or sorcerers are not living communities being menaced on different european countries, you're missing the point. Not even white ladies or barbarians:)
I don't think this thread deserves a flame war. Just wanted to state that I simply don't use Gypsies tokens when I play SW.
Also, immersion is an important part of any gaming experience and abstraction don't always come along.
Maybe for US players this is a ridiculous discussion but this is a hot issue in Europe now
It'd be interesting to know the opinion of the 'Gypsies' race designer in order to understand or focus the use of the tokens (for some players, not every SW player, pls don't misunderstand me).
Why not changing its name on future releases? The mechanics are great anyway
      
*player38092
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Mon, 18 November 2013 23:15
I am Swiss, so I believe that I do know what is happening in Europe.

"Gypsies" is not a real people's name.
There are many tribes of nomadic people (Roms, Yenish, Manouch).
I have friends of those three last tribes.
But "Gypsies" is not a name they give themselves.
When I wrote of the "pastor of Gypsies", actually it is the name "Tsigane" which is used in French.
SW in French uses even another name : Gitanes. In the old times, it even was a trademark for cigarettes - with no racial slur in it.

In real life, I am a pastor and Roms often drop in for worship at our place - one even gave a hand at the piano, as he played really well.
One of my pastor colleagues is a Yenish, another a Manouch.
They have a lot of humour and know how to laugh at themselves.
We love one another, respect one another and pray one for the other.

Of course there is a great problem about nomadic people coming from Eastern Europe being mistreated in their countries of origin - but note that many of those who are called "Roms" are simply Romanian and Bulgarian "working poor" illegal immigrants who do come from a sedentarian background.
European countries are trying to find solutions for those people (for an example, the town of Lyons, realising that 60% of those immigrants in that great city came from a specific town in Romania, payed for making that town more comfortable, with electricity, water, heating provided, and it solved most of that problem).
There are still a lot of improvements to make things better, of course.

But there are many more "people of the journey" who live and travel in our Western European countries and who are quite well integrated (about 100'000 in France, who have a French passport, for an example).
There still can be tensions between sedentarian and nomadic people, because their ways of life must constantly adapt. But globally, things are getting better.

You always will find racist people, of course, everywhere.

I reject PC armchair moralists' finger pointing. They are just theoreticians, speaking about people they never actually met, trying to enslave other people with their unsolved feel of guilt and with their ideological domination agenda.
Their posture doesn't solve any of the problems, but it just gives the judgemental people some inner relief.

Their accusation of racism against DoW is about as ridiculous as when I read a player complaining that SW was sexist (in its base format) because only one race was female (the Amazons).

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 18 November 2013 23:27]

      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Mon, 18 November 2013 23:40
I don't say and I don't think DoW is a racist game. DoW is a great game that I play (and enjoy) very frequently.
My point is that the Gypsies tokens relate to something real today.
Gypsies, tziganes, roms, gitanos, manouches, gitans are terms used very often by people and media to talk about, let's say, gypsies. So often that these are mixed and all these words refer to the same people.

No racism, just better component names for a fantasy game. Don't misunderstand me, games can evolve and change to cover a wider range of opinions:)
...

I've re-read your post today and I definitely didn't like it
You're overreacting and I don't see what's your opinion about the game or relates to the game
Good for you if you have Yannish friends in the mountains but again I don't see the relationship with gaming and this do mot allow you to treat other people as racists or supposse that everybody except you is a racist

You're finally mixing gitans with travelling people with poor people from the east. Come on!!!!...
If you really want to discuss about the exact composition of gypsy tribes, post on an anthropology forum

Pc armchair moralist fingerpointing???? You are just flaming.

Gypsies tokens designer is American, i'd like to know his opinion on the naming he'd choose. I've already got your point of view Robin, thru many posts.
Thanks

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 19 November 2013 09:39]

      
AngryMarine
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 11:53
"Gypsy" is a neutral term in English. And all its analogs in other languages are also neutral. I am 100 % that the race designer did not mean anything bad. If you see negative connotation it only means that something is wrong with you and with your attitude towards Gypsies, even if you are not aware of it. All through the ages Gypsies were surrounded by mystery, especially female Gypsies. Their passion for cartomancy, peculiar way of life...All that helped Gypsies to nomadize to a fantasy board game. But still mixing a fantasy race with real people living in different regions of Europe is kind of strange. How can it possibly come to someone's mind?!
      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 13:10
Pls don't assume any negative attitude towards anybody, even if I don't know about it! That was funny. I didn't even wrote 'negative' anywhere. It's the only race in SW with a real name.
Again, most future-tellers are not related to any specific social group, don't assume too much.
Reminder: I only want to know the reason why the designer used that particular name in order to get an official opinion about it, and eventually reconsider using those tokens. I've also mentioned the possibility, as other players did, to discuss about changing the race name on future releases to enhance (even a little) the fantasy mode of the game.
Also, to discuss about social communities and their history, I suggest you to post on the proper forums.
      
nathaniel_z
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 13:50
Well it is not the only real name...

Priestesses? Pygmies? Now don't forget that Barbarians were all people not citizens of the roman empire (North of the Po River in Italy), therefore gauls, celts, egyptians...
Don't forget dwarves (dwarfism)
And even Cultists
And if you really want, white ladies, well why not hispanic ladies, black ladies, ...

Racism can be seen wherever one wants to see it. I see it personally as a very nice game that uses lore-related stereotypes (greedy dwarves, immortal elves, nomad gypsies) and am not at all worried that my kids will turn into racist SOBs because they play with a knife-throwing, nomad gypsy (unless they are ransacking gypsies, but that's another story)
      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 14:02
Sorry but you are wrong, priestesses are not social communities but guilds
Barbarian is an old name coming used for foreigners on the roman empire
Pygmies is an occidentalized name for tribes in central africa (ex: Mbuti). this is a particular subject discussed on anthropology
Dwarves is mostly a mythological name used in occident for people with body growth problems. it has been used so widely in mythology (where the name come from) that is accepted as a fantasy term, however some people may not like it.

So, do you want to use the tokens? use them. Do whatever you want but stop threatening other people's opinion and pointing as racist whatever is not exactly your opinion. Maybe you are just a racist person...

The person who started this post is not posting anymore here, there are too many trolls around maybe:(
      
*player38092
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 15:33
player1445405 écrit le Wed, 20 November 2013 14:02

The person who started this post is not posting anymore here, there are too many trolls around maybe:(
I believe that the OP is much closer to a troll - after the internet definition - than anyone else on this thread.
Launching a polemic then scurrying away is quite exactly what a troll does.
Disagreeing with an ideological stance is not trolling.

BTW why do you use the term "race" while showing some ethnological knowledge about the definition of Pygmies?
From a scientific point of view, there only is one human race and Gypsies, which is a generic (and fictious) name for many different ethnical groups are quite far from what science calls a "race".

I certainly don't think that you are a "racist", but that way of describing Gypsies would make some people suspect you to be one.
      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 15:46
I meant SW "races" you troll:p
      
*player38092
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 15:47
player1445405 écrit le Wed, 20 November 2013 15:46

I meant SW "races" you troll:p
So you now have proof that DoW are racists... Laughing
      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 15:51
anyway I'm relieved and I thank you that you don't consider me a racist. I'm ok with fantasy "races" though:)
      
*player38092
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 16:02
player1445405 écrit le Wed, 20 November 2013 15:51

anyway I'm relieved and I thank you that you don't consider me a racist. I'm ok with fantasy "races" though:)
I debate ideas and I rather tended to see in you a defender of PC correctness (which is the antinomy of racism).
And I don't think I am a troll.
Believe that I am at least as sincerely in search of sound ethics in my life as you do.
I can be sensitive when I percieve that some arguments are founded in trendy moralism - precisely because my deep beliefs reject self-righteousness.

I respect, however, as previously expressed, the limits that one or the other can have on some topics.
Some people will reject SW altogether, because it contains elements linked to occultism and magic effects (for the reason that they belong to real life practices and/or beings, from a judeo-christian perspective).
To each one his own.
      
nathaniel_z
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 16:06
I am by no means threatening anyone's opinion, merely pointing that there are other groups of people referred in SW, and nobody bats an eye. I didn't refer to them as social communities, groups or whatever, I even just said there are other real names, not purely linked to lore.

Also, I didn't say in any way, shape or form that your opinion is racist; you are well entitled to your opinion. I wrote that one can see racism, sexism or whatever-ism in any situation. I don't. And I fail to see how that makes me racist.
      
*player38092
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 16:08
nathaniel_z écrit le Wed, 20 November 2013 16:06

Also, I didn't say in any way, shape or form that your opinion is racist; you are well entitled to your opinion. I wrote that one can see racism, sexism or whatever-ism in any situation. I don't. And I fail to see how that makes me racist.
And you certainly are not, Sir. Smile
You just have made a show of common sense.
      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 17:57
nathaniel_z wrote on Wed, 20 November 2013 16:06


...
Also, I didn't say in any way, shape or form that your opinion is racist; you are well entitled to your opinion. I wrote that one can see racism, sexism or whatever-ism in any situation. I don't. And I fail to see how that makes me racist.


I wrote that to show how easy is to point to someone with the wrong adjectives, as I've to read that I had racists thought even if I didn't know about it... A bad reaction from my part, sorry.


      
*player38092
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 18:04
player1445405 écrit le Wed, 20 November 2013 17:57

I've to read that I had racists thought even if I didn't know about it...
I was just trying to show how far the PC ideology can make debates turn sour.
If one wants to give moralist lessons, one should be carefull not to fall prey of his own system.
As said, I was clear that you have no racist thought.
All the debate is about the OP (who you seem to support) accusing DoW of being racist - as well, presumably, as anyone who does not see any problem playing Gypsies.

BTW, the Gypsies are one of my prefered people in the game, as their power really does make them move around the map from turn to turn.
For the least, the designer honoured their mobility and certainly did not place them under a negative view.
      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 22:55
Just to clarify that I don't support AT ALL the idea that SW is racist. No, I don't think that. SW is a great game, one of my favorites and no racist at all, in any way.
However I'm not at ease (ME) with the Gypsies tokens because it makes ME remember the sad situation some Gypsy communinities are living right now in some European countries. Thanks for your understanding on this point:)
      
*player38092
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 20 November 2013 23:19
Point understood.
Anyway everybody plays as he likes. Smile
      
nathaniel_z
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Thu, 21 November 2013 14:58
Hey no problem mate!

Just out of curiosity, if you had to replace them with a more "fantasy" race, what race would you choose?
      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Thu, 21 November 2013 17:27
nathaniel_z wrote on Thu, 21 November 2013 14:58

Hey no problem mate!

Just out of curiosity, if you had to replace them with a more "fantasy" race, what race would you choose?


Maybe I'd choose "Travellers"
      
nathaniel_z
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Thu, 21 November 2013 17:32
Why not Acrobats? Like the travelling circus?
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Thu, 21 November 2013 18:54
How about Centaurs? They traveled around, didn't they?
      
nathaniel_z
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Thu, 21 November 2013 19:35
Or Harpies, while in greek mythology? They were always on the move!
      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Thu, 21 November 2013 19:59
That's great! I like Harpies very much:) they allow to use the same mechanics and graphics would definitely look great!
I think that Centaurs would deserve their own race tokens Smile and I'd add a special power to deploy faster (ex: minus 1 token on their first 3 conquests) and a bonus for forests:))

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 21 November 2013 20:01]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Thu, 21 November 2013 20:16
player1445405 wrote on Thu, 21 November 2013 22:59

That's great! I like Harpies very much:) they allow to use the same mechanics and graphics would definitely look great!
I think that Centaurs would deserve their own race tokens Smile and I'd add a special power to deploy faster (ex: minus 1 token on their first 3 conquests) and a bonus for forests:))


Sure, that could work. Or maybe the Centaurs have "Mounted" all the time...

As a side note, please take a second to go to the top right corner of the screen and click on your current User Name. Change it to something more memorable so we can keep track of who's saying what. Thanks!
      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Fri, 22 November 2013 00:29
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 21 November 2013 20:16


As a side note, please take a second to go to the top right corner of the screen and click on your current User Name. Change it to something more memorable so we can keep track of who's saying what. Thanks!

done! Thanks for the support!Smile
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Fri, 22 November 2013 00:35
Cohen The Barbarian wrote on Fri, 22 November 2013 03:29

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 21 November 2013 20:16


As a side note, please take a second to go to the top right corner of the screen and click on your current User Name. Change it to something more memorable so we can keep track of who's saying what. Thanks!

done! Thanks for the support!Smile


Perfect! It's great to have new people join the community!! Cool
      
Dan42hitchikers
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Fri, 22 November 2013 00:41
How about nomads?
      
AngryMarine
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Fri, 22 November 2013 11:47
If a new special power, similar to Gypsies' ability, should be introduced to the game, Nomads - would be the perfect name for it. E.g. Nomad Skeletons, Nomad Wizards...
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------
Call a spade a spade and not a bloody shovel.
      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Fri, 22 November 2013 20:02
I'm more interested in the idea of replacing "Gypsies" race name for "Nomads" race name on future reeditions of SW Smile for all the reasons already mentioned on this thread.
A nice special power to go along with it could be "with circus", ...now many possibilities come to mind, -I'd need to think a little before posting 'with circus' special power outcomes Razz
      
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Fri, 22 November 2013 20:59
Cohen The Barbarian wrote on Fri, 22 November 2013 23:02

I'm more interested in the idea of replacing "Gypsies" race name for "Nomads" race name on future reeditions of SW Smile ~Snip~


DoW doesn't really do 'new renditions' of their games. When they need to reprint a game, they tend to leave it all the same. This helps make a consistent game so that anyone playing a Small World game or Ticket to Ride, or Memoir '44 are playing the same game. None of us have to ask, "Oh, which version are you playing with?"

So I wouldn't look to see this change happen in any official capacity. If you wanted to create a sticker to put over the Gypsies you could do that.
      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Tue, 26 November 2013 22:04
I found out that the Nomads idea has been posted by player underflood on May 2009 on this thread: http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=17023&start=0
With the same mechanics that Gypsies race have now... A real pity... As the idea is stolen -muarf muarf- from underflood to make a lame race. Maybe it was so in order to make it fit in an -also lame- expansion as Dames...
Pls DoW guys, give credit to underflood and rename Gypsies race:)
Sorry to insist, in the meantime I'm producing my stickers as suggested:)
Thanks for reading!
      
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 27 November 2013 01:32
Cohen The Barbarian wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 01:04

I found out that the Nomads idea has been posted by player underflood on May 2009 on this thread: http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=17023&start=0
With the same mechanics that Gypsies race have now... A real pity... As the idea is stolen -muarf muarf- from underflood to make a lame race. Maybe it was so in order to make it fit in an -also lame- expansion as Dames...
Pls DoW guys, give credit to underflood and rename Gypsies race:)
Sorry to insist, in the meantime I'm producing my stickers as suggested:)
Thanks for reading!


Why would DoW give credit to underflood for a totally different Race with a completely different name? Here's what he said:

"I have a suggestion for a new power with a variation on the pillaging game mechanic:
Nomad (3)- Each empty region you conquer this turn is worth 1 bonus Victory at turn's end."

That's nothing like the current Gypsies power, so I'm not sure why he would get credit for this. Maybe you can explain.

[Mis à jour le: Wed, 27 November 2013 01:33]

      
Cohen The Barbarian
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 27 November 2013 09:24
Argh you are right!!! I've read it wrong and then flamed about it.. :/ shame on me!!! Soorry
      
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Wed, 27 November 2013 16:52
Cohen The Barbarian wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 12:24

Argh you are right!!! I've read it wrong and then flamed about it.. :/ shame on me!!! Soorry


Cool We all make mistakes! If you do 10 Jumping Jacks and 2.5 push-ups, all will be forgiven and you will be welcome to post on the forums again... Laughing
      
philippos42
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Re:Gypsies - WHY? Sun, 16 February 2014 23:25
Deio wrote on Wed, 10 July 2013 05:14

agrabah écrit le Wed, 10 July 2013 08:58

It'd be like if there was a race called "Frenchies" and they all attacked people with baguettes and wore berets.


Actually I think this would be quite funny ! I have to find a power to go with that race !

I have a friend who calls the Lizardmen "Frogs," does that count?

I was actually more weirded out by fantasy Pygmies. The SW Gypsies are at least sort of based on real Romani stereotypes. The SW Pygmies are implicitly dangerous and inhuman.

But yes, SW has real-world-named Gypsies, Pygmies, White Ladies (change the stress), and Dwarves (Dwarfs). And Lizardmen if you're David Ickes. It threw me for a minute and then I went with it.
      
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