Five Tribes Five Tribes

Forums

Recherche
Forums » BattleLore - English » too much luck? or just right?
Montrer: Messages du jour 
  
AuteurSujet
shoya
Junior Member

Messages: 2
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2006
  too much luck? or just right? Mon, 25 December 2006 04:32
Right now, I feel my games are decided by luck a bit too often. I am hoping this is because I barely learnt how to play, so my strategy is lacking.

For experienced players, how often you think your victory or defeat would be reversed if only a couple important dice throws went the other way? If it's like 1 out of 5 games, then I'm not worried. But if it's every other game, then I wonder if anyone tried home rules that make the game less random.

I think luck matters the most when only 1 die is thrown (e.g., green archers on the move), when anything can happen with equal chance. With more dice, the results are a bit more predictable (e.g., 4 dice with bonus strike give a decent confidence of at least 1 hit).
      
Blue Jackal
Junior Member

Messages: 27
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Mon, 25 December 2006 06:05
My current house rules are:

Divide the Command deck into two symmetrical decks, one for each player. (A few cards get left out. One Patrol for each flank, and a Mounted Charge and Battlelore.) This prevents a player from getting two Forwards or two Blue Banners and his opponent getting neither. Likewise, it prevents a player from getting a (disadvantageous) two Red Banners, etc.

Secondly, for dice:

1 = always a hit
2 = bonus strike (if applicable)
3 = flag
4 to 6 = half-a-Lore.

End of turn, you may either draw a card or spend one Lore to draw 2, pick 1.

Use pennies or something to represent a half-a-Lore.

My friends like it. It doesn't totally remove luck, of course, but it does balance it out a bit.
      
Warpstorm
Member

Messages: 40
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Mon, 25 December 2006 14:35
While the dice have not always gone my way, almost all of my losses can be attributed to a bad decision on my part.

More than dice bad card draws can sometimes make for a lopsided game. I don't really mind since the game plays fast and I can whine about how I would have won if I would have drawn even one good card. Laughing
      
Talespinner
DoW Content Provider
Rikugun Taii

Pages Perso
Messages: 119
Enregistré(e) en :
March 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Mon, 25 December 2006 15:26
Luck does seem to be a factor, but my experience has been that it has more to do with Command Cards and (mis)playing them that makes all the difference. Blue Jackals idea has some merit, but is not really needed for my play group, since none of us are very competitive and we all accept that sometimes the other guy will end up with the killer hand. In four games last night I won a game playing the my opening hand only and it was a slaughter. The other three games were nicely balanced (usually it came down to who could kill a straggler first.)

For instance, a lot of people complain that Goblins are useless, they are not in the right situations or with the right command cards. If you can keep Goblins supported (so they become Bold&Frightened) they can more than stand up to normal infantry. Granted they are not the equal of Dwarves, but the added speed makes them great for quick assaults, you just need lots of cards that say "move 3 units."

It is not necessarily the dice rolls that make the game a win or loss, but it is making the best use of the cards you have to increase the dice you are rolling. Rolls tend to average out over time, you need to make sure you are rolling more than your opponent and victory will (usually) be yours.
      
warwell
Junior Member
Second Lieutenant

Messages: 23
Enregistré(e) en :
June 2004
Re:too much luck? or just right? Mon, 25 December 2006 15:35
For me, the luck seems to even out. I'll have a run of bad dice or cards, but then I get a good run or vice versa. My regular gaming partner and I are fairly evenly matched. Often, our games come down to who makes a mistake.
      
shoya
Junior Member

Messages: 2
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Tue, 26 December 2006 04:02
Thanks for the replies!

So command cards are more "lucky" than dice.. I'll try the different home rules sometime.

Would be absolutely great if Richard Borg looked into designing some (optional?) rule modifications or new cards, etc. in an expansion, for people who like to reduce the random factor.

But the more immediate problem.. gotta persuade my friends to play the game with me! ^^
      
maxixe
Junior Member
Cadet

Pages Perso
Messages: 13
Enregistré(e) en :
September 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Tue, 26 December 2006 06:42
Blue Jackal wrote on Mon, 25 December 2006 13:05

Divide the Command deck into two symmetrical decks, one for each player. (A few cards get left out. One Patrol for each flank, and a Mounted Charge and Battlelore.) This prevents a player from getting two Forwards or two Blue Banners and his opponent getting neither. Likewise, it prevents a player from getting a (disadvantageous) two Red Banners, etc.



I like this idea alot! However, this would mean we don't get nice cards like BattleLore.

Lucky for those with two sets, you can put one BattleLore in each deck! ^O^

edit: Can/Will Days of Wonder sell us separate Command Decks?

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 26 December 2006 06:43]

      
andrewgr
Junior Member

Messages: 28
Enregistré(e) en :
September 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Tue, 26 December 2006 09:20
With a common deck, if I have a hand full of cards that all allow me to move on my left flank, then that greatly increases the probability that my opponent has at least some cards that allow him to move on his right flank. Since my left flank = his right flank, this means I shouldn't be able to use my cards to attack him turn after turn without him being able to respond.

With separate decks, there is no such balancing mechanism.

Knowing the distribution of cards in the deck, you can infer some things about your opponent's likely hand based on what you see in your hand and what you've seen in the discard pile. This element of skill is removed (or at least greatly diminished) if you have separate decks.

I can understand the impulse to make Battlelore into something that it isn't (namely, a game with a higher skill to luck ratio): after all, it's fast, fun, elegant, and appears like it's going to be well supported. That said, I'm happy with the niche Battlelore fills in my game library; if I want to play a game with less luck, I have lots and lots of options that I'm perfectly happy with.
      
maxixe
Junior Member
Cadet

Pages Perso
Messages: 13
Enregistré(e) en :
September 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Tue, 26 December 2006 09:54
andrewgr wrote on Tue, 26 December 2006 16:20

With a common deck, if I have a hand full of cards that all allow me to move on my left flank, then that greatly increases the probability that my opponent has at least some cards that allow him to move on his right flank. Since my left flank = his right flank, this means I shouldn't be able to use my cards to attack him turn after turn without him being able to respond.



Ohhh... this is insightful~ Haven't thought of that! Razz

However, upon pondering this for a while, I do have two point of views to add:

1. In all the games I have played so far, it always seem to have instances where one player is able to beat down on one section more than the other can coup with. Although in theory, I get more left section cards = you get more right section cards sounds good, the non-section cards (i.e. blue banners, foot onslaught, BattleLore, mounted charge, etc.) can compensate for it.

2. If my left = your right = we fight on one flank, that means I have less of right flank cards, and you have less of left flank cards. That means one flank of the board will be neglected. In most adventures, they are asymmetrical. The inability to order units on a more advantaged flank could unbalance the game, couldn't it? I.e. both of us have strong left flanks. If you get left section cards, it means I will get less left section cards. That means you can order those mean cavalries/heavy infantries more often whilst mine are trapped.

Having a dedicated Command Deck, however, means that the unbalanced sides of asymmetric scenarios get to be played with equal chance, doesn't it?

Possible?
      
Johnny Awesome
Junior Member

Pages Perso
Messages: 28
Enregistré(e) en :
October 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Wed, 27 December 2006 16:55
I find that luck is a factor sometimes, but generally better play will win out in the end. If I were to quantify it, I'd say that a good player playing a bad player will win 80% of the time. In a hardcore skill game like Chess that would be more like 100% and totally luck oriented games would be 50/50. So take that for what it's worth. Luck matters, but only just enough to make the game fun IMO.

How to reduce randomness? I don't like some of the weird messing that people do with the Command deck or with the replacing the actual dice (because the dice are great and people love the colours IMO). Here are my suggestions:

1. Instead of 4,5,6 Command cards. Play with 6, 8, 10 Command cards. This will almost always give you command options.

2. Roll twice as many dice and then alternate elminating dice with your opponent until the correct number of dice are left. ie. Archers roll 4 dice. Then you take a die of your choice off and then your opponent does the same, leaving you with 2 dice.

3. Give creatures 3 or 4 hit points by using level tokens and ignore the critical rules.
      
Gilberreke
Member

Messages: 34
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Wed, 27 December 2006 18:22
If you want to reduce the luck factor, try this:

Whenever lore is rolled you can choose to pay 1 lore and reroll this dice.

So, for example: I attack a red unit and roll blue banner and lore, I can pay 1 lore and reroll this die. It now says red banner, I score a hit.
      
Blue Jackal
Junior Member

Messages: 27
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Wed, 27 December 2006 20:03
andrewgr wrote on Tue, 26 December 2006 03:20

With a common deck, if I have a hand full of cards that all allow me to move on my left flank, then that greatly increases the probability that my opponent has at least some cards that allow him to move on his right flank. Since my left flank = his right flank, this means I shouldn't be able to use my cards to attack him turn after turn without him being able to respond.

With separate decks, there is no such balancing mechanism.

Knowing the distribution of cards in the deck, you can infer some things about your opponent's likely hand based on what you see in your hand and what you've seen in the discard pile. This element of skill is removed (or at least greatly diminished) if you have separate decks.

I can understand the impulse to make Battlelore into something that it isn't (namely, a game with a higher skill to luck ratio): after all, it's fast, fun, elegant, and appears like it's going to be well supported. That said, I'm happy with the niche Battlelore fills in my game library; if I want to play a game with less luck, I have lots and lots of options that I'm perfectly happy with.



I don't think the probability increase is all that great, since you've got about 50 cards in the deck, though it does help.

But with two decks it does reduce extremes, and I can't help but feel that without the five cards (patrols, Battlelore, Mounted Charge), you're more likely to get 'powerful' (or flexible) cards, such as Banners, Forward, Surround, etc. At least when I play, that's what it feels like.

And seeing as how Battlelore is my only dedicated two player game, I don't have lots of choices. Wink If I need to give a new player an edge, I give them free creatures!
      
foolinjected
Junior Member

Messages: 10
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Wed, 27 December 2006 20:23
The luck is fine. This is a lite wargame. It is nowhere as complex as Warhammer fantasy. I welcome the change. There is HUGE potential with this game.
      
Eric the Red
Junior Member
Cadet

Messages: 28
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Wed, 27 December 2006 23:41
I like the game the way it is. The luck factor seems fine as it is, and the command system adds more than it detracts IMO.

That said, BL lends itself to easy mods to take the luck of the cards out. Simply don't play with the command deck. Each turn you simply get to order two units (or some number).

Or that can be varied. Use a d6, on a 1 you get to order 1 unit, on a 2-5 two units, on a 6 you get to order 3 units.

Or start with a number of chits, say 5; you must spend a chit to order a unit. At the end of each turn you gain a chit, or two, or whatever. Save them up (put a max of say 8 on how many you can hold), to use all at once, or use them slowly to move up and fight a bit, or save some and spend some.

The game seems very 'modular,' easy to tweak one aspect (terrain, command, lore, specific unit abilites, etc) without breaking the whole thing.
      
Echowing
Junior Member

Messages: 5
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2007
Re:too much luck? or just right? Fri, 05 January 2007 04:13
I only just started playing- made it through the first two scenarios today. I bought the game to gateway my 11 year old into wargaming and for that purpose it excels. The luck is a great way to inject fun for a player that is less experienced. It also diffuses the negative feeling of being beaten (this is huge for a preteen- some of you know what I'm talking about here).

With that said, wanting to work through the rules, my gaming friend and I (who are evenly matched) had the following experience with the game today: In the first scenario I played the French. I had two mounted charge cards with the first draw of 4 to start the game. Within the first two turns of the game, I had completely obliterated two of his archer units that were on either flank. Even though this exposed my chargers, I couldn't resist taking advantage of the unprotected archers on his flanks. Halfway to winning, and with my chargers harassing him from behind, it wasn't long before I got my next to standards to win. 4-0. Second game, we were more dug in, using the hills and such. We were 1-1 from plinking away from archers and I got the Battlelore card (first time i had seen it). I decided to make good use of it while i still had a nice assortments of colored banners. I rolled well and got to activate several units. My battle rolls that turn were horrible, though, and his battlebacks were very lucky. A card I thought was going to give me an advantage, turned out to put me at a disadvantage and I was overextended. I was on my heels but wouldn't you know it, within 5 turns of each other, I pulled that battlelore card twice more- even with the reshuffles. This really helped me to reorganize my support and then take the game. I'm sure my friend felt like luck had worked against him- getting that battlelore card three times in a game was a bit lucky for me.
I like the mechanic of reshuffling the deck tho- this is very good for dealing with "card counters." Perhaps as a house rule, you can only get to use the battlelore card once. After that, if it comes up again, show your opponent, draw a new card, discard the battlelore card, and reshuffle the deck. Of course, statistically speaking, what we encountered should probably be quite rare.
      
BeerNbabes
Member

Messages: 34
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Fri, 05 January 2007 04:59
Echowing wrote on Thu, 04 January 2007 22:13

I like the mechanic of reshuffling the deck tho- this is very good for dealing with "card counters." Perhaps as a house rule, you can only get to use the battlelore card once. After that, if it comes up again, show your opponent, draw a new card, discard the battlelore card, and reshuffle the deck. Of course, statistically speaking, what we encountered should probably be quite rare.


I disagree, having the ability play powerful cards such as Battlelore more than once make the battles more exciting. There is nothing like laying down battlelore, dominating your opponent, overextending yourself, then having him a card such as darken the sky and changing the tide his way. Then as your on your heels getting battlelore again or another powerful card and pulling out an exciting victory.
If you play smart you will win most games. You won't win them all though. Just like in real war, even the best field commanders make mistakes and lose a battle or two. These "powerful cards" simulate the ebb and flow, the fluidity of battle.

[Mis à jour le: Fri, 05 January 2007 05:08]

      
ntaatgen
Member

Messages: 52
Enregistré(e) en :
February 2005
Re:too much luck? or just right? Fri, 05 January 2007 05:57
I don't think the Battlelore is overly powerful. Mounted charge also gives you the +1d, and the number of ordered units does not rely on the dice. The downside is that you can ony use cavalry, but most of the time they are perfectly suitable for a surprise attack. With Battlelore you sometimes have to scramble to find the right units to fit the dice roll.
      
yangtze
DoW Content Provider
Major

Pages Perso
Messages: 1842
Enregistré(e) en :
July 2005
Re:too much luck? or just right? Fri, 05 January 2007 10:57
I think the Lore system is a good 'luck balancing' mechanism - you miss the target, but you get Lore towards your next lightning bolt. Nice.
      
servando
Member

Messages: 57
Enregistré(e) en :
June 2006
Re:too much luck? or just right? Fri, 05 January 2007 13:17
ntaatgen wrote on Fri, 05 January 2007 05:57

I don't think the Battlelore is overly powerful. Mounted charge also gives you the +1d, and the number of ordered units does not rely on the dice. The downside is that you can ony use cavalry, but most of the time they are perfectly suitable for a surprise attack. With Battlelore you sometimes have to scramble to find the right units to fit the dice roll.

I feel the same about the Battlelore card, I don't like it, I prefer an advance on one section or an attack. But I think that the powerful of the card is that you reshuffles both decks. And if the powerful lore cards have been played or a "dispel lore" and you think that you need it, your best chance is to play it and draw Lore Cards.
      
Echowing
Junior Member

Messages: 5
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2007
Re:too much luck? or just right? Sun, 07 January 2007 02:37
BeerNbabes wrote on Thu, 04 January 2007 22:59

These "powerful cards" simulate the ebb and flow, the fluidity of battle.


I agree: pulling this command card (Battlelore) adds to the excitement. Randomness like this is one reason many (including myself) like to play chess with Battlechess cards and other randomizers. I just had stated that pulling the card three times within a half dozen turns was more than exciting- it was obscene. My suggestion of a house rule was to not disallow the card, but to try to remove the possibility of drawing it multiple times in a short number of turns (even though this should be an unlikely event). It was an exciting way for me to win the game but from my opponent's standpoint it was probably a very frustrating way to lose.
      
Bigblue
Member

Messages: 47
Enregistré(e) en :
January 2007
Re:too much luck? or just right? Tue, 09 January 2007 00:33
Gilberreke wrote on Wed, 27 December 2006 12:22

If you want to reduce the luck factor, try this:

Whenever lore is rolled you can choose to pay 1 lore and reroll this dice.

So, for example: I attack a red unit and roll blue banner and lore, I can pay 1 lore and reroll this die. It now says red banner, I score a hit.


It seems a lot of people are looking to change a great game with house rules. To each their own. The above example is one of the best I've seen. It's simple and effective. If the creator of BL ever sanctions any optional rules I am sure that he would use this one.
      
    
Sujet précédent:How to use Lore cards
Sujet suivant:Reference Sheet
Aller au forum: