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Nemo_
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sun, 26 August 2007 20:43
If they NC should be fun, why it is so important that it's called NC. I think playing would be as fun even it would be called Team Cup.
      
youki
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sun, 26 August 2007 21:06
Zeno,

I heard you are the new statisical guy on the block ... coool ... Can you please feed me some data on persons who posted most rubbish in the last 96 hours ... catagorised bye the degree of intent to destroy the ttr community on their own egotitistical behalve ...

pls disregard my last paragraph ... it was cynical and everyone knows the answer anyway ...

On a personal account I cannot remain silent and rather than to continue on the bad ... I would like to put my gratitude and emphasize on the good work some people have put forward to this community ... such as maintaining a website fully beneficial to this community; putting tears, sweat and many hours of deliberating issues into this event trying to take decisions as a TD. People like Shamogi and Thadd have my thanks for spending their precious spare hours into a community they felt so intwined with that they were happy to invest their love and energy. For the benefit of hundreds of people ...

And now ... there seem to be 2 guys (1 is staying quiet since a day or so, so maybe only the whining little kid remains), who for some reason try everything in their power to get their way and to spoil a good game for all the other good people .

It is a silly world people ... Let us unite as loving and pieceful beings ... And for the evil ones ... it is not too late ... My sympathy and love goes to you ... I will pray for you in my meditations ... hehehe Twisted Evil Twisted Evil





      
streetcar-Endstation
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sun, 26 August 2007 22:13
Very nice words you all say, but where the hell is bassie????
He can solve it, no one else.

      
dea1
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sun, 26 August 2007 22:31
ok, next try:

Let's have a poll - do we want
a) a TD (Thadd) whose decision stands when taken
b) a TD whose decision can be turned over by an appeals committee (consisting of all captains, simple majority decides)
c) no TD but only a rule board (consisting of all captains, simple majority decides)

captains of registered teams shall vote - simple majority decides.

--------

Austria votes for a)
(originally I favoured a rule board - but developments show that allowing more than one final opinion leads to endless and useless discussion and nowhere else - therefore the change of mind)
      
Bigslug
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sun, 26 August 2007 22:46
I vote for A

Thadd was chosen as our tournament director.

I really want to play in this tournament and i will respect the decision of the TD.


Bigslug
      
*player277410
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sun, 26 August 2007 23:01
Bigslug,

You don't vote for A.

I do, soon.
      
streetcar-Endstation
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sun, 26 August 2007 23:12




[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 07:50]

      
Bigslug
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sun, 26 August 2007 23:39
dea1 wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 13:31



captains of registered teams shall vote - simple majority decides.






Oops missed that line.... sorry...


.
      
OLE Masimo
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 00:22
some just cannot read ...... Twisted Evil - not just you, Bigslug

dea asked the captains of the so far registered teams - as i did before as well - and not anyone ... sorry but of course we could flood this forum with A`s .....

Team OLE votes for A like Team Austria does.


but i have to make a few comments here
@ thekid : you suggest a rule board - we do have the captains of the so far registered teams - these are meant to speak for their teams. Are you captain? I have asked for a captains vote and Dea repeated that now. If i am not mistaken three captains of the so far 6 registered teams have stated their opinion already stating that a TD`s decision was to be taken. Did you read that? - did you understand that? Or are you only able to understand what you want for yourself? I have my doubts of your understanding of democracy as you point it out. It seems to me that it will only be democratic if it serves your interest? (american interpretation of democracy?)


If you want a vote against TD have your captain sign your team in and have your captain vote. I have no problem with that - i`ll accept any majority.
Stiil I`m not sure you will accept that decision if it is not in your favour, but well ....


by the way i want to point out two old posts from last year:

erps schrieb am Wed, 20 September 2006 12:50

Hi

Regarding the rules...

Personally i doubt there will be a third NC next year but you never know. IF there is a third NC, we have the same problems with the rules because of two things:

1. Bassie is doing the rules. This is a mistake, because "his" child NC is now adult and beyond his control.
2. Which players are the legislature? Before the NC is starting we need the rules. But a board of captains is only available with the last team signing in to the tournament!

I think we should VOTE for the rules DURING this NC for the next NC!

We have 15 captains, we have bassie as inventor and thadd as TD. They should vote for all rules and claim who is responsible for rule changes during the NC. Of course they can vote to invite other players into the legislature... Wink

We need 2 part of rules, the META-rules (changing the rules, deciding order etc.) and the actual rules for the games and scoring.

The game rules should not as detailed as they are now. For a first draft it is enough to say that above some number of teams they will be divided in groups. Now you can make an Addendum of the rules, that do the diving by numbers or ranking.

The rules for NC and all other tournaments should be stored on a special site or thread. If someone is trying to organize a tournament he can use this rules as template for the tournament rules.

bye, erps




OLE-Masimo schrieb am Tue, 29 May 2007 18:37



My proposal is that we need a smaller board of players, that discuss and settle the rules and then fix them.

I would suggest we ask bassie, Thadd, spudamon and the last years team captains to join that "decission board" - thus we could get a good average of what the players want and a much faster decission. If someone doesn`t want to take part in this "decision board" - that`s ok as well, but then that team cannot complain it couldn`t take part in the decision phase.

I hope we can agree on such a board and speed up the "preNC rules clash"



We missed these chances and have the terrifying battles again. So we have to stand it. For this year let`s stop arguing now and wait for the votes dea asked for.
Maybee we are able to learn out of it and can improve things for next year. (will there be a "next"? - I still hope so)

still hoping for a challenging NC ....
OLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 00:44
Hi

Never thought it would make such a mess.

The reason why i decided not to play NC this year was that i am not able to accept a (imo) wrong decision of the TD. This is my free choice, and it is much better than playing AND not accepting the ruling. With this decision i am accepting the ruling in a way but i am leaving the ruling system. So i don't understand why thadd was giving up the TD post and it is definitly not my fault.

The message to the "fun" callers. I can't hear this anymore. "This is fun", "This should be fun", "Fun and games". Forget it. Are you part of this society members that think fun is in the air? Do you think the funny movie you were looking in the cinema was made by laughing people? Do you go the club and have fun not seeing the barmaid, the manager, the money behind, the hard work and this all for YOU having fun? Organizing such an event as NC should be no "fun". This is work to do and without a proper organisation and a proper rule system there will be no "fun" for all of you. Do you think the people of DoW are working and singing the whole day maintaining the servers for your little fun game? Do you want competition? Then you have to accept that this is not 100% fun. A FAIR and GOOD competition needs strong rules and strong deciders. All this was available MONTHS ago and i can't hear "the decision for this year stands, let's talk it over next year." IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. AGAIN. Same as last year. I am getting bored of doing the paper work for this community over and over and nobody is responding.

Call this competition Team Cup, but face it, that decision is horrible for the nations cup. But a team cup will not work. Why? Because there will be 2 teams with a chance to win. There is a good reason to split players into nations. Do you think it would be fun watching the soccer world championsship with one team with the best 11 players of the world and another team with the second best 11 players? Same would happen here. We have an ex-number 1 team of Anu, Toutoune, Whitetrain, Womble and Tofra and some others with nearly no chance.

Please go and have a look at the great spanish team. They registered today and THEY have found a lot of low ranked players playing for their country, same as last year as hojita started with 1300 points and is now a respected member of the community. This is the way the dutch have to do it, i proposed it three times and then i hear there were no proposals to solve this. There were! Okay, you are not willing to accept minor players in your team, but then go and post your team in a thread, THEN hear the complaints of THE COMMUNITY and THEN let the TD decide. But no, you did this in the dark corners, asking a friendly TD. And then you wonder that some people are not happy? A decision taken by a TD, who was elected by bassie (the true captain of the dutch and the master of NC), regarding a player she is befriended for a long time? If you can't understand what you have done wrong, you need really help.

All of you will now vote for A that thadd remains TD and the decision stands. Of course you want peace and the NC, i understand this, that was the reason why i gave way with leaving the NC. But you are cowards. Most of you not really want this TN team, i think. And i hope that this team is winning the cup, because then i will hear you complaining. And, this is the best part: After their NC win you will make a decision board and forbid the team that was winning the cup the moment before. THAT is really funny. Deciding now BEFORE this fall of man is happening would be the better choice but as usual most of you are hiding behind the "stick to the rules" thing. Pathetic.

For me it's not important to win this cup anymore as some people stated. The fact that i am leaving, is prove to that because even with orange connection our team would be strong enough to win this event eventually. So don't come with this bullshit. The only ones that want to win this event is obviously the orange connection. And if you can't see the unethical thing in this TN team (i gave a lot of arguments and proofs) you will never understand the concept of real sport events. And to all the nice people that see "good points on both sides", "understand both points". Get a grip and decide, you can't support both sides, that is impossible. You don't want to decide, that's worse than deciding the (imo) wrong way.

bye, erps

P.S. And youki, you are the worst. You are number one in the name calling category und you never gave any argument or proper advice in the whole thread. Stop saying that you are the good guys and the bad guys want to ruin all. Or say, that "good" is only the other side of "bad".

P.P.S thekid may be disgusting but he has a lot of points here (in his own usual way that may not really helpful). The manipulating was alreaday done by Anu's resigning, then a lot of "come back" posts (most from her team members) and then the "i will fight for my place" post a day later. This is politican tactic and kid is seeing this, most of you not.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 01:20]

      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 00:50
streetcar-Endstation wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 16:13

Very nice words you all say, but where the hell is bassie????
He can solve it, no one else.




He's already solved it. He told you to bend over. And you lemmings are following. Good for him. But its great he's been shown to be a total hypocrite, a liar and one who will make decisions to help himself. Great for him. All he does is talk nice to you and you listen, follow lemmings follow.

And what you get here is truth but no sugar coating. Plain and simple. Imagine I told you, if I don't get to play with team Germany, I'm not gonna play. Yeah can you just hear the waves of support.

I don't care how it turns out, but I love seeing the frauds Anu and Bassie exposed.
      
streetcar-Endstation
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 01:03
leere Nachricht

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 07:52]

      
Goscha
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 01:05
WOW, what is going on here.
Problem analysis:
for me the TD is there to watch, that the tournament players follow the rules.
In case of transnational teams we need a clear rule, but not a single TD decision.
The problem is not, if Anu may play in the Dutch Team or not, the problem is, that we must have a general rule for those problems.
To tune up a strong 7 player dutch team with other top players from other countries, where is the sense?
We need a limit. "Not more than 5 from one country in a transnational team." 5 as limit is ok. Those 5 can even build a Nations Team, but this is so close to everyone, that we should allow five players to build a transnational team with others.
But seven, please!!!
Peter will be 8th. Seems like someone doesn't like him.
That will be funny in next football EM.
Ahhh, Klose doesn't like Ballack, so lets take Ronaldinho. lol
And some arguments like, i have no time, or one member likes multiplayer more than 2player or another didn't play for a long time, no no. What shall i say, i play with Tofra and Train. Smile
I say "Define a clear rule" and everything calms down.
My suggestion: "Transnational teams with max. five players of one country."

But i accept TDs decision, too, even if i find it wrong.

But look forward, in case, that the dutch transnational team wins game after game, do you really think, the discussions will find an end??? I say, "NO", even if i'm not a captain.

@Anu, why don't register in the TNT Team? Everyone wants to see you in NC. I am sure, they will be very proud to have you in their team.





[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 01:31]

      
dea1
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 01:39
thekid schrieb am Mon, 27 August 2007 00:50

He told you to bend over. And you lemmings are following.


Hard language to describe it but true, kid. If you are not able to do something better than 'the master' you eventually have to bend over ...

Face it - the 'rule board idea' didn't work out, because we didn't work on it hard enough. Erps brought it up ... nothing happened. Some captains said 'yes I would do it' ... but still nothing happened.
Hadn't it been for Bassie and Thadd we would still do ... nothing ... and wait for someone to get NC going.

So it's about time to say 'thank you for doing something' to those who did. That includes accepting the way they do it - if you like to phrase it 'bending over' so be it.
I'm looking forward to playing NC. I didn't do anything to make it 'better'. So I'm saying 'thank you' to those who took the initiative to make it happen at all (and I think they did it very well - but that's not the issue)
We all decided to be 'lemmings' by doing ... nothing ... in the last months.
There's only two ways: Taking initiative and doing some work IN TIME if you want to be in control - or follow somebody else's initiative if you didn't.
      
*player277410
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 01:47
Now, I am voting for A without bending over, with some knowledge of the concept of Realpolitik, infuriated by Eric Cartman-esque selfish nonsense erps is serving us as righteous morality, with usual grandiloquence.
      
DrakeStorm
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 02:07
Goscha wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 16:05


for me the TD is there to watch, that the tournament players follow the rules.
In case of transnational teams we need a clear rule, but not a single TD decision.


I don't think it could be said better. The TD should be there to make sure the rules are enforced once the tournament starts. Not make decisions about the rules before it starts. Referees in sports don't make up rules to the games, some ruling body or organization does. So in that regard I agree with thekid, a ruling body needs to decide these issues. The ruling body should also elect the TD (and there should be more than 1 name on the ballot!), and if there isn't a few different people willing to do it, then settle for a TD by committee.

And what new people might not know is people had problems with rules last NC and everyone said let's just play it this year and fix it later, and as Erps mentions - NO ONE bothered to fix anything for a whole year, and now we have a problem and people are just saying, let's wait till next year to fix it. People need to stop thinking that its TOO LATE to fix stuff for this year. ITS NOT!

I can't believe all the people who are acting like a child because of a heated discussion. Its like a 4 year old saying "I'm taking my toys and leaving!" Erps is bowing out and taking his TTR tools with him. Shamo is not updating their TTR site with NC stuff, Thadd stepping down... I think everyone should come back to the table and chill out and see what happens. The disagreements aren't that big. Its not like allowing or dis-allowing this transnational team is gonna make or break the NC.

I also love how people say some nations like the USA have all these great people to choose from. USA #1 has the best 5 US Players and last year we barely managed to get into the quarter finals where we got hammered. In the SPWC we all got knocked out early. And not to be mean to USA #2, but if USA #1 has only a slim chance to win the NC, they have virtually 0%. So obviously some teams are just joining to play for the fun of it. Why does a team that is almost a full team need to add in a bunch of really good players, rather than find a few weak players from their country and just play for fun knowing they won't win.

Since I am a Genius, in fact the first TTR Genius (just go look at Zeno's thread), I will tell you what should be done. Someone listed something similar:

1.) All teams should register by Aug 31.
2.) There should be a few days for team captains to bring up issues/rule changes/etc., and then a few days to discuss them.
3.) Team Captains should vote on any changes or rulings, as well as appoint a TD.
4.) Any teams that want to drop out, or need to modify their roster or new teams want to join (because of rule changes, etc.) can now do so. Give a few days for this.
5.) Finalize Rosters
6.) Start the tournament.

Just an idea - maybe we need something between a NC and TeamCup, like a Region's Cup (name would have to be something more spiffy!) where teams are from regions. Would need a ruling body to draw out the lines of the regions, but maybe then Sweden/Norway/Denmark could be a region. And for a Region like Germany - since there are a ton of German players, maybe Germany could be split up into multiple regions (I'm not familair with the geography, but could do North, South, East, West or whatever makes sense). That would cause some shake up in the German teams, but they would still be strong teams. Then allow only 1 or 2 teams per region.








      
*player277410
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 02:22
A Tournament Director, which is not a simple referee, ensures that the registration process abides to the rules. He is the Law.

The only person above him is the Tournament Organiser. If the TO provides of an appeal comity, players or teams could appeal some of the TD's calls. If not, he is the Absolute Law.

I don't define things here. I describe what is happening in the social reality I know.

We don't construct social reality with definitions, however genial we may be.

      
Goscha
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 02:49
No, Kolmo, look what happened here. The social reality is another. The TDs decisions are referee decisions, he is not the law, he has to protect the law. And without law, let's say, without a clear rule, he gets in trouble. This is a kind of sport event. Sport events have rules, they must have!!!
Look what happens if not!! It's not the fault of the TD. But if he can give advantages and disadvantages like he wants, the trouble will never end. What against a clear rule? I made a suggestion, i will also agree with other suggestions.
If we get no solution about this point, which applies for every team, we will never come together!!!

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 02:50]

      
*player277410
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 03:03
No Goscha, when someone entitled to judge renders a decision, he is the law. His decision is more than words : they are what happen, like when someone says <<I sentence you to death >> in appropriate circumstances.

To make those decisions, he must use his judgement. And because he must use his judgement, we don't use a machine to do that. We're not prepared yet to admit that machines can bear this kidn of responsibility. Even when we have machine, for instance at the tennis US Open, we have a person to garantee that the machine does not malfunction.

A referee, and a Tournament Director, does not only see that "the rules are followed". (The concept of rule following is dubious anyway, but let's not get into that.) He's the one to make judgement calls in tough times, i.e. to allow certain things and to forbid others. Take the instance when erps decided that someone were cheating in the last QT : his decision had nothing to do with rules, or very remotely.

The problem we're facing is not a legal one anyway. It's a political one. It's also a moral one, if you take it personnaly as some may. I believe that politics is more important than morality.
      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 03:11
streetcar-Endstation wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 19:03

kid, you are disgusting


You've shown us your picture, I wouldn't talk.
      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 03:15
erps wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 18:44

Hi

Never thought it would make such a mess.

The reason why i decided not to play NC this year was that i am not able to accept a (imo) wrong decision of the TD. This is my free choice, and it is much better than playing AND not accepting the ruling. With this decision i am accepting the ruling in a way but i am leaving the ruling system. So i don't understand why thadd was giving up the TD post and it is definitly not my fault.

The message to the "fun" callers. I can't hear this anymore. "This is fun", "This should be fun", "Fun and games". Forget it. Are you part of this society members that think fun is in the air? Do you think the funny movie you were looking in the cinema was made by laughing people? Do you go the club and have fun not seeing the barmaid, the manager, the money behind, the hard work and this all for YOU having fun? Organizing such an event as NC should be no "fun". This is work to do and without a proper organisation and a proper rule system there will be no "fun" for all of you. Do you think the people of DoW are working and singing the whole day maintaining the servers for your little fun game? Do you want competition? Then you have to accept that this is not 100% fun. A FAIR and GOOD competition needs strong rules and strong deciders. All this was available MONTHS ago and i can't hear "the decision for this year stands, let's talk it over next year." IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. AGAIN. Same as last year. I am getting bored of doing the paper work for this community over and over and nobody is responding.

Call this competition Team Cup, but face it, that decision is horrible for the nations cup. But a team cup will not work. Why? Because there will be 2 teams with a chance to win. There is a good reason to split players into nations. Do you think it would be fun watching the soccer world championsship with one team with the best 11 players of the world and another team with the second best 11 players? Same would happen here. We have an ex-number 1 team of Anu, Toutoune, Whitetrain, Womble and Tofra and some others with nearly no chance.

Please go and have a look at the great spanish team. They registered today and THEY have found a lot of low ranked players playing for their country, same as last year as hojita started with 1300 points and is now a respected member of the community. This is the way the dutch have to do it, i proposed it three times and then i hear there were no proposals to solve this. There were! Okay, you are not willing to accept minor players in your team, but then go and post your team in a thread, THEN hear the complaints of THE COMMUNITY and THEN let the TD decide. But no, you did this in the dark corners, asking a friendly TD. And then you wonder that some people are not happy? A decision taken by a TD, who was elected by bassie (the true captain of the dutch and the master of NC), regarding a player she is befriended for a long time? If you can't understand what you have done wrong, you need really help.

All of you will now vote for A that thadd remains TD and the decision stands. Of course you want peace and the NC, i understand this, that was the reason why i gave way with leaving the NC. But you are cowards. Most of you not really want this TN team, i think. And i hope that this team is winning the cup, because then i will hear you complaining. And, this is the best part: After their NC win you will make a decision board and forbid the team that was winning the cup the moment before. THAT is really funny. Deciding now BEFORE this fall of man is happening would be the better choice but as usual most of you are hiding behind the "stick to the rules" thing. Pathetic.

For me it's not important to win this cup anymore as some people stated. The fact that i am leaving, is prove to that because even with orange connection our team would be strong enough to win this event eventually. So don't come with this bullshit. The only ones that want to win this event is obviously the orange connection. And if you can't see the unethical thing in this TN team (i gave a lot of arguments and proofs) you will never understand the concept of real sport events. And to all the nice people that see "good points on both sides", "understand both points". Get a grip and decide, you can't support both sides, that is impossible. You don't want to decide, that's worse than deciding the (imo) wrong way.

bye, erps

P.S. And youki, you are the worst. You are number one in the name calling category und you never gave any argument or proper advice in the whole thread. Stop saying that you are the good guys and the bad guys want to ruin all. Or say, that "good" is only the other side of "bad".

P.P.S thekid may be disgusting but he has a lot of points here (in his own usual way that may not really helpful). The manipulating was alreaday done by Anu's resigning, then a lot of "come back" posts (most from her team members) and then the "i will fight for my place" post a day later. This is politican tactic and kid is seeing this, most of you not.


Here is one really funny thing, if most of you don't know erps and I have rarely agreed on anything. The amazing thing is there isn't anything in this post that I disagree with. We both knew you'd all pick A. I love predictable people, they help me make lots of money in the stock market.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 03:23]

      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 03:21
dea1 wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 16:31

Austria votes for a)
(originally I favoured a rule board - but developments show that allowing more than one final opinion leads to endless and useless discussion and nowhere else - therefore the change of mind)



What actually causes endless discussions is when the TD makes a decision based on personal friendships. And by choosing A, you make this a team tournament, which is fine with me but then you can never stop anyone from playing for a specific team, because they have personal reasons. The really funny thing is people don't even understand what they are voting for.

And in your later post, there is plenty of time, you just chose not to.

And lastly the funniest thing is you are taking a team vote, which is option C, so you are using C to then choose A. Absolutely hilarious.
      
Goscha
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 03:23
kolmogorov schrieb am Mon, 27 August 2007 03:03


To make those decisions, he must use his judgement.


Right, but the judgement is given by the tournament rules.

kolmogorov schrieb am Mon, 27 August 2007 03:03

Take the instance when erps decided that someone were cheating in the last QT : his decision had nothing to do with rules, or very remotely.


Cheating is forbidden, that's a rule. TD has to protect that rule. Erps did.

Kolmo, you can't really say, "We need no rule for that, TD can decide like he wants." That doesn't work, you see it here.
The only reason for this trouble is, that we didn't define a clear rule, believe me!!
Why are you against it, i don't understand your point of view.

Kid, why insulting some members here with those comments, be polite, please.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 03:32]

      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 03:30
streetcar-Endstation wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 17:12


(oranges, your crisis management was horrible Mad )



Wrong. It was brilliant. He has no defense for his actions so he stays quiet, and now he lets the lemmings who just want peace to do the work for him.
      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 03:37
youki wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 15:06

And now ... there seem to be 2 guys (1 is staying quiet since a day or so, so maybe only the whining little kid remains), who for some reason try everything in their power to get their way and to spoil a good game for all the other good people .



I love to play and look forward to it, was trying to make it fair. As erps said many know they are being cheated but are too nice to say it. I call a cheat, a cheat.

And you sir are cheating to try and win. Lucky for you there are too many nice people here that won't call you on it.
      
Goscha
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 03:39
Oh man, KID, hands off the drugs and alcohol!!!
      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 04:09
Goscha wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 21:23


Kid, why insulting some members here with those comments, be polite, please.


So if kolmo called you a moron and streetcar called you disgusting, would you not respond?
      
Goscha
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 04:15
It's time to calm down.
      
SKMorefield
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 04:16
The tradition of this event is that it is a NATION'S cup. I will not captain a team or participate if a trans-national team is allowed that goes against the rules we have had for these past 2 years.

I'm sorry it has come to this... Sad

EDIT- sorry I haven't caught up with the forums for a few days, so am just seeing this.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 04:56]

      
*player277410
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 04:21
Goscha,

Judgement is given by God I don't know what. Some has it, some not. Even for the Modus Ponens, there are around 5% of the population that does not get it.

I think you must mean that the referee must base is judgement on rules. Of course, but that does not suffice. Erps followed a guideline by tracking some player he thought was cheating. But the fact that he decided that the guy was out of the tournament is not in the rule book.

And really, even if you base your judgement on some set of rules, you're still responsible for your actions. The Nuremberg trial teached us that.

I agree that we need a better tournament format. But that's thinking about the rules, not with them. So it's political. If there is a majority of captains that vote for B, then we will have to, very soon. If there is a majority of captains that vote for A, then we will have to, sometimes, hopefully.

***

For what it may change about what will happen, here is what I think, since you seem open for discussion. There should not be International teams, IMHO, but more tournaments, so that nobody feels that much deprived.

But I could understand geo-political nations, like Austrio-Hungria, Benelux, Scandinavia, even Latin America, Oceania, Artic Pole, and what not. The principle would be to have some geographical sense. This may open a Pandora Box, so we better have some Organizing Comitee involved.

And here, I mean really involved. Solliciting players, finding captains, showing leadership. Not writing rules, discussing in frenzy, or quitting after first signs of anarchy.

***

International relations always are and maybe always be some place where anything goes. We should accept it, grow up, and move on. Even if it's just a game.
      
Baron Von Schmidt
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 05:19
Man oh Man oh Man. What have all of you come to? I get sick of all the crap and leave....... the "crickets chirp"...... and things all go to heck.

I guess if Peter D.I.S. or The Baron aren't stirring things up then all of you who take a freaking board game so damn seriously have nothing better to do with your time than fight with each other over an interpretation of a rule! Pathetic. And this is coming from someone who never shied from an argument. Maybe you need Peter D.I.S. or The Baron's over the top personalities (at least those were ACTS and not meglomania) to give you something to concentrate on.

The personal attacks over a simple rule and who can play for who and what the NC "really is" and should be "really called"! Seriously! Take a few steps back, then take a few breaths and then try, really try to remember that no one outside of this community gives a rats ass how good a player you are or how your team does in the NC, There are no sponsors waiting to award million dollar contracts to the winners so they can wear the "Betty Crocker symbol on their jerseys" and there is NO CASH PRIZE for winning.

Thadd, you stay as TD. Anu you play for whatever team you want. SKM you stop acting like kid accuses Anu of acting, Erps you too. kid stop being such a wuss, you have always said you are the best so who cares who is on what team. kid, "bend over and take it" as you say then go make some more money on awesome stock picks and go get some action from your hot wife and play with your kids and try to remember what is really important in life.

Shamogi do your freakin site and don't get all disillusioned now after you were the main crux of my own.

Bassie, you seem like such an actual adult most of the time and yet you can't seem to forgive Peter for some stupid misunderstanding that he already has apologized for numerous times. Or are you just supporting "sweets?" Monika tells me she is a lovely person and that we are actually a lot alike and would probably really like each other if we met. Probably true but one big difference. I admit when I'm wrong and I can apologize and let things go. Sweets seems to be unable to do so in Peter's case or my own.

Yeah, I got pissed a few times I admit it. But I forgave bdh, Jac, and every other player. I'll even forgive CoolJ if he wants even after his very personal attacks.

So everyone shut the heck up and move on. The game and competition IS ENJOYABLE (who would dare use the word "fun" anymore) and the people here usually are as well but get a life. screw all this trying to decide if you can support the TD or not. You agreed to her before hand, no objections were raised THEN so "bend over and take it" anyone who doesn't agree. She made a decision, deal with it. If you can't support it, then either shut up and move forward or shut up and don't play in the tourney.

It aint the world series of Poker, but at least there people accept the decisions of the refs and act civil.

oh and I don't CARE about arguments about why one way or another is better. The rules are set, the TD is in place, you have a problem with something? Well then you should have figured it out when Erps wanted to and that would be several months ago.

and kid. If you go up for auction to the "highest bidder" don't be so surprised if no one shows up to the auction. There are things more important than winning (not to you, I am sure). In fact TD, I would like a ruling. Can we have thekid be on his very own team? He plays every match against every person the other team puts up. Then he won't have any scapegoats to blame and he won't have to criticize any teamates and it can be all kid all the time. Best of all if he wins then DOW only has to buy one game Twisted Evil

Onyx Puffin who has been a TRUE FRIEND throughout actually convinced me to come and play in the NC. I will honor that committment to a friend who although as religious as they come, realized what the leader of his church really means by "judge not".

seiously cannot believe that so many have taken what was to be a fun (oops excuse me) enjoyable little piece of competition and completely mangled it. May I suggest that all those on the side of letting the TD decision stand just not respond anymore? eventually even those who post 6 times in a row (in the same thread even!) will get tired of their own voice.


Baron (not peacemaker but at least rational this time around)[/SIZE]

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 05:21]

      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 07:01
[quote title=Baron Von Schmidt wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 23:19 Then he won't have any scapegoats to blame and he won't have to criticize any teamates and it can be all kid all the time. [/quote]

Thought you had read all of the prior posts, Baron. Must have convieniently forgotten this one from NC#1. I didn't, where are the scapegoats and the finger pointing at teammates? That has never happened. The finger is pointed and all the blame is directed right at me.

thekid wrote on Mon, 31 October 2005 11:53



I have been awful in this. Sorry to my teammates, I have cost us 3 points. We should have been there at the end. My fault.




Got any more lies you'd like to throw out there? Maybe you should just stick to being all of your aliases where you can steal points from people you don't like.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 07:07]

      
Baron Von Schmidt
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 08:50
well I've never "stolen" any points from you. And as has been mentioned several times I played you at least 3 games when your rating was 300 to 400 pts below where it should have been so when I won some of those I got less than I should have and when I lost some it took more than it should have. So if anyone has taken points that would be you. And the finger pointing was against one of your teamates from last year. I'm not saying you did it in the forum but you certainly said enough about him otherwise. So that isn't a lie is it now? Just like you accused me of lying before in my CoolJ post and yet there wasn't a lie there either.

Gee. So when you say you have never finger pointed or blamed a teamate and it "never happened" I guess that would be what.... a mistake? I'm sure at least Drake and several other of your teamates heard the great things you said about (who was it now....hmmmm Calif?) I know I certianly did.

You don't want to be accusing me of lying when you can't prove it. That is at least twice now and wrong both times.

So sad I have to address this, but you know and I know what you said about your "weak link" teamate. I happened to like the guy. Our team had a lot of actual FUN (o.k. o.k. so I said it, and I'm sticking to it!) last year even though we sucked it up. I don't think you enjoyed last years NC very much however. That is too bad. Your team got farther than ours but I just think you take it too seriously. If we don't win the NC this year, if we don't get into the quarter finals, I'll still have all the things that are really important to me and better yet, I'll LIKE and RESPECT all my teamates regardless of what their record is.

I truly hope most everyone else can do the same.

Now kid, don't spend any more time than you have going through 3 years of posts. I'll agree right now without reservation that at times I have been a butthole. I've also done stupid things also. I was rude to several people and I think I apologized in all of those (well, nearly all probably). That all part of maturity. Once the anger is gone, let logic and rational rule. Someday when you learn that maybe you can stop being thekid and become "a man"

Let it go.

Baron

      
DrakeStorm
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 10:03
First a question - did Captain's vote on a TD behind the scenes that I missed (and that's different than being appointed and no one complaining)? If so, then I think everyone should just play this year with the TD's decision, and just remember to vote for someone else next year. If not, we need to roll back the clocks and do it right (see my previous post with the 6 points schedule).


And now onto good old baron:

Baron Von Schmidt wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 23:50

Gee. So when you say you have never finger pointed or blamed a teamate and it "never happened" I guess that would be what.... a mistake? I'm sure at least Drake and several other of your teamates heard the great things you said about (who was it now....hmmmm Calif?) I know I certianly did.


I'm not defending thekid, but just wanted to say that I personally never heard anything bad about Calif from anyone on our team, or at least anything worse than what Calif said about himself. Calif was upset he was under-performing and basically in the later rounds said he didn't mind not playing. And we made it to the quarter-finals so that's all that was important. And losing the quarter-finals can only be blamed on the rest of us, since Calif didn't play.

I guess I'm the weak-link this year, bring on the finger pointing - I got thick skin I can take it! Does DoW even have any other good games? (DoW if you are reading this, its a joke, I still want a free game!)
      
Nayeli
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 12:07
[quote title=DrakeStorm schrieb am Mon, 27 August 2007 10:03]First a question - did Captain's vote on a TD behind the scenes that I missed (and that's different than being appointed and no one complaining)? If so, then I think everyone should just play this year with the TD's decision, and just remember to vote for someone else next year. If not, we need to roll back the clocks and do it right

I think the same. Why is it for the Captains and the TD not possible to fix a date to talk about that rule??


      
SKMorefield
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 13:34
If someone wants to run a 'Team Cup' later on, that is fine and I'm sure many would participate. The special thing about the NATION'S Cup, in my mind at least, is that it pits country vs country, in the spirit of Davis Cup or the Olympics or other transnational events in 'real' sports.

In a 'Team Cup' formation, let me ask you, who tends to be friends? Tops, that's who. Tops play tops, and obviously everyone knows I'm all for that. However, in the formation of teams this is hardly fair, because tops also associate with other tops and would, logically, tend to form teams together. As has been said before, why not a 'former #1's team'? Once you start going down this slippery slope, who knows what happens next!

The 'national' format and requirement keeps any 1 team from being completely overstacked. Sure, the Germans have an advantage, but what is the solution? For us, get more Americans playing and highly rated!! I wrote a post on BGG almost 2 years ago to this effect, and guess what? A player named Drakestorm read it and, although he played TTR already, decided to start learning an playing competitively. Voila, another American Top!

I'm sure other countries have stories like this also. Come, get good and play for your COUNTRY. Wow, what a concept. Sure, this is just a silly game, but this trans-national thing is NOT in the spirit of what I (and lots of others) perceived this event to be.

As erps mentioned before, look at the Spanish team. What a perfect example of the specialness of NC. Some high-ranked, some lower. Some of these players might be low-rated now, but they will gain valuable experience and learn, and have fun playing for their country.

Thadd did a GREAT job as TD last year, IMO. I implore her to do away with this trans-national thing and get back to the spirit of what NC should be.


Best,
Scott

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 13:51]

      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 14:25
Baron Von Schmidt wrote on Mon, 27 August 2007 02:50

Gee. So when you say you have never finger pointed or blamed a teamate and it "never happened" I guess that would be what.... a mistake? I'm sure at least Drake and several other of your teamates heard the great things you said about (who was it now....hmmmm Calif?) I know I certianly did.

You don't want to be accusing me of lying when you can't prove it. That is at least twice now and wrong both times.

So sad I have to address this, but you know and I know what you said about your "weak link" teamate. I happened to like the guy. Our team had a lot of actual FUN (o.k. o.k. so I said it, and I'm sticking to it!) last year even though we sucked it up. I don't think you enjoyed last years NC very much however. That is too bad. Your team got farther than ours but I just think you take it too seriously. If we don't win the NC this year, if we don't get into the quarter finals, I'll still have all the things that are really important to me and better yet, I'll LIKE and RESPECT all my teamates regardless of what their record is.





Hey Baron did calif lose in the quarterfinals (The ONLY Round that mattered). Answer = NO. I DID, and so did 3 others. So Baron you're right damn those 2 other teammates for not picking me up when I lost. It's all their fault. So you're so good with colors, fonts and screenshots, if you had something you'd have posted it.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 14:44]

      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 14:28
Hi

As always SKM is saying that what i mean with kind words. And Goscha brings the whole thing with the soccer analogy to the point.

Baron, it's funny that you, the player who was involved in 80% of all struggles in the last year, is talking of the voice of reason Wink And writing in such a discussion with a big font is shouting and against any netiquette. However you made your points and i understand them. I am willing to offer my tool for distributing, but i will not participate (btw i never said i am taking all my tools with me away, i am no longer interested in NC, big difference).

Nobody is reading the rules, because my complaints were absolutly okay and we HAD the time to change things, because the TD was not in charge till today:

bassie schrieb am Wed, 15 August 2007 15:44

Hi all,
Any comments from you can lead to changes in the information/rules until Sunday, the 26 of August. As of that date, I am back to player status and only our TD can make changes yet.



And found another funny quote:

thadd schrieb am Thu, 31 August 2006 16:35


Given the rules, the finnish-swiss team has also no right to exist.
So, as so far nobody complained about them, and now it's too late to complain, I will decide on monday about players, who weren't able to form a team (at the moment I am only aware of Peter, dave and geo).



So it was clear last year that Fin-Swiss was against the "unwritten" ethical rules for this tournament and this year it is okay to go even further. I completly say it like goscha. Five players should be the limit for TN teams or even better:

The Team Proposal (Edited)

Get all TN-players in one thread and then distribute them to the appropriate number of teams. Let's say you have 14 players, make 2 teams á 7. Do it now as in school or in the football rooster: Name 2 captains (the highest ranked players) and then let them choose one by one the players in the pool. First choice has the lowest ranked captain, then a double choice for the other and so on. No chance to get a ex-number one team by this. And still there will be friends playing together. After this every team can choose the "right" captain, because the highest ranked player may not willing to do so for personal reasons.

So now the X dutch players might offer themself in the TN Thread and maybe they will play together but i doubt that the other captain will not choose Anu (even better the captain will be Anu). The whole system works even better with more TN-Teams (say 3 or 4).

bye, erps

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 27 August 2007 15:11]

      
Mason68
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 14:53
Hi

I am first answering at the other thread about the ongoing discussion and afterwards i read this thread. I am wondering about the high emotions/ the strange behavior of some members of the community. I am missing the old times lol.

Yes, Erps, you are right. This could be a solution for the problem. I hope the others would be convinced of your proposel Razz

I don&acute;t want to have top-players-market. What was the result? 4 or 5 Teams with strong players and some "Alibi" other teams. No, this would be not a NC-Cup.

Bye
      
thadd
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Mon, 27 August 2007 15:42
I won't be doing this job, I don't like the way this discussion went, and for sure I dislike the tone and accusations in this discussion. I admit, that I did mistakes, but I am not here to get punched for them. My biggest mistake was that I didn't ask the community if they are ok with me as TD. I didn't take it for granted, but I assumed that there wouldn't be anybody else willing to do it, and as I won't be playing I just accepted.
It's nice to pick out posts erps from last year, but you didn't take the follow up of it, the rules say, that any country which can't form a team is allowed to join another country's team. You didn't change that over the past year, I don't mind it. I don't mind a lot of things, but I mind the way you and kid are talking about me without even listening to me. You both are convinced that you are the speaking wisdom of TTR.

You all think that my decision was biased, you are wrong. I may be called naive now, but I don't think that the dutch put together a conspiration in order to win this cup.
You still insist on the fact that I took the decision because of 'friendship', I hardly talk to anybody here, mainly 2 words in a game, which I play maybe once a week. The only real and dear friend I have out of this community isn't a player anymore since 1 year.

I am sorry for having caused all the trouble, I am sorry for those who just wanted a tournament and play their games and yes to have fun. And I am sorry that my own TTR experience ends this way after 3 years of dedicated membership.
I am sure you will find a solution, you can contact me to get the TD's pw.

bye and good luck






      
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