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Znapperhead
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  2-player games; take out Diplomat? Tue, 07 April 2009 22:03
In a 2-player game, player A has the Diplomat, and does'nt attack player B, declearing peace. So, B can't attack A until A attacks B.

For B to be able to attack A, B must go into decline. Since A could'nt attack B's active race (it was in decline), A cant' use the Diplomat - the deal is off.

B's new race, having not been attacked by A yet, attacks B's race, and (might) force A to go into decline.

Problem solved.

Or is it...? Anyone; is this how the Diplomat would work in a 2-player game? Confused
      
Elrad
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Tue, 07 April 2009 23:37
Hello,

Well, the question was asked in the french section and we have to admit that if "Diplomat" can be can be played, it will not be easy to deal with for the opponent. In the case you mention, it is quite difficult for B to find a way through and for A this is a gift. Diplomat is quite more difficult if A doesn't attack B and protect, by the same time, his in-decline-race areas...

Elrad

[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 07 April 2009 23:38]

      
Znapperhead
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Wed, 08 April 2009 10:12
Elrad wrote on Tue, 07 April 2009 23:37

Hello,

Well, the question was asked in the french section and we have to admit that if "Diplomat" can be can be played, it will not be easy to deal with for the opponent. In the case you mention, it is quite difficult for B to find a way through and for A this is a gift. Diplomat is quite more difficult if A doesn't attack B and protect, by the same time, his in-decline-race areas...

Elrad


But it is correct that after a decline periode, the "deal" of peace between A and B is off, and the new race can attack the Diplomat again?

I believe we would remove the Diplomat in a 2-player game.
      
Elrad
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Wed, 08 April 2009 11:25
Hello,

I'm not sure about it but I'd rather say that you're right because if I am right, "Diplomat" can only be used against an ennemy active race and only to this.

So as you are changing your combo and playing your new race for the first time, this brakes the Diplomat power in some way, but nevertheless the other player can still use his power on his turn to block you and you will just have to go in decline again and again and that will be boring for you to play.

I think that remove Diplomat in 1 vs 1 games is the right thing to do as long as you are playing to have fun and not to have to dea with difficulties every turn. And on a logical view, It is quite strange for that kind of game to use of Diplomacy in 1 vs 1 games...that's only my point of view.

Elrad (sorry for possible mistakes)

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 08 April 2009 11:26]

      
metteB
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Thu, 09 April 2009 18:16
Make sense to take out the Diplomat

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 09 April 2009 18:17]

      
Znapperhead
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Thu, 09 April 2009 18:17
Excellent. Thank you
      
cr697
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Mon, 20 April 2009 00:11
Don't take it out. When you play against a diplomat, go in decline and make sure to come in on the next turn by trumping on him. Your new race is not bound to him yet so you can try killing him a few territories. Problem solved.
      
Kenneth_Gray
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Mon, 20 April 2009 14:49
I have to agree with cr697. I played a two player game with the Diplomat in and the game was still as close as ever.

Remember with the Diplomat that not only are you not able to attack them, but only if they don't attack you, so therefore you're bound to not attack each other until the diplomatic race has done so.

Also, if in the first turn, the first player picks diplomatic, they can't choose you, because you don't have an active race yet.

All in all it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
      
TDiggity
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Thu, 30 April 2009 04:28
Kenneth_Gray wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 07:49


Also, if in the first turn, the first player picks diplomatic, they can't choose you, because you don't have an active race yet.




I do not think this is true.

Per rules as written:

The diplomat CAN choose you because he did not attack your active race.

The fact you do not have an active race is irrelevant.

-T
      
stevecjsimon
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Sat, 09 May 2009 20:38
Can we get confirmation from DoW on this?

Is the player with Diplomat able to only target players with a currently active race?

I've played this way, as the word WHOSE in the rules seems to denote possession ("You may select one opponent WHOSE active race you did not attack this turn"), i.e. if I am in decline, I have no active race.

Thanks!
      
Magnot
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Sat, 09 May 2009 21:23
On Board Game Geek somebody posted with an official confirmation: you can in fact "ally" with somebody who doesn't have an active race. TDiggity is correct.

You can peruse the thread via this link. The answer is near the bottom:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/404623

edit: Also refer to the Rules Clarifications sticky at the top of the forum.

[Aktualisiert am: Sat, 09 May 2009 21:35]

      
**player38092
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Tue, 12 May 2009 19:56
If your 2 player opponent has a Diplomat, develop your race somewhere else on the board...
I am quite sure that his race with Diplomat capacity will have to go into decline at some time anyway.

Other strategy : develop your active race in the way of the Diplomat's most interesting "conquest avenue". If he makes peace with you, he blocks his conquest possibilities...

Diplomat is surely a powerfull ability in a 2-player game, but one can use the abovementioned countermeasures to reduce the interest of using it...
      
Azath0th
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Sun, 14 September 2014 11:58
My wife and I were tryng a 1vs1 game and I chose to pick the diplomat sorcerer as my 2nd race. I managed to conquer 2/3 of the map by attacking and transforming the declined ratmen she chose first, including all borders, leaving her only the 2-3 territories by the sea on the right side of the map where she has her tritons.

Now what? I own almos all the map and I can just sit and wait? Her only option is to take her 2nd race into decline too?
But then, she can only attack her own declined triton?

How does this one resolves?

Am I forced to attack her the next turn?
I assume we can't pass in this game since the rules says your can either conquer or go in decline.

...???

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 14 September 2014 12:02]

      
AngryMarine
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Sun, 14 September 2014 13:15
@Azath0th

The situation you are describing is the best case scenario for your Diplomat combo on the two player map. It is usually a winning condition if you achieve it during your first seven turns.

A player who chooses Diplomat must aim at implementing this strategy, because it is the easiest way to win with Diplomat on the two player map. The second player must do his best not to allow the Diplomat player make it happen.

The winner in this game is usually the player who has more tokens. Thus, Diplomat Dwarves will have no chances against, say, Forrest Amazons.

There are a lot of remedies against Diplomat on the two player map:

1) Ghouls. They can attack being in decline.

2) Flying, Underground, Catapult. Those things are hard to be surrounded and can spread as fast as Diplomat or even faster, depending on the combo. (Flying Tritons will spread faster than Diplomat Wizards because of the attack bonus.)

3) Barricade, Peace Loving, Alchemists, Merchant, Aquatic. These Special Powers can be very helpful in the late game, as they can bring more coins than Diplomat without much spreading.

In general, the more expansions you have, the easier to deal with Diplomat, but of course there are situations when nothing can be done with it, depending on the combo layout.

Many players remove Diplomat from the two player game because they think that it makes the game broken. I, on the contrary, think that Diplomat is tons of fun! In fact, Diplomat alone could be a separate expansion, because it makes you play by a different strategy than usual.

I have already expressed my pity in the Digital forum on the matter of removing Diplomat from the two player mode of the digital game. Days of Wonder did it, because there had been a lot of complaints from immature players, and in spite of the fact that the designer of the game himself meant Diplomat for the two player map as well as for all the other maps.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 14 September 2014 13:34]

      
blaxnlion
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Sun, 14 September 2014 19:52
I think there is a global misunderstanding from the beginning. Diplomat can be used against a player and not just an active race. Then, even if Ghouls can attack a Diplomat race while in decline, if the Diplomat player picks the player that just declined, this player will still not be able to attack him when he picks his new race, with this new race. So even if a player declines, the deal is not off. Not if the Diplomat picks again after declining.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 14 September 2014 19:54]

      
AngryMarine
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Sun, 14 September 2014 20:02
@blaxnlion
Yes, you are quite right!
Diplomat is used against a player and in this case he (or she) cannot attack the Diplomat Race with his active race, even if he (or she) has just picked it after declining.
      
Od-ah-viing
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Mon, 13 October 2014 18:11
I have played Small World 2 (digital version) for less than two months, so I have never really tried a 2p game with diplomatic races. Yet I can understand why there are so many people don't like diplomats in their 2p games, based on my gaming experience.

Everyone knows diplomats are overpowered - like many other killer combos. IMO, however, don't think this is the prime reason why diplomats should be banned.

Let's name a few OP combos: mount skeletons are powerful; marauding skeletons are formidable. Commando pixies are hard to deal with. In-decline ghouls, plus any active races, are my least favourite opponenets, unless my opponent are stupid enough to choose dwarves or white ladies Very Happy

However, these combos are powerful only when they are deployed in the right way - you have to defend your skeleton army before they can outnumber your opponent; your pixies are vulnerable in defense so you have to make sure you won't be ransacked/pillaged/berserk-ed too much. Decline ghouls often cost you two rounds of low score, so you have to choose your second race wisely and make sure you won't decline again in a few rounds!

These combos give you an edge over your opponent but you still have to think a lot to maximize your advantage. Diplomats, however, does not require too much thinking - keep expand and path-blocking. That's no fun all.

Playing against diplomats can be fun and challenging - as angrymarine has mentioned, there are many strategies to fight against diplomats. However, playing with diplomats are monotonous enough that you can use the same "strategy" 100 times to score 80+ with ease. Doesn't it kills the fun?
      
AngryMarine
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Re:2-player games; take out Diplomat? Mon, 13 October 2014 20:37
@Od-ah-viing
I am glad you agree that playing against Diplomat can be fun! I have heard tons of complaints about Diplomat here, and all of them were about playing against Diplomat.

I cannot say that Diplomat does not require skill at all, if you get a good opponent with a good combo, you can easily lose, it happened many-many times to me.

Anyway, I agree that playing Diplomat is much less fun than playing against Diplomat on the two player map. But, if you make everything correct, victory will be your reward.
      
    
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