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stevens
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Re:Random ? Really ? Mon, 18 February 2013 16:44
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 18 February 2013 08:09



Once again, I would argue that there is no video game out there that modifies your chances based on your skill level to even things out. Memoir '44 Online is no exception.


Then you have not heard about the NAZI GAME LEVELER! Rolling Eyes Cool Laughing

http://cdn.daysofwonder.com/uploads/userpages/320854/_6066_thumb.jpg

      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:Random ? Really ? Mon, 18 February 2013 17:09
stevens wrote on Mon, 18 February 2013 16:44

rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 18 February 2013 08:09



Once again, I would argue that there is no video game out there that modifies your chances based on your skill level to even things out. Memoir '44 Online is no exception.


Then you have not heard about the NAZI GAME LEVELER! Rolling Eyes Cool Laughing

http://cdn.daysofwonder.com/uploads/userpages/320854/_6066_thumb.jpg





Laughing Laughing Laughing
      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Mon, 18 February 2013 18:14
Ras...

Agreed - If one enters the conversation being of the opinion that dice and cards would never, ever be manipulated - for any reason, then we are indeed talking apples to oranges. As I've stated - I'm just not of that opinion.

" Again, I don't think there is a single video game that manipulates your chances of hitting...but the actual randomizer is left alone! "

It may or it may not be - I'm not sure that either of us are in a position to know, and - well, read above and sub "randomizer" for "dice and cards"...


Nyga ...

"...if you think DOW would spend time developing..."

I don't think this would be a matter of developing anything really. I'm assuming that DOW hired reasonably talented programmers - assuming that they had experience in random generators, it may not be a stretch to further assume that they would just incorporate ( let's call them ~ Interrupts ~ ) into the code as a matter of course.

There isn't really a need to define why a system might be hacked. I merely note that it is a business venture and it would never make sense to not maintain control of it ( even lacking any specific threat scenario ).


Diet ...

OK - Better !

      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Mon, 18 February 2013 19:37
Quit2 wrote on Mon, 18 February 2013 05:27

Trent,

About the sequence "infantry assault" + "Assault centre" in this scenario:
If the allied player has these two cards, you should almost always see them on his first two turns (with maybe a few exceptions).
So when an opponent has these, you will always know, contrary to certain other cards like counter attack and attack left for example.
So while that combination has the same occurrence, it will seem much less current because you will not always know.
This might give you a false image of stacked cards.

About card quality advantage to one or another player:
You did not have bad cards that game. You had two DFHQ and one recon en force. Those are really not bad cards for the axis troops in this scenario. Granted, the allied cards were extremely good for a strong opening in this scenario, so you might not have noticed how good your own cards were.
This might have given you even more of a false image of stacked cards.

About dice quality.
If I remember correctly, the dice on infantry were about the same, that is around 50 percent. Your dice were slightly better, but that is normal since you got in some hits from flags. So normal results against infantry. As for my results against your artillery: I scored 2 hits with 4 dice. That is better than the average, but on such a small sample (4 dice), it is perfectly reasonable to have such a variation on the average. The chances to get 2 hits with 4 dice are probably bigger than you realise.

So, according to me, there was nothing out of the ordinary during our game. I was just lucky to start the game with 3 excellent cards (as did you) and I was so lucky to kill your artillery with only 4 dice. Neither of which is so unlikely that it should set of alarms.



This really wasn't about a specific game's breakdown, but more of a general sense developed over something short of 1k games. With that said ...

Specific to Cards :

Agreed - I had very good cards for this game ( although I think this would be a difficult scenario for the Axis assuming that their Center Arty unit was gone @ turn 2 - even if one could hand pick cards ).

I think the odds of the Allied player holding a Center Assault and an Infantry Assault at the start of the game are reasonable... Check my math, but there are 2 of each in a 60 card deck, and the Allied player is pulling six cards. Assuming that we strike out our first four cards, our odds on pull 5 have gotten better, and are down to 4:56. Assuming we got one that time, we are now looking at 2:55 ( we dropped one possibility because it would give us a match, rather than one of each ). So .0714 x .0363, or .0025, or 2.5%.

Not terrible, but the odds of that happening to the same player's opponent on consecutive games?... Roughly .00000625, or essentially 0%.

Sure - the odds would be the same for any combination that involved cards that appear twice within the deck, assuming a six card hand, but the fact is that this is probably the single most advantageous combination possible for the Allies, in this scenario.

Regarding dice...

The probability of getting two *grenades* ( the only symbol that would be a hit on that Arty unit lacking an air strike ) with 4 dice aren't terrible - roughly 13% I think.

At some point it really isn't going to matter what percentage one rolls - exceptionally good or bad dice are superfluous and serve no purpose if they all come at the start or end of a game... Well - other than perhaps helping to achieve the expected outcomes over the long run that one might expect ( kind of falls back into my theory in general: " When the specific rolls are rolled is critical " ) doesn't it?
      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Mon, 18 February 2013 19:50
Quit2 wrote on Mon, 18 February 2013 05:27

Trent,

So, according to me, there was nothing out of the ordinary during our game. I was just lucky to start the game with 3 excellent cards (as did you) and I was so lucky to kill your artillery with only 4 dice. Neither of which is so unlikely that it should set of alarms.



Again, agreed... Except of course that I am focused on two very specific cards, and that, combined with the very lucky Arty kill - happened in consecutive games...
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:Random ? Really ? Mon, 18 February 2013 20:09
Has anyone seen this or am I just imagining things?

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/smilingGI2_zps7a5a217f.jpg
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Random ? Really ? Mon, 18 February 2013 20:14
trentdep wrote on Mon, 18 February 2013 21:14

Ras...

Agreed - If one enters the conversation being of the opinion that dice and cards would never, ever be manipulated - for any reason, then we are indeed talking apples to oranges. As I've stated - I'm just not of that opinion.


So what's a reason that dice and cards would need to be manipulated? The only reason you've given so far is to 'maintain control' but I'm as unconvinced by that as you seem to be by any of the other arguments we've given.

Quote:

" Again, I don't think there is a single video game that manipulates your chances of hitting...but the actual randomizer is left alone! "

It may or it may not be - I'm not sure that either of us are in a position to know, and - well, read above and sub "randomizer" for "dice and cards"...


Fair enough; we probably aren't in a position to know. So look at the top again. Why would video games manipulate core results of games? In World of Warcraft, the experience is based around running around attacking monsters. If the attack odds were messed with (outside of the equipment and upgrades) the game completely fails at its goal.

In Black Ops, the point is to shoot other people. If the target spot was falsely manipulated to make it easier to hit things (for low skilled players) or threw off the aim of high skilled players, the whole game would be pointless. The designers would have failed completely at their goal.

Memoir '44, at its core, is based on timely card plays and dice rolls. That's the whole point of the game. Changing the core of the game would change the whole thing. DoW has hired skilled programmers and they have created a great version of the board game.

For that reason, I believe (completely) that there is nothing changing the background of the Online game. As interesting as this conversation is, I'm going to have to agree with Nygaard and be done with it. Others are welcome to continue the discussion but we're just talking in circles.
      
stevens
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Re:Random ? Really ? Mon, 18 February 2013 21:09
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Mon, 18 February 2013 14:09

Has anyone seen this or am I just imagining things?

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/smilingGI2_zps7a5a217f.jpg


I know I have seen that face somewhere before, but where could it be????

http://scifitoys.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/palpatine.jpg?w=300&h=225

Little do they know about the SINISTER DOW Evil Empire.
Shocked Rolling Eyes Twisted Evil

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 18 February 2013 21:11]

      
stevens
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Re:Random ? Really ? Mon, 18 February 2013 21:14
http://www.puppetsforeducation.co.uk/Pelham-Puppet-Soldier-39-Captain-Bob-39_700_600_1PWBL.jpg

"The gamers on Memoir '44 Online are mere puppets in our hands!"

But someone will figure out the secret CODE.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSh_FRI_cguQ-SkWa0WqhBi-E5YRBHjCR-HCp9Nmrmwg_RYUuSQ

[Mis à jour le: Mon, 18 February 2013 21:18]

      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:Random ? Really ? Mon, 18 February 2013 21:59
Hey Stevens, you are really getting the hang of it! Laughing

It feels good to know I have a succesor when I retire. Nod

"May the farce be with you" Laughing
      
stevens
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Re:Random ? Really ? Mon, 18 February 2013 22:14
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Mon, 18 February 2013 15:59

Hey Stevens, you are really getting the hang of it! Laughing

It feels good to know I have a succesor when I retire. Nod

"May the farce be with you" Laughing


I told you that I understood how your brain worked. Yes, I am having way too much fun. It is probably time to let this baby rest.
      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 01:07
I don't know Diet - seems like your work has lost a bit of its edginess since perhaps the Iwo Jima cry fest...

I wish I knew how to incorporate one picture into another without it looking like it's been Scotch taped, but alas - it's not in my skill set...

Anyway - I'm thinking perhaps a few cards up that soldier's sleeve would be very cool - maybe an extra set of dice attached to those parachutes ?...

Hmmm - Is your signature short a few ribbons that were there in your previous posts?... Perhaps Big Brother really *is* watching.

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j431/trentdep/Untitled_zps00e63854.jpg
      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 01:48
Ras - Yes - we are indeed talking in circles at this point, and I'd have to agree that it has become pointless to try to convince you that my view is correct, or I yours.

Since you asked a question, I'll take the time to answer it ( again I think )...

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j431/trentdep/Untitled_zpsa67d86cd.jpghttp://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j431/trentdep/Untitled1_zpsaf2af51d.jpg

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 19 February 2013 02:18]

      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 02:19
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j431/trentdep/Untitled2_zps6bb54ce7.jpghttp://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j431/trentdep/Untitled3_zps587af1ff.jpg
      
Quit2
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 12:02
Trent,

The odds of getting the cards are higher than what you state. You looked at the odds of getting those cards on draw 5 and 6, because they are the highest. To that, you have to add the odds that you get one or both cards on one of the previous draws.

But anyway, the odds are not that important ... the possibility exists ... that's what counts ...
Or to say it with someone else's words:
Mathematician: do you know how bad the odds are for you to ever win the jackpot in the lottery? 1 in 4 million.
Philosopher: so, that means there is a chance? That's all I needed to know, I keep playing.
      
Quit2
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 12:41
But to be honest, I don't think this will led to anything.

Trent started this conversation with the conviction that the game has a certain balancing mechanism encoded in the program to give a certain player better dice or cards.
He gave a motif and proof, neither of which convinces me and certain other people.

I, and some other players, got into this conversation with the conviction that the game has no balancing mechanism encoded, except for the randomness of cards and dice.
We said that there is no motif and how DoW has repeatedly stated this exact thing, and that DoW has no motif to lie about it. Neither of these points convinces Trent.

I don't see much middle ground, or much ways to get any convincing material. So I'm letting this rest.

Regards,
Wim
      
sam1812
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 13:22
I used to have some doubts about the randomness of the dice, because it seemed that too many games had events with abnormally high or low probabilities. (For example, 35% hit rates against infantry.)

However, it has been well documented that the percentage of rolls corresponding to each of the six faces is 1/6, down to a very high degree of precision.

DOW has stated that the randomizer doesn't know which of the multiple simultaneous games it's rolling for, and doesn't know what unit it's rolling against. It just gets a call to roll 3d and sends the results.

If there's any streakiness in the dice, it's being randomly distributed among the multiple games, at whatever intervals the players call for rolls -- so the players themselves are randomizing any streakiness or patterns out of the system. That's what convinced me to stop being suspicious.

As for unlikely events ... there are hundreds of different low-probability events that would stand out in someone's mind. Considered as a group, the aggregate probability of having something uncommon happen is not so small.

Is there a bias against strong players? Consider the special case of the super-high-rated Red Barricades "specialists." They manage to win from both sides, against most opponents, over and over again. If there were a bias against strong players, surely they would be the first to suffer.

Is the AI even capable of strategizing to defeat the plans of strong players? The AI is only capable of playing the game at a rating in the 1500s. What would make it smart enough to out-think a strong player? Nope. Sometimes you get a few conspicuously bad draws in a row ... sometimes you get a few great draws in a row ... and most of the time you don't notice.

I remember one game where an opponent was about to roll 2d against a full-strength artillery. I said, "If you roll two grenades, it will be the stuff of legend." Sure enough, he rolled two grenades. Bias? Doubtful. This was a live, 8-player Overlord battle, he was a below-average player, and I'm sure he didn't have a way to bias the dice tower.
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 13:35
Hi Trent,

You write that my work seems to have lost a bit of its edginess since perhaps the Iwo Jima cry fest... . If the degree of how people feel hurt by my visual jokes is your standard, I agree that they have become less effective. The Iwo Jima / purple flag incident, which was purely intended as a visual joke, showed me that what some people find funny others consider as inappropriate, shocking or hurting. I even got hate pm's! Frown

It looks like no neo Nazis play memoir 44, or post items on the blog, since no one seems to be shocked by Hitler cartoons (or maybe they just are keeping low profile, who knows).

Because our great leader Richard Borg always dictates us to have fun I think twice before I make a photo cartoon.

I also experience that I don't get much reactions on my "work" anymore. Maybe people are gotten used to it and don't respond anymore. Sad
So guys if you like my stuff, let me know!

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 19 February 2013 13:36]

      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 13:38
Maybe it's a bug?

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/hitlerbug_zpsd68525ba.jpg
      
stevens
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 14:07
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Tue, 19 February 2013 07:35


So guys if you like my stuff, let me know!



DON'T STOP BEING CREATIVE!

I would be so bored and I need those belly laughs to keep me in good health. So I know it is selfish of me, but keep it coming.

[Mis à jour le: Tue, 19 February 2013 14:09]

      
LooneyLlama
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 15:31
Please continue with the very funny photos and captions. I haven't posted how much I enjoy them until now. I've been a lurking fan of yours since you started. I see no 'evil' in them at all. Sometimes I think political correctness has us all cowering under its glare.
      
Helcat
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 15:38
Go on Dietrich
      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 17:04
Quit2 wrote on Tue, 19 February 2013 06:02

Trent,

The odds of getting the cards are higher than what you state. You looked at the odds of getting those cards on draw 5 and 6, because they are the highest. To that, you have to add the odds that you get one or both cards on one of the previous draws.

But anyway, the odds are not that important ... the possibility exists ... that's what counts ...
Or to say it with someone else's words:
Mathematician: do you know how bad the odds are for you to ever win the jackpot in the lottery? 1 in 4 million.
Philosopher: so, that means there is a chance? That's all I needed to know, I keep playing.



Re odds - I *think* that since we struck out on draws 1 - 4, the odds got slightly better ( 4 less cards left in the deck - 4 less "bad" cards in the way... ) If taken on draw 1 and 2, it would have to be 4:60, and 2:59 ( again - we dropped from 3 - 2 as we are not looking to match the card we just drew, but rather to come up with the other card required for the set ).

So - .0667 x .0338 or .0022 or something just under 1/4% ( Yes, I misplaced a zero in my calculation previously and misstated the percentage as 2.2 % ). And again, the odds of this happening in consecutive games are essentially zero by a factor of ten if you will. There are a few ways we could calculate this, depending on at which draw we state that we first pulled a card that we were looking for, but in all cases there are five zeros after the decimal point before we see a digit of value - and that would always be a 4, so .000004 or 4/1000s of a percent.

So yeah - even without the misplaced zero the odds would be slightly worse, as expected - I chose cards 5 and 6 initially so as to give the game the best case scenario benefit of the doubt, however - I did not mean to give it the lost zero benefit!

OK - so this should happen once in every 400 or so games. I'm sure that there were more than 400 games played on Memoir Online that day, so cool - I'll go with once, but not twice consecutively - that should probably not happen within the expected life span of the Online game.


But point taken - and as they say on a very small island in the Alaskan Interior Passage : White ravens do not exist - until someone spots one.

      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 17:37
Sam...

Getting my head around all of those zeros after the decimal point was easier than : "If there's any streakiness in the dice, it's being randomly distributed among the multiple games, at whatever intervals the players call for rolls -- so the players themselves are randomizing any streakiness or patterns out of the system."

I think you're kind of helping my ~ Provoquer de la journee' ( forgive me native French speakers ). More players calling for the ( supposedly ) random rolls should actually break down ( or diminish ) the likelihood of a streak...

( Below concepts have been previously covered if you care to skip the additional commentary )

I don't know that this would have to be a very sophisticated coding - it could be as simple as adding - or subtracting, a symbol from the 6 sided die. Been a long time since I wrote basic on my Tandy TRS 80 so I wont even try, but if it could be easily done in basic, well...

The Red Barricades Bullies could be easily explained : The coding isn't absolute - it is not going to make one always roll Stars ( except of course when you might want them ) or always deal you nothing but Recon 1's ( Optionally, Sand Bags if you are playing an Armor only scenario ). Rather, it just "nudges" the table just a bit. So yeah - there would still be plenty of room to excel, perhaps just a little less. Who knows - those RBBs might be rated 2500 w/out the control in place ( assuming it exists of course ).

      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 17:44
Diet...

I had the same exact thought regarding the apparent lack of Nazi sympathizers! Seems like easy pickings!

And yeah - there was a lot of overreaction ( in my opinion ) to the Iwo Jima thing, and I'm really shocked ( as well as a little saddened ) to hear of the ~ Hate Mail ~, but hell - you live so far away from any semblance of civilization that you're good - any letter bombs would be soggy and duds by the time they reached your part of the world - assuming that they didn't end up on the French black market before then, so - go for it!

      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 18:15
Sam...

Yeah - I would hate to go down with a 2 grenade roll against my full strength Arty !

But to put it in perspective - I *think* this would have to happen like 4 times in a row to reach similar odds... Too much math for one day - I have a feeling I lost another zero, so it may be even more...


http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j431/trentdep/Untitled_zps68c12929.jpg
      
Jeronimon
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 18:32
trentdep wrote on Tue, 19 February 2013 17:44

you live so far away from any semblance of civilization that you're good - any letter bombs would be soggy and duds by the time they reached your part of the world -


Hmm, might I remind the distinguished gentleman from over the big pond that in our neck of the woods we feel we have been rather civilised for a long time. I personally see no reverting to earlier savagery, and would thus state your "semblance of civilisation" started a little later. It is also my opinion you have not "overtaken" us yet. Wink

So unless you are a native Indian I would ask you to refrain from naming us uncivilised. Cool
(I knew we should never have sold New Amsterdam to those chappies! Rolling Eyes )



Dieder
As always, keep it up! I do not always tell you that I enjoy your work.
Artists show us the world in a different view. Sometimes that just makes us laugh, but it can also make us feel a little uncomfortable. I and, judging from the Iwo Jima thread, more people enjoy what you do but are also prepared to talk about it. It seemed at the time that Europeans were less offended by that than the Americans. (Yes I am generalising. Embarassed )

How, and indeed if, that reflects on, how civilised who is where, I will let the readers judge for themselves. Razz
      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 21:07
I don't know Jeron - I've spent the better part of two winters on the North Sea coast, and I'm of the opinion that it is indeed ~ Savage and Barbarious ~...

No civilized people would live there by choice !
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 22:20
trentdep wrote on Tue, 19 February 2013 21:07

I don't know Jeron - I've spent the better part of two winters on the North Sea coast, and I'm of the opinion that it is indeed ~ Savage and Barbarious ~...

No civilized people would live there by choice !


http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/bundy_zpsfdccc7c2.jpg
      
Jeronimon
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Re:Random ? Really ? Tue, 19 February 2013 22:57
Well I can tell you that I certainly enjoy living here. Cool

Apparently savage and barbarous agree with me. Wink



On a more serious note: although the opinions are not going to be swayed by this thread, I feel it has worth. Both sides are doing their best to give good arguments to support their opinions and theories with arguments (some more serious than others Smile ) and I find I have learned some new knowledge.For instance: I did know about the "distribution of nature" but the example I mostly heard was rain spatter (spread evenly and more "blotchy") the experiment with the dice is a nice one to add to that.

So while this thread is "going nowhere" I still think it has merit.


So as brigadier I say: carry on gentlemen. Wink
      
hdescavernes
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Re:Random ? Really ? Wed, 20 February 2013 01:26
Dietrich : here is my reaction to your creations :

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zW9IALDE2WU/USQNwphF3-I/AAAAAAAAADw/dJp2tSLZTVw/s350/953-20050301231927.jpg]

As other have said, keep 'em coming.
      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Wed, 20 February 2013 15:45
Yeah Dietrich !

In the immortal words of Carrie Heffernan (Leah Remini): " I can't say I'm not luvin it !".


Jeron...

" So while this thread is "going nowhere" I still think it has merit. "

Thank you ! I generally don't really care in which direction overall opinion heads, or the degree to which one "side" is supported - just as long as people take a moment to ponder...

Whether it's a : " Huh - how *did* that happen ?" or a " Fixed dice and cards? Oh he*l no - this guy needs to stop pis*ing on Richard's new shoes " it's cool - either one offers a certain amount of entertainment value - especially when reasonably well written and offering *some* new / additional reasoning, or expansion if you will.

In any case, it's been a refreshing break from reading updates to the ~ Online Eastern Front Tournament ~ and ~ Welcome to new Colonels ~ threads, as well as an unexpected ~ Come On People - We've Got To Give Dietrich Some Love Cause Trent Is Giving Him Sh*t ~ campaign.
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

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Re:Random ? Really ? Wed, 20 February 2013 20:15
This thread has turned into a much longer conversation than any of us probably expected when we first started. And it is, indeed, a nice change from the normal updated threads. Smile

One request, Trentdep, would be to eliminate the swear words completely. One of the many things that makes this a wonderful community is that the forums are family friendly. I can recommend that 5th grade students of mine check the forums when they have questions without being worried that I'm going to get in trouble with their parents. While replacing letters with * is nice, it would be even better to not use the words to begin with.

Thanks for your understanding and for such an interesting discussion. Cool
      
sdnative
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Colonel

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Re:Random ? Really ? Thu, 21 February 2013 04:44
QUIT TALKING! And just roll the dice man! Smile Smile
      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Thu, 21 February 2013 06:20
sdnative wrote on Wed, 20 February 2013 22:44

QUIT TALKING! And just roll the dice man! Smile Smile


I am !! I've bloodied my fingers trying to roll 8 grenades...
      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Thu, 21 February 2013 06:48
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 20 February 2013 14:15



I can recommend that 5th grade students...


Oh my !! Fifth grade students with internet access - Gods forbid they should be so exposed by my maladroit manipulations at insightful indites...

( There - I made up for it as they'll probably learn a new word or two... )

I can see the young ladies cowering in the corner of the coat room, young men raking at their eyes with pencils in a an attempt to scour them of the horrendous visions - and that very strange girl that sits in the corner, pausing from her endless task of carving herself with paper cuts - but just for a moment, and then returning to her slightly slaughterous solitude...

( But yes - I understand your concerns... )
      
Antoine
-= Crew =-
Historien

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Re:Random ? Really ? Thu, 21 February 2013 10:51
Well what can I say.

http://tof.canardpc.com/preview/9965f4c4-a5b1-4c31-ad03-2bde3e0eaf55.jpg
Since I will not repeat here what we explained everywhere, here you go:
Why AI cannot cheat in M44 Online

[Mis à jour le: Thu, 21 February 2013 16:37]

      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Victoire totale

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Re:Random ? Really ? Thu, 21 February 2013 14:12
Danke

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/DiederC/thankyou_zps73ffe8c8.jpg
      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Thu, 21 February 2013 15:49
Antoine ...

Thanks for the link - I'm pretty sure I had previously scanned and dismissed it, as it seems to focus on AI play and this thread does not...

I must say though - it was a somewhat sobering example of condescending commentary by *some* Senior Members - including a DOW contributor...
      
trentdep
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Re:Random ? Really ? Thu, 21 February 2013 15:50
Diet...

I could swear there was a blue 4 x 4 pickup truck in the parking lot - look out for an Iwo Jima purist fueled sniper!
      
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