Five Tribes Five Tribes

Forums

Recherche
Forums » Memoir '44 - English » Infantry vs Armor in open
Montrer: Messages du jour 
  
AuteurSujet
tank commander
Senior Member
J'adore les ananas

Pages Perso
Messages: 2068
Enregistré(e) en :
October 2004
Infantry vs Armor in open Mon, 31 October 2005 22:10
Hi all.

Does it bother anyone else that Inf is allowed to advance across clear terrain against armor AND get in the first shot.

I was thinking about some house rule to deal with this and perhaps limit an Inf's movement against armor. Maybe not allowing them to move adjacent to armor if that adjacent hex is clear terrain.

And / Or perhaps allow armor to fire (similar to the Ambush card rule) on Inf that moves within 2 hexes.

Any input would be welcomed.
      
The Old Soldier
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 51
Enregistré(e) en :
March 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Mon, 31 October 2005 22:18
No, it is just the nature of the rules. If you change one, you cause problems with the rest. Note, that the infantry would be hard put to do such a thing. If the tank unit was at full strenght most likely the infantry would set themselves up to be overrun on the opponents turn.

Think of the units as regiments with anti armor weapons dispersed throughout the unit.
      
kweniston
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 48
Enregistré(e) en :
September 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Tue, 01 November 2005 01:00
Clear terrain is not a forest, but it's no desert either. Anyone can sneak up to a tank with a panzerfaust if no infantry support is present. Tanks are known for their shortsightedness, they need eyes around them to deliver the info.

It's a classic mistake to overestimate an armor unit's strength against infantry. Armor is extremely vulnerable to lone units ambushing in the shrubs with a bazooka.
      
*player38092
Senior Member

Messages: 771
Enregistré(e) en :
November 2004
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Tue, 01 November 2005 10:58
Don't forget that Infantry units in M44 may include directly attached AT Guns (e.g. 57mm US or GB, 45 or 57 mm Russian or 50mm German) and Bazookas/Panzerschrecks/Panzerfausts.
Now, M44 has a high level of abstraction, so you often will find game mechanics that don't portray Real Life situations... though reality arguments tend to be sterile, as one can allways imagine a real situation that fits the rule for every real situation that seems to contradict it. Rolling Eyes

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 01 November 2005 10:59]

      
tank commander
Senior Member
J'adore les ananas

Pages Perso
Messages: 2068
Enregistré(e) en :
October 2004
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Tue, 01 November 2005 11:25
No, it is just the nature of the rules. If you change one, you cause problems with the rest.

Perhaps, but I think there is some room for tweaking w/o causing problems.

Note, that the infantry would be hard put to do such a thing.

I do not know about that -- Inf seems to do this on a regular basis.

If the tank unit was at full strenght most likely the infantry would set themselves up to be overrun on the opponents turn.

That could very well be true. But some might consider it a very good trade to seriously damage an armor unit in exchange for an Inf unit.

Clear terrain is not a forest, but it's no desert either.

I understand that, but to move a large unit w/o being detected (in essence) is somewhat hard to believe.

Anyone can sneak up to a tank with a panzerfaust if no infantry support is present. Tanks are known for their shortsightedness, they need eyes around them to deliver the info.

Units do not represent small groups of men. Also, armor units did have their own Inf support w/ their units -- one would have to go down to company level to lack such support.

Don't forget that Infantry units in M44 may include directly attached AT Guns (e.g. 57mm US or GB, 45 or 57 mm Russian or 50mm German) and Bazookas/Panzerschrecks/Panzerfausts.

That is also true -- and why Inf can kill armor. But these are, for the most part towed weapons that need time to deploy properly. Again, I do not have a problem w/ Inf killing armor, just advancing boldly before hand.

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 01 November 2005 11:26]

      
Leo-T
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 30
Enregistré(e) en :
March 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Tue, 01 November 2005 15:05
I really haven't noticed a problem with this situation. Think of the tactical situation in the game in open ground. As an armor commander, why would I let enemy infantry have that opportunity in the first place? In open ground, I generally use the maneuverability of the armor to keep their distance from enemy units and pick them off. The infantry can close one hex and shoot with two dice, while I run around and shoot at them with three. They don't live long. I only go in for close assault against damaged units or with the armoured assault card. I've found very often that the key to this game is patience. Keep your distance and maximize your dice rolls until you've got the cards & position to go in for the kill. If you decide to close with infantry and trade shots, you're giving them much more of a chance to kill the armor (in reality, this is where they would bring their grenades, ATM's, bazookas, panzerfausts, etc. into play).
Just my two cents.
      
Cantata
Senior Member
Victoire à Arnhem

Pages Perso
Messages: 444
Enregistré(e) en :
May 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Tue, 01 November 2005 16:23
Quote:

Units do not represent small groups of men. Also, armor units did have their own Inf support w/ their units -- one would have to go down to company level to lack such support.



This is not necessarily true, the scale of the battle being depicted determines individual unit size. Granted, most of the M44 scenarios depict larger formations, but not all of them. If you kept infantry units with your armor, I would imagine your opponent would be more reluctant to just charge his infantry out at your supported tanks. However, leave those tanks unsopported by infantry and I will also charge out and attack them, especially if I can roll three or more dice in the attack! You put the armor in that situation and I will take advantage. Infantry are slow for the most part, you should be able to keep tanks at long range to deal with them most of the time.

I agree with Leo-T, you must use armor wisely, playing from a distance until an opportunity presents itself... then you move into close combat range and start cleaning house. Tanks are just as powerful at 3 hex range as they are at 1 hex range. so why get them close to anything but a sure kill? Unless I am trying to exploit some tactical weakness in my opponents position, I do not risk armor in close combat unless I know I'm very likely to win the combat and then use armor overrun. If I can't take full advantage, I don't risk it.

There are recorded cases of guys who went right out in the open against armor, with the intent of knocking it out, and they were often successful at it. They used Bazookas, Piats and Panzerfausts, grenades, improvised explosives (molotov cocktails, sticky bombs), and sometimes small arms. The Polish even used a cavalry charge in one instance, although that ended in a massacre.

Rushing a tank on foot may not be the most well thought out action you could take, but then again, many tankers have lost their lives to just such tactics.
      
AnglePark
Senior Member
Cadet

Messages: 134
Enregistré(e) en :
June 2004
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Tue, 01 November 2005 16:46
These kinds of "issues" don't really bother me at all. M44, first and foremost, is a game - with a lot of flavor - not a simulation. And because M44 is not like other wargames I've been able to get a lot of my friends involved - friends who would never play Squad Leader, or even Panzer Leader.

The simulation side of me gets its fix through computer games these days - like Combat Mission - but I'd prefer to play M44 over any other game.

It gets my vote for best WWII game ever, and for the simple fact that it's brought a lot of people into historical wargaming - albeit wargaming light. It's accessible to the masses since it's not complicated, can be played in less than an hour, and it's components are definitely more attractive than any other WWII game ever released.

Tinker away with the rules, though. That's the other nice thing about this system - it's wide open for tinkering, and you need to make it to your liking. The only change we've made involves elite units - they get to ignore the first flag rolled against them. Otherwise, we're happy with it the way it is.
      
yangtze
DoW Content Provider
Major

Pages Perso
Messages: 1842
Enregistré(e) en :
July 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Tue, 01 November 2005 17:11
I used to be a tinkerer with this game, but on VASSAL the official rules are the common tongue and they work fine. My tinkering days are over. I have to say I do think tanks are hugely powerful in open spaces. To prove it, I'll meet you on VASSAL, we'll play Relief of Piper, you charge my tanks in the open, and I'll show you where the iron crosses grow Very Happy
      
Cantata
Senior Member
Victoire à Arnhem

Pages Perso
Messages: 444
Enregistré(e) en :
May 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Tue, 01 November 2005 17:41
Just remember folks, as in real life, Combined Arms will win the battle more often than not. Tanks supported by infantry are a much more dangerous prospect than tanks alone... and that is on any battlefield.

Case in point: Playing Russo-Finnish War just last night, and was able to eliminate the Russian armor early in the game (both units)... by rushing infantry straight at them and rolling the maximum number of attack die in close combat. Only by maximizing my die rolls did I even stand a chance. My opponent made good use of them at the start, eliminating a couple of my units and leaving me little choice. I had to knock them out or get mauled... I opted to knock them out. Yes it was risky, a bad die roll or two and I would have been left exposed with nowhere to hide. However, the Finns proved themselves quite capable of handling lone armor units by swarming them.

Granted, Finnish Ski troops are basically the supermen of this game, what with their high mobility and lack of terrain combat restrictions when they move, they are still only infantry.
      
tank commander
Senior Member
J'adore les ananas

Pages Perso
Messages: 2068
Enregistré(e) en :
October 2004
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Tue, 01 November 2005 22:37
As an armor commander, why would I let enemy infantry have that opportunity in the first place? In open ground, I generally use the maneuverability of the armor to keep their distance from enemy units and pick them off. The infantry can close one hex and shoot with two dice, while I run around and shoot at them with three. They don't live long.

Ok -- so you aim to keep your armor at least 3 hexes away from all enemy Inf units. A good goal, but not always realistic. A lot depends on the setup and force makeup of each scenario. In addition, the lack of cards to move in a section could "strand" your armor and leave them open to two Inf moves in a row.

Also, one cannot discount the playing of one of the special cards where Inf may move two and battle or when facing Elite Inf.

If you decide to close with infantry and trade shots

That is just it -- this happens on occasion and I am willing to deal w/ the risks but it still seems Inf is allowed to be too aggressive against Armor.

There are recorded cases of guys who went right out in the open against armor

No doubt, and I am sure quite a few lost their lives doing it. The Japanese were probably the most likely to do so.

But this type of action was out of the ordinary. Rushing out into the open after tanks was a losing proposition. Most of the hand held AT weapons had considerably shorter range than the MGs the tanks had. When Inf were able to operate from cover and / or concealment AND were undetected, they were then most effective against tanks.

There is a case of an American General attempting to fire a bazooka from a building at a T-34/85 early in the Korean War. Well, just as he aimed out the window, the muzzle of the 85mm tank gun was the last thing he saw. In other words, he lost big time.

I know if Inf are properly trained and equipped to combat armor they can do so FROM prepared positions.

I can imagine -- Inf commander to his Inf unit tucked away in a town hex -- "OK, men, there's some tanks two hexes away -- I say let's leave the town and go out into the open and engage them at one hex range.

It just does not sound right.

Just remember folks, as in real life, Combined Arms will win the battle more often than not. Tanks supported by infantry are a much more dangerous prospect than tanks alone... and that is on any battlefield.

How do you do this in the game? I could move a tank unit out w/ a couple of Inf units alongside it but this really makes no difference. There is no modifier for units of different types in combat together nor would it prevent enemy Inf from charging the tanks.

Let me close by saying, I think this is a fine game. I know it is on a simple level. I have played it as is and like it. However, I think the way Inf vs Armor combat / movement poses a problem (there are a couple of others, but not as bad).

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 01 November 2005 23:06]

      
Chairman7w
Junior Member
Cadet

Pages Perso
Messages: 17
Enregistré(e) en :
August 2004
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Wed, 02 November 2005 03:50
LOL!! Hey Tank Commander, you ask for input, then argue, point-by-point against the replies! Smile ???

Were you just in the mood for an argument, or what? I think it's dangerous to apply too much "reality" to this, and most other board games. Many aspects are abstracted into the game (stated by others already) and accounted for in the game balance.

Tinkering can often lead to more tinkering to adjust for the original tinker, than cause chain reactions, which could eventually lead to the end of the world as we know it. And nobody wants that. Smile
      
The Old Soldier
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 51
Enregistré(e) en :
March 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Wed, 02 November 2005 08:35
Kind of funny if you think about it.

I read the agruements to our suggestions, and frankly they are full of holes and anachronisms. Laughing
      
Drax Kramer
Member
Hauptmann

Pages Perso
Messages: 50
Enregistré(e) en :
August 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Wed, 02 November 2005 14:49
With tanks able to shoot at infantry from three hexes apart, I fail to see how can infantry "rush" accross the open terrain to shoot at tanks with anything but adverse chances.


Drax
      
Leo-T
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 30
Enregistré(e) en :
March 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Wed, 02 November 2005 16:15
Infantry can rush armor - but basically you're gambling that your opponent doesn't have a card to activate them for a turn. This would allow you to close and roll your three dice - terrain not withstanding.
      
Chairman7w
Junior Member
Cadet

Pages Perso
Messages: 17
Enregistré(e) en :
August 2004
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Wed, 02 November 2005 18:23
Clearly you've never been on the receiving end of an assault from those dreaded Finnish Ski Troops. (move 3 AND fight!) Rrrgggghhhh!! (played Suosullami yesterday and those Ski guys are brutal!) Smile

Quote:

"Drax Kramer wrote: With tanks able to shoot at infantry from three hexes apart, I fail to see how can infantry "rush" accross the open terrain to shoot at tanks with anything but adverse chances."
      
tank commander
Senior Member
J'adore les ananas

Pages Perso
Messages: 2068
Enregistré(e) en :
October 2004
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Wed, 02 November 2005 22:57
LOL!! Hey Tank Commander, you ask for input, then argue, point-by-point against the replies! ???

Yes, I did ask for input -- my mistake Laughing

But seriously folks, I am not really looking to argue. I am just adressing some (but not all) the points brought up. Oh, by the way, I am not a lawyer (rules or otherwise).

We could probably have this go back and forth like a tennis ball for a while longer -- probably best to just agree that we disagree.

And please note, I did not wish to dismiss all that everyone posted -- there were valid points made.

As a matter of fact, a friend of mine first brought up the Inf vs Armor issue (thanks friend for getting me into trouble -- wait till I get my hands on him) and after some consideration, I could see his point.

I think it's dangerous to apply too much "reality" to this, and most other board games. Many aspects are abstracted into the game (stated by others already) and accounted for in the game balance.

Well I do not know about dangerous (dangerous is attempting to wargame to much when married) Smile

A detailed designer note section would have been welcomed which could have explained the designer's intent to the various abstractions.

Look guys, I am a bit more jaded than when I started this hobby over 30+ years ago and look at wargames w/ a much more critical eye nowadays. Yes this even includes a basic game like MEMOIR '44.

When I first started playing, I did not even read the designer's notes (if there even were any) and did not question how a game worked. Now, I do examen these things (and often make up player aids -- many times thinking why they did not include such a thing in the first place).

At any rate, I am done w/ this discussion -- I will however try out a couple of rule variations and see how they work out.

Good day gentlemen.
      
kweniston
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 48
Enregistré(e) en :
September 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Thu, 03 November 2005 00:42
tank commander wrote on Wed, 02 November 2005 22:57



I will however try out a couple of rule variations and see how they work out.




Post your thoughts here on how the rule variations worked out for you.
      
Chairman7w
Junior Member
Cadet

Pages Perso
Messages: 17
Enregistré(e) en :
August 2004
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Thu, 03 November 2005 04:59
Quote:

"Well I do not know about dangerous (dangerous is attempting to wargame to much when married)"


Amen, Brother, Amen! Surprised
      
tank commander
Senior Member
J'adore les ananas

Pages Perso
Messages: 2068
Enregistré(e) en :
October 2004
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Thu, 03 November 2005 19:01
Post your thoughts here on how the rule variations worked out for you.

I will do that, sir.

I do wish to say I am sorry if anyone found me to be difficult -- I did not wish to cause anyone grief.

I do thank you for your posts.
      
kweniston
Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 48
Enregistré(e) en :
September 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Fri, 04 November 2005 01:48
tank commander wrote on Thu, 03 November 2005 19:01



I do wish to say I am sorry if anyone found me to be difficult -- I did not wish to cause anyone grief.



No problem, sir. Why have a public forum if people agree with each other Very Happy. Feel free to post again. Be prepared for some "counter-attacks", as you've noticed Smile.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 04 November 2005 01:49]

      
Cantata
Senior Member
Victoire à Arnhem

Pages Perso
Messages: 444
Enregistré(e) en :
May 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Fri, 04 November 2005 16:00
Come on, who doesn't love a good argument now and then, right? We all have our own ideas about things, why should you be any different? No offense taken for my part.
      
tank commander
Senior Member
J'adore les ananas

Pages Perso
Messages: 2068
Enregistré(e) en :
October 2004
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Fri, 04 November 2005 22:25
Come on, who doesn't love a good argument now and then, right?

I totaly disagree. Laughing

I do enjoy reading other's posts here (and on other forums). There are a lot of good ideas and interesting info.
      
yangtze
DoW Content Provider
Major

Pages Perso
Messages: 1842
Enregistré(e) en :
July 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Fri, 04 November 2005 23:37
No there aren't.
      
caroper
Senior Member

Messages: 166
Enregistré(e) en :
April 2004
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Sat, 05 November 2005 00:35
Is this the 5 minuet Argument or the full half Hour?
Laughing
      
yangtze
DoW Content Provider
Major

Pages Perso
Messages: 1842
Enregistré(e) en :
July 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Sat, 05 November 2005 13:00
Sorry, this is contradiction. Argument's in the next thread.
      
Cantata
Senior Member
Victoire à Arnhem

Pages Perso
Messages: 444
Enregistré(e) en :
May 2005
Re:Infantry vs Armor in open Mon, 07 November 2005 18:20
Geez... everyone's a frickin' comedian, eh? Rolling Eyes
      
    
Sujet précédent:Just Posted New Desert Scenario ...
Sujet suivant:Accessing Fan Scenarios
Aller au forum: