Five Tribes Five Tribes

Forums

Recherche
Forums » Memoir '44 Online - English » number of cards in scenario design...?
Montrer: Messages du jour 
  
AuteurSujet
Iron Gut Heath
Senior Member
Chanceux

Pages Perso
Messages: 264
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2012
number of cards in scenario design...? Tue, 21 January 2014 00:57
Does anyone have some insight into how to determine how many cards each side should have when designing a new scenario?

I've built "Advance on Hill X" but wonder how many cards each side should have.

What are your principles, scenario designers?

I'd also love to have anyone who wants to, test it under the Pacific SFTF list and give me some feedback...

Thanks Comrades
      
LooneyLlama
Senior Member
Chanceux

Pages Perso
Messages: 749
Enregistré(e) en :
March 2008
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Tue, 21 January 2014 01:58
Hi IGH,

Card distribution is not as important as you might think. In my designs I try to keep it somewhat even. 5-4, 5-5 or 6-5 are my usual set-ups. If you try 6-4, be sure to test it thoroughly as this could be very frustrating for the side with 4 cards. If the scenario doesn't allow the side with four cards to win you will either need to give them another one or make their defenses stronger. Usually if one side is getting four cards they are on the defensive. Four cards for an offensive side would be suicide as there would e very little in the way of a follow-up attack, since there are so few cards from which to choose. Anyway, if you have any more questions , I would be happy to try to answer them here.

LooneyLlama
      
Quit2
Senior Member
Historien accompli

Pages Perso
Messages: 1173
Enregistré(e) en :
July 2007
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Tue, 21 January 2014 10:18
By default, for me, I give 5 cards each (in standard and breakthrough formats - overlord is different)
I deviate from this is there is a good reason to do so.
I never go less than 4, or more than 6.

Thematic:
I drop 1 card to 4 cards if I want to represent some historical handicap in the orders given out, like when the confrontation came as a surprise to one side, or if there was a problem to get orders through down the line, or if the commanding officer was inexperienced.
I raise card count by 1 to 6 cards if I want to represent the extreme preparation of the conflict by one of the sides. Or if some of the lower ranked officers historically took some good initiative to act on their own successfully.

Game play:
If I intend for one side to be the more offensive side, I will generally give 6 cards. It allows to play a sequence of cards in the same section.
If I want a defensive side to be relatively immobile, I will drop the card count to 4.
If there is few opportunity for units to fight in another section than the one they started in, I might give 6 cards as well, since fewer cards require more manoeuvring to optimise them.
If every section has plenty of units, that side can have less cards. If however, one or two sections have very few units, more cards are needed.
      
Iron Gut Heath
Senior Member
Chanceux

Pages Perso
Messages: 264
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2012
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Tue, 21 January 2014 19:11
Thanks gentlemen! That was really helpful and confirmed what I was leaning toward. It is amazing how tweaking any of many details in scenarios affects the balance.

What are your thoughts about the number of victory medals? And if you've already addressed this elsewhere feel free to direct me there.
      
Quit2
Senior Member
Historien accompli

Pages Perso
Messages: 1173
Enregistré(e) en :
July 2007
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Tue, 21 January 2014 19:29
For the number of medals I also have a rule of thumb, of which one can deviate in case of need. But it's still a good rule to use as a base.

Take all the medals one side could possibly obtain (all units that give a medal when killed + all objective medals + one per exit marker). About half of that number should be the number of medals required for the scenario.

If you take more, the game will drag on and players will feel like they don't have the required units to make the medals. If you take less, the scenario is over while the battle seems far from over and players are dissatisfied. The best official and SFTF scenarios use this rule, either consciously or just based on gut feeling of the designer.

Take note that you can see this in two ways:
Either you place units and objectives, and then you decide how many medals are required, or you decide on the required medals first, and based on that, you see how many units you're "allowed" to use and how many objectives you can place.
      
Iron Gut Heath
Senior Member
Chanceux

Pages Perso
Messages: 264
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2012
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Tue, 21 January 2014 19:43
You're a genius! After working through several tests and revises, and finding the scenario finally had a decent, enjoyable balance, I just counted medals for victory/possible medals and it came out to exactly 6/12 for the offensive side. For the defensive side it came out 6/10 but seems to work because the offensive side is coming at them to try to take the temp/permanent medals. So, thanks for that general rule on the ratio.
      
Iron Gut Heath
Senior Member
Chanceux

Pages Perso
Messages: 264
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2012
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Tue, 21 January 2014 19:44
Oh, and by the way, have you posted guidelines like these to the Wiki? http://m44sed.wikispaces.com/
      
Quit2
Senior Member
Historien accompli

Pages Perso
Messages: 1173
Enregistré(e) en :
July 2007
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Tue, 21 January 2014 21:10
Iron Gut Heath wrote on Tue, 21 January 2014 19:43

You're a genius! After working through several tests and revises, and finding the scenario finally had a decent, enjoyable balance, I just counted medals for victory/possible medals and it came out to exactly 6/12 for the offensive side. For the defensive side it came out 6/10 but seems to work because the offensive side is coming at them to try to take the temp/permanent medals. So, thanks for that general rule on the ratio.

It's always nice to see how people come to the same findings by testing … confirms that my guideline works.

      
Quit2
Senior Member
Historien accompli

Pages Perso
Messages: 1173
Enregistré(e) en :
July 2007
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Tue, 21 January 2014 21:12
Iron Gut Heath wrote on Tue, 21 January 2014 19:44

Oh, and by the way, have you posted guidelines like these to the Wiki? http://m44sed.wikispaces.com/


No, … I have added nothing so far to the wiki. Feel free to do so in my place.
      
Iron Gut Heath
Senior Member
Chanceux

Pages Perso
Messages: 264
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2012
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Tue, 21 January 2014 22:07
I'll stick in your feedback and give you the credit... Wink
      
van Voort
Senior Member
General Mayor

Pages Perso
Messages: 656
Enregistré(e) en :
August 2011
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Thu, 23 January 2014 00:58
There is little I can add to the general discusion, most people go between 4 and 6

More than 6 gives a player no hard choices, he will almost always be able to do what he wants

Less than 4 cripples a player, so you should only do that unless you have a very good reason

My Battle of Berlin scenario is about the only scenario I can think of that has a three card hand for someone.


Note however that there things you can do to affect command abilities other than change the hand size.


Note that as a matter of design philosphy I am perfectly happy to use the crunch of the rule to get the effect I want and not worry about the fluff. Hence I will use Commissar and Gung Ho for other than Red Army and Marines.
      
van Voort
Senior Member
General Mayor

Pages Perso
Messages: 656
Enregistré(e) en :
August 2011
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Thu, 23 January 2014 01:08
Commissar
This reflects an army that is not reacting fast, this is not the same thing as not having flexibility which is what hand size represents

I'd be prepared to use this for any situation where one side is reacting faster than another, so 1940 French would be a choice for example

I judge this to be worth roughly a card


Gung Ho
An Army that has some ascendency at a tactical level, but not necessarily better led.
Note that this is clos to being broken on maps with exit hexes when combined with BEL


I judge this to be worth roughly half a card


You can combine both of these to reflect an army that fights very well but is poorly directed

Blitz
Don't forget about this, it is not that useful most of the time, but it is an option

Hill 317

As noted in the wiki you can make this universal, which is insanely good if the Axis have any unit density at all
      
Iron Gut Heath
Senior Member
Chanceux

Pages Perso
Messages: 264
Enregistré(e) en :
December 2012
Re:number of cards in scenario design...? Wed, 05 February 2014 21:48
van Voort wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 01:58



Note that as a matter of design philosphy I am perfectly happy to use the crunch of the rule to get the effect I want and not worry about the fluff. Hence I will use Commissar and Gung Ho for other than Red Army and Marines.



van Voort,
I agree on your point about using those rules to help the scenario work along the lines of what actually happened. I've interacted with some guys who question doing that if the rule isn't reflective of that particular set of troops (say, a Gungho rule for an army batt), but I guess if justification is given in your scenario info about why that rule is being used, it could help override "historical accuracy" for the sake of a well designed scenario that reflects the historical reality.

Anyway, thanks for your principles on using those rules. Very helpful!
      
    
Sujet précédent:Designed a scenario
Sujet suivant:HELP to organize first ITALIAN ONLINE tournament/League
Aller au forum: