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Dietrich von Kleist
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to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 11 October 2012 13:06
We all experience every now and then that winning or losing a game of memoir44 can be caused by having either extreme luck or extreme bad luck in the way the cards were dealt. We all know the frustrations this can bring, even if you have won in a way that was ridiculously easy. Crying or Very Sad

Wouldn't it be nice if, after battle when the statistics show, there would be a symbol or phrase that shows that a player was extremely lucky or unlucky? Just to ease the frustrations.

Maybe the system could calculate if good or bad luck played a great part in you victory or defeat?
For example: if you have armour and you got both armour assault cards. This could result in a +1 score on the lucky scale. If you got the same cards without having armour this could result in -1.
The same for artillery. If at a certain moment you only have sector cards for a sector you don't have any units in. And so on.

At the end of the game these results could be added and if the total is above a certain level the report could state that your victory or defeat was probably caused by good or bad luck.

So when you just have humiliated a friend you can always refer to the fact that you really got lucky this time or that he only had bad luck. Smile
      
Flemish_Havy
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Sun, 14 October 2012 13:46
Will be a mission impossible i think ! Rolling Eyes

It all depends WHEN you get the good dice and when you get the good cards.

You could get very good cards to start with, but to far off not being able to use them very effective.

For dice you could miss alot but when you score lots off hits at the moments it counts, you are lucky, but it wont show up in the statestics !

You could have extreme good cards, getting a higher grade for those but having no hits at all when playing them so then your luck factor goes down, averaging it out.

Very difficult stuff to calaculate and sorry to say, i d rather have the DoW team devote its time to get us the new goodies from the EP in the Editor ! Cool
      
Phread
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Sun, 14 October 2012 23:38
A simple analysis would show whether a side had good or bad dice and cards.

Dice - were the rolls significantly better or worse than average?
An example: I've played when I've rolled 16% infantry rolls while my opponent has rolled 50%.

Cards - by now DoW have the statistics about the number of shots fired per side per turn per battle. This could be the basis for comparision. It would be clear when a side has fired many more or many less shots than the statistical average. To me this would be an indicator of good or bad cards.

DoW have statistics from many, many, games played. To incorporate these into the scoring algorithm should be trivial and not hard to display either.
      
Quit2
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Sun, 14 October 2012 23:57
I don't completely agree with the reasoning that number of shots fired is a good indicator of card quality. It's by using good cards to their full potential that you get alot of shots fired.
You can use good cards poorly and get less shots fired than your opponent with his mediocre cards.
      
Phread
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 00:15
Quit2 wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 10:57

I don't completely agree with the reasoning that number of shots fired is a good indicator of card quality. It's by using good cards to their full potential that you get alot of shots fired.
You can use good cards poorly and get less shots fired than your opponent with his mediocre cards.


That said, comparing the number of shots fired against the average is an easily calculated measure of the quality of the cards played.

Sure a good player will probably get more shots fired than a poorer player, but a good player with poor cards won't fire as many shots as the same good player with better cards.

I was simply giving an easy measure of dice and card quality that could (imho should) be incorporated into the scoring.
      
Quit2
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 00:41
I know what you were trying to do, and it is indeed a very good basic idea. Better than nothing ... but with still room for improvement.
      
david5272
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 17:24
my thinking...."if you belly ache about the dice or cards, why bother playing the game?"

      
Artimon
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 17:59
I agree with david5272, if you don't support the fact luck is FULL PART of this game (with the "aleas" linked), just change of game.

But, to come back to the beginning of this thread, Phread tries to define a simple way to indicate if we have beneficiated or not of a good luck during the game.

To be honest, everyone who has the experience of the game can easily admit if he was lucky or not during a match. I'm fear than all the indicators you can imagine won't avoid the unfair players who are not recognizing if they were more lucky or not than the other player.
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 18:50
david5272 wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 17:24

my thinking...."if you belly ache about the dice or cards, why bother playing the game?"





... or 'if your head aches about an innocent joke about US soldiers raising a flag, why bother reading the blog?" Rolling Eyes

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 15 October 2012 18:53]

      
stevens
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 19:25
Artimon wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 11:59

I'm fear than all the indicators you can imagine won't avoid the unfair players who are not recognizing if they were more lucky or not than the other player.



I don't think of myself as an UNFAIR player and actually I am one of the luckiest guys in the world. If not I wouldn't have the chance to play this great game with so many NICE opponents. Smile

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 15 October 2012 19:25]

      
Artimon
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 20:32
stevens écrit le Mon, 15 October 2012 19:25

Artimon wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 11:59

I'm fear than all the indicators you can imagine won't avoid the unfair players who are not recognizing if they were more lucky or not than the other player.



I don't think of myself as an UNFAIR player and actually I am one of the luckiest guys in the world. If not I wouldn't have the chance to play this great game with so many NICE opponents. Smile



Stevens, as I said, you cannot be unfair as you perfectly know you are a lucky guy Razz Very Happy Laughing Laughing
      
david5272
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 20:58
Dietrich von Kleist you are an idiot!
      
Jeronimon
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 21:04
I would like it very much if you keep your personal stuff of the forum.

Maybe PM would be a better idea?
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 21:58
david5272 wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 20:58

Dietrich von Kleist you are an idiot!



Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad
      
Quit2
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 22:09
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 21:58

david5272 wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 20:58

Dietrich von Kleist you are an idiot!



Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad

don't come complaining now ... I would have thought you'd have learned about this kind of posts ...
      
clorofila
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 22:27
Luck is part of the game. It is in the dice, it is in the cards - it's everywhere, in short! david5272 has it right, although this is an old issue: if you can't cope with bad luck, this is not the game for you. Stick around if you want to, but bitter episodes will keep coming; ranting comments and impolite remarks will keep be written in the chat box, to your opponent's misfortune (and, again, it's unbelievable to me as there is a reasonable number of players with thousands of games under the belt, who become despicable beings when things don't go their way).

The only comfort I think any player should get is from his opponent, 1) if he agrees that luck played a decisive role, 2) if comforting his fellow player even crosses his mind, and 3) if he is nice and humble enough to do it. I'd say 3-5% of this community is able to do it, in fairness; the others are just automates, in my regard.

Also, if DoW won't even fix bugs reported more than 1 year ago, I'd say it would be very ineffective to waste time developing an automatic comforting system of any sort.
      
Nygaard
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 22:46
david5272 wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 20:58

Dietrich von Kleist you are an idiot!



That diagnosis usually require a little more information than a few posts in an online discussion.

Perhaps - what you meant to say was: "I don't agree with your statements but I'm not able to come up with a clever retort just now."


PS: I actually agree with YOUR statement, but I'd hesitate to call you a genius based just on that.

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 15 October 2012 22:48]

      
van Voort
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 22:49
Gentlemen please

No fighting in the War Room
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Mon, 15 October 2012 23:00
I totally agree that in memoir 44 luck is a very important element. And that is often not so bad. How other can we win battles were the odds are extremely against us.

Recently I played a friend who is higher in rank, numbers of played games and experience. I won a battle because luck choose my side in a shameless way. I was a little ashamed to have won in this way. I don't believe he was having a big problem with it but I still wanted to comfort him without sounding patronizing. Therefore I thought a system (like the thumbs up or down) could be helpful.

In another thread we have already written about players who quit in the middle of a game or refuse a rematch. Of course they should not do that but I think that most of the time having very bad luck can be the reason of this sentiment an behavior. So a system like this might be helpful I think. "Have fun", remember?

I really appreciate to read constructive reactions of players who are trying to think about this and add there ideas to the subject. I prefer these positive reactions more than others.

My excuses if sometimes I react in a non-gentleman way.
      
trentdep
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Tue, 16 October 2012 07:28
Not that David or Dietrich need anyone watching their backs, but it seems as if there is a little confusion ...

I *think* Dietrich was referring to David's comments/ ideas from another thread ( That whole Iowa Jima flag thing )... Suggesting that David should probably just avoid the Blog because he took offense in that other thread, seems a bit - presumptuous perhaps?...

Anytime there are emotions brought over from other threads, one is promoting a level of confusion, as well as perhaps limiting the exchange of ideas... If you ~ Kick My Arse ~ on some other topic, fine - but that shouldn't carry over to other threads...

Ideally, our valuation of, and reply to - any given post should be weighted against our own thoughts specific to that topic, not upon how we might feel about a specific poster...

David's ~ idiot ~ reply seems out of place and a little rude, but - when you consider it was probably a shortened version of what I just said, maybe not so much?...
      
sdnative
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Tue, 16 October 2012 16:08
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 12:58

david5272 wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 20:58

Dietrich von Kleist you are an idiot!



Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad Crying or Very Sad


Dietrich you have to admit you try to push peoples buttons to get a response.
Confused
      
eric
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Tue, 16 October 2012 16:36
Please try and keep this forum as civil as can be and leave out any personal attack. We'll all be better for it.

Thank you for your understanding.
eric

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 16 October 2012 16:36]

      
sdnative
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Tue, 16 October 2012 16:42
van Voort wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 13:49

Gentlemen please

No fighting in the War Room


Wasnt that quote from the movie Dr. Strangelove? What a great film. Laughing Laughing
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Tue, 16 October 2012 18:40
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 18:50

david5272 wrote on Mon, 15 October 2012 17:24

my thinking...."if you belly ache about the dice or cards, why bother playing the game?"





... or 'if your head aches about an innocent joke about US soldiers raising a flag, why bother reading the blog?" Rolling Eyes

Laughing
      
trentdep
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Tue, 16 October 2012 22:47
No wait - nobody said anything about not getting personal - just be sure to leave it within the deserving thread, and not *start* w/ disdain on an unrelated thread...
Smug
      
clorofila
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 04:55
After having played with that fellow david5272, having been called 'clown' and having endured a game where he did nothing but to move forward his suicidal units because "he hated the map", I am really, really sorry that I had agreed with such a character.
There, rant off Evil or Very Mad
      
rasmussen81
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 05:17
Like Eric said, let's not make this personal...and we don't need to call someone out if they played a battle in a way that frustrated us. Just add the person to your Ignore list and move one.

Publicly listing things we don't like about someone is not going to help build this community stronger or more open. Let's avoid doing that, please. Confused
      
clorofila
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 05:43
You are absolutely, 100%, couldn't-agree-more-with-you correct, Jesse... and still, how can I avoid it?...
      
rasmussen81
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 06:03
clorofila wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 07:43

You are absolutely, 100%, couldn't-agree-more-with-you correct, Jesse... and still, how can I avoid it?...


Smile A few strategies that I've used:

1) Rant to my wife. She's a safe person to complain to and will usually sympathise with me.

2) Send a private message to the person telling them how it made me feel. I've only used this one in extreme cases where I felt personally attacked or offended.

3) Rant to other game friends. This could be a private message to other trusted friends here online or FTF game friends.

4) Take a deep breath, remember that the actions of others (in this kind of situation) can only affect me if I let them, and by adding the person to my Ignore list I won't have to worry about them in the future.

Ideally there wouldn't ever be people who bother us or frustrate us...but that's not the world we live in. Very Happy

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 18 October 2012 06:52]

      
Jeronimon
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 08:29
I would like to amend to Rasmussens statement: find people you like to play with to let of steam. Everybody knows some players that will (almost) always give them a nice experience. Wink

I would not rant to the wife too much though, my strategy is is to tell my girlfriend I love her and the world is full of morons. If you can manage the I love her without the morons it usually has an even better effect. Smile
      
rasmussen81
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 08:39
Jeronimon wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 10:29

I would like to amend to Rasmussens statement: find people you like to play with to let of steam. Everybody knows some players that will (almost) always give them a nice experience. Wink

I would not rant to the wife too much though, my strategy is is to tell my girlfriend I love her and the world is full of morons. If you can manage the I love her without the morons it usually has an even better effect. Smile


Wise words from a clearly wise man. I'll add those strategies to my tool bag! Very Happy
      
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 11:20
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 06:03

clorofila wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 07:43

You are absolutely, 100%, couldn't-agree-more-with-you correct, Jesse... and still, how can I avoid it?...


Smile A few strategies that I've used:

1) Rant to my wife. She's a safe person to complain to and will usually sympathise with me.
(snip)


You're lucky... my girlfriend usually assumes it's my fault apriori...
      
Quit2
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 11:49
When I was about to get married, I discussed the "house rules" of our (then future) family with my wife.

This is the list of rules I came up with:
1) I am right.
2) I am always right
3) Even when I am wrong, there is always some way to look at the matter in which I would still be right.
4) "Games" are the most important aspect in our lives.
5) Playing games is the most important activity in our family.

My wife agreed ... to let me believe those are our house rules.
Very Happy
I have a smart wife.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 12:49
Quit2 wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 13:49

When I was about to get married, I discussed the "house rules" of our (then future) family with my wife.

This is the list of rules I came up with:
1) I am right.
2) I am always right
3) Even when I am wrong, there is always some way to look at the matter in which I would still be right.
4) "Games" are the most important aspect in our lives.
5) Playing games is the most important activity in our family.

My wife agreed ... to let me believe those are our house rules.
Very Happy
I have a smart wife.


Our wives must know each other!!! Laughing Laughing
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 12:55
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 12:49

Quit2 wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 13:49

When I was about to get married, I discussed the "house rules" of our (then future) family with my wife.

This is the list of rules I came up with:
1) I am right.
2) I am always right
3) Even when I am wrong, there is always some way to look at the matter in which I would still be right.
4) "Games" are the most important aspect in our lives.
5) Playing games is the most important activity in our family.

My wife agreed ... to let me believe those are our house rules.
Very Happy
I have a smart wife.


Our wives must know each other!!! Laughing Laughing



I was thinking exactly the same thing! Laughing Laughing Laughing

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/behindeverygreatman.jpg
      
clorofila
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 13:48
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 05:03

clorofila wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 07:43

You are absolutely, 100%, couldn't-agree-more-with-you correct, Jesse... and still, how can I avoid it?...


Smile A few strategies that I've used:

1) Rant to my wife. She's a safe person to complain to and will usually sympathise with me.

2) Send a private message to the person telling them how it made me feel. I've only used this one in extreme cases where I felt personally attacked or offended.

3) Rant to other game friends. This could be a private message to other trusted friends here online or FTF game friends.

4) Take a deep breath, remember that the actions of others (in this kind of situation) can only affect me if I let them, and by adding the person to my Ignore list I won't have to worry about them in the future.

Ideally there wouldn't ever be people who bother us or frustrate us...but that's not the world we live in. Very Happy


Oh, I was not talking in general, but regarding this very particular case and the «my thinking...."if you belly ache about the dice or cards, why bother playing the game?"», which makes very little sense to me now, to say the least.

Also, why venting to my wife, risking the fragile household sanity, if one can jump on Dietrich's topic Razz
Anyway, the issue is over for me now and I will give my best not to repeat this mistake in the future. My apologies.
      
sdnative
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 15:54
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 03:55

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 12:49

Quit2 wrote on Thu, 18 October 2012 13:49

When I was about to get married, I discussed the "house rules" of our (then future) family with my wife.

This is the list of rules I came up with:
1) I am right.
2) I am always right
3) Even when I am wrong, there is always some way to look at the matter in which I would still be right.
4) "Games" are the most important aspect in our lives.
5) Playing games is the most important activity in our family.

My wife agreed ... to let me believe those are our house rules.
Very Happy
I have a smart wife.


Our wives must know each other!!! Laughing Laughing



I was thinking exactly the same thing! Laughing Laughing Laughing

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/behindeverygreatman.jpg


Well I don't know about you guys but I am the "BOSS" of the family and my wife gave me permission to say so!

Smile Cool
      
Jeronimon
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Thu, 18 October 2012 20:59
My girlfriend just said she loves me and you are all morons. Wink







She loves me, sigh http://themepark.nl/ubb/images/icons/default/dreaming.gif
      
crroberts70
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Fri, 19 October 2012 06:38
Just to point out something slightly significant -

about 10 posts up, a DOW crew member weighed in on the Memoir '44 Online Forum, which I have not seen in many moons.

He has not posted on the Memoir '44 Online forums since April 2012, and that was on the French forum.

And this was not the most heated thread that I have seen here...

Could it be? DOW is once again taking an interest in Memoir '44 Online?
      
Phread
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Re:to comfort unlucky bastards Sun, 21 October 2012 00:55
Just to demonstrate my lack of luck with the dice,

I played an SFTF scenario yesterday where I won with a hit rate of 26% Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation

My opponent and I both fired 62 shots, his hit rate (if I recall correctly) was 36%.
I left a lot of injured and damaged units on the field of battle.

My final medal was eliminating an amour unit - which had its retreat blocked - with 2 flags. That summed up the battle as I'd rolled more flags than hits in the battle. 8 infantry hits, 8 armour hits for 5 medals, from 62 shots Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation

A minor test for you the reader, how did I get 5 medals, and no I did not take any objectives. Question Question Question
      
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