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Sysyphus - Pommard
Nachrichten: 3449
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December 2007
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2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Fri, 15 November 2013 07:17
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Hi guys,
2013 is on its way out, time to think of 2014.
Summary of the year :
Better turnouts in SPWC series tournaments.
Creation of Fusion and Multi Euro championship with dandee's help.
NC had a nice competitive Round Robin, and numerous new players.
Creation of the Tournament Elo.
Goals for next year
Getting the same turnout in SPWC series
Put the back league as a central event in the year, increase its turnout. Improve its interest, prestige and competitiveness.
Use Telo as a reference.
Keep Improving the consistency of the calendar.
Topic of discussions :
Finalizing the final format of the league
Switch SPWC series to swiss style.
About the calendar itself :
Elric suggested a hierarchy, that I adapted a bit :
Premium events :
NC - SPWC/EMC - League
Other Main Events :
Fusion - Multi US (MPWC)
Secondary events :
SMC - AMC - Multi Euro
Goodies
FUN - AAT - QT
Nations Cup and SPWC/EMC needs a space dedicated in the calendar due to their importance.
League will go on through the year and can overlap.
It could be better to put AMC and SMC (swiss style) in February so that players can train if need be. Organizing those tournaments away from SPWC and EMC would maybe boost the interest.
The relevancy of an AAT tournament is to be questionned (bet Drake will object  but hey man, I talk about your TELO and promote your MVP!), since the same 12/15 players have played it and the same 4/6 have reached the semis every year. It could free up some space. At worse in July/August.
Drake offered to organize an MVP tournament at the end of the year (like a Final Four, one on US Map, a second on EuroMap). It would gather the winner of SPWC/EMC, the winner of the League + the top 2 Telo (if not top 2 of the league).
That would also work for the Euro map.
It would a fun way to finish the year !
My proposal is the following :
January MPWC Finals League
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February AMC/SMC League
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March Fusion League
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April Fusion League
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May SPWC/EMC (mid-may) League
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June SPWC/EMC EuroLeague
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July EuroLeague
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August EuroLeague
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September NC EuroLeague
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October NC
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November NC MPWC
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Decemeber MPWC MVP US MVP Euro
It is important to release TELO standings as often as possible (after every tournament) to make it interesting and useful.
Ticki is a concern though... Hope it will be fixed at some point.
Any comment, proposal is more than welcome.
[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 15 November 2013 07:43]
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dandee
Nachrichten: 990
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November 2008
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Fri, 15 November 2013 11:18
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thx for all
but Multi Euro is not in your proposal ?
dan 
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Qorlas
Nachrichten: 2028
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January 2008
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Fri, 15 November 2013 11:52
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Should be just after the end Multi USA. Probably just forgot out 
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Sysyphus - Pommard
Nachrichten: 3449
Registriert:
December 2007
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Fri, 15 November 2013 15:47
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I just did not want to impose a date on you dan !
Choose what's best for you
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onyx puffin LOL
Nachrichten: 1542
Registriert:
January 2005
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Fri, 15 November 2013 17:30
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I question the hierarchy and if League is really a premium event.
It is a minor point, but premium I think gives it too much weight. Since League happens all the time, the premium nature of it is highly suspect. I am not saying it is not a good activity, but a premium activity? Not much interest paid by people outside the people playing their match. It is not like people observe a league match, or try to tune in.
In my opinion, League is more something that keeps a competitive edge for those who need games between tournaments to have more meaning. it should be moved down to Other Main events. (and personal bias may be that Fusion Cup should maybe be popped up higher, as certainly it is at least as high as League)
(Hmmmm, I read note directly below from Qorlas, and see it could become premium, but putting it there is premature.)
[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 15 November 2013 17:36]
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Qorlas
Nachrichten: 2028
Registriert:
January 2008
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Fri, 15 November 2013 17:33
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League is becoming one season per year competition... a long competition but one per year, so it is going to be different from having multiple seasons and multiple champs.
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dandee
Nachrichten: 990
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November 2008
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Fri, 15 November 2013 18:12
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| Sysyphus - Pommard wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 15:47 |
I just did not want to impose a date on you dan !
Choose what's best for you
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for me no problem
1) February.
There is a league and 2 SP tournament.
2) As the last year
1/2 group in july
1/2 in august
Final in september before nc.
Only Euro League Tournament.
I think that is good idea.
And big holidays are saved.
It is important to start first with the organization
cu
dan
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Sysyphus - Pommard
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FLOP_dea1
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September 2005
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Fri, 15 November 2013 20:18
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Please upgrade Fusion to premium (maybe that also helps to get the "DOW achievement" for it & for the CLs we had )
Why should the team event where everybody has equal chances of success regardless of nationality be worth less than the one that many good players know they can never win?
I'm still not convinced that longer League with bigger groups is a good idea (see also Wildfire's arguments).
Could we maybe get the details on the new League plans and then have a vote who prefers
a) the new version
b) the old version with 2 seasons per year in the same combined timeframe - maybe US-EU-US-EU
(and who would play what)?
For the League groups (however big they shall be) I think Hecki definitely has a valid point. Somebody who has played in A for quite a while should clearly have a right to be in the best group, whatever his T-ELO may be.
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FLOP_dea1
Nachrichten: 2282
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September 2005
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Fri, 15 November 2013 20:29
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| Sysyphus - Pommard schrieb am Fri, 15 November 2013 18:40 |
SPWC = your opponent is getting stronger and stronger. But the chance of playing more than 2 or 3 top 20 TELO are pretty limited.
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Only if you are a Top ...
Otherwise you start with a top 20 opponent, and in case you survive that you get the next of those.
If it's changed to Swiss, Tops will start against a weak player then get mainly other tops, weaker players will start against a top and then continue mainly against players of their own strength.
One more remark on Swiss (I mentioned that already in a previous discussion): Please let the games count, not only the match results.
Meaning: If we play 6 games/match after the first round you can have 0, 0.5, 1, ... 5.5, 6 points, not just 0 (losing the match), 0.5 (tie), 1 (win).
Reason: Better spread and a better chance to recover from a (close) loss.
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Sysyphus - Pommard
Nachrichten: 3449
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FLOP_dea1
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September 2005
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Fri, 15 November 2013 21:02
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| Sysyphus - Pommard schrieb am Fri, 15 November 2013 20:34 |
I have no problem with a vote (but would a potential 10-person vote be relevant?)
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Combine the vote with the registration?
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League, next season, signup thread:
Explanation and timeline version 1
Explanation and timeline version 2
I register for (you can register for both versions or just for one of them)
Version 1 (if that is chosen) yes/no
Version 2 (if that is chosen) yes/no
I generally prefer version 1/2
At the deadline we count the registration for Version 1 vs Version 2 and the preferences.
In case the number of players is clearly higher (let's say more than 5 participants difference?) for a certain version, this one is it.
In case the numbers are pretty much equal but the preferences are clearly higher for a certain version, let the preferences decide.
In case both is pretty much equal take the new version (showing respect for those, who worked it out).
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Crazy idea? I think it could work - in case it does, you definitely get all the relevant votes, not just 10.
[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 15 November 2013 21:03]
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DrakeStorm
Nachrichten: 1049
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March 2006
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Sat, 16 November 2013 02:02
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I think from all the behind the scenes talking, longer/larger League was basically already voted for. I personally prefer more leagues/smaller groups and then have some sort of playoff, but I have been told that is an American way of thinking and since most players are European we will try their way!
As for Permier Events, I think it is just terminology, since for me the premier events are the ones with the higher "k-factor" for T-ELO. Right now for USA map stuff, we have NC and SPWC highest, then League, then other things. For other maps, highest is Fusion and EMC/AMC etc., then other events.
Hopefully we can try a swiss-style event for SPWC/EMC/AMC, but as for having games counts, not just match result, it will really depend on the pairing software we use. I couldn't find any free software that would work prefect for TTR, but I found one that would work good enough for our first time.
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BTB Cromze
Nachrichten: 499
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September 2009
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Sat, 16 November 2013 03:16
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Well sorry to come up with another new idea that may have nothing to do in that discussion...
This is the "SUNDAY MULTI" concept, thought about it since I played both league and MPWC...
I've heard about schedule issues during MPWC and the forthcoming "one season by year league".
Why not replace MPWC by a Multi US League ?
The idea :
- Multi US League is open during non premium events.
- One season by year.
- Like league and MPWC, some groups with 6-7-8 or more players
- Each sunday between 17:00 and 23:00 CET, players from same groups can schedule games to play US multis (according to their availabilities = 6 sundays a year ?)
- No limits of game by player, just a minimum games have to be played (15 for example)
- Ranking in each group is determined by games won (points like MPWC) / games played. Some players or groups can play 232 games if they want.
- Relegation from a year to another like league.
This is the basic idea. Sunday could be monday ! Signing up players confirm they are mostly available to play on sunday/monday.
As regular multi player, I'd enjoy to play competitive multi games all year, not only during MPWChristmasChampionship...
Not sure how it would work with TELO and no intention to bury MEMC (I enjoyed it this year).
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Qorlas
Nachrichten: 2028
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January 2008
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Sat, 16 November 2013 22:27
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In Summer there is also AAT no?
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AGT-Schachus
Nachrichten: 129
Registriert:
November 2005
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Sun, 17 November 2013 20:20
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Hi,
I don't really understand the reasoning behind saying, that Swiss-style SPWC would be ok, but only, if game wins count instead of matchwins. If we had a swiss with matchwins counting, you would probably(depending on the number of rounds) have to win every match to win the tournament(maybe you can afford one draw). So basically, this is the same as Knockout, except the players that were "knocked out" before can keep playing(without realistic chances to win the event).
If we count game wins, problem is with possible forfeited games(a player does not show up anymore).How should it be counted?If it is 6-0(or how_many_games_there_might_be-0), then you could make a big jump with such a win in the last round. If its not, you did not have the Chance to get a result as good as you might have gotten with a real match.
The other issue is about being lower in the Rankings and getting an "easy" opponent you can beat 6-0 or whatever might mix up rankings. I don't think this is too much of a problem though, there probably wont be any "easy" opponents
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DrakeStorm
Nachrichten: 1049
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March 2006
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Mon, 18 November 2013 03:42
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| Schachus wrote on Sun, 17 November 2013 11:20 |
Hi,
I don't really understand the reasoning behind saying, that Swiss-style SPWC would be ok, but only, if game wins count instead of matchwins. If we had a swiss with matchwins counting, you would probably(depending on the number of rounds) have to win every match to win the tournament(maybe you can afford one draw). So basically, this is the same as Knockout, except the players that were "knocked out" before can keep playing(without realistic chances to win the event).
If we count game wins, problem is with possible forfeited games(a player does not show up anymore).How should it be counted?If it is 6-0(or how_many_games_there_might_be-0), then you could make a big jump with such a win in the last round. If its not, you did not have the Chance to get a result as good as you might have gotten with a real match.
The other issue is about being lower in the Rankings and getting an "easy" opponent you can beat 6-0 or whatever might mix up rankings. I don't think this is too much of a problem though, there probably wont be any "easy" opponents
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If we run a swiss-style tournament you will most likely still have a chance to win with 1-2 losses. The tournament will run enough rounds so that happens. It will depend if we cut to a top 8 or a top 4 or something else.
I don't think games won would ever be the first stat used for pairing of each round it would be match win, and then maybe game wons as a tie breaker.
There should be no forfeited games, everyone will have option to drop from tournament before a new round starts.
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FLOP Hecki
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October 2005
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Mon, 18 November 2013 04:12
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| ATN Drake schrieb am Mon, 18 November 2013 03:42 |
There should be no forfeited games, everyone will have option to drop from tournament before a new round starts.
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And i bet there will be many forfeits. What if players can't find a date - or if they cause the same time problems like in every other tournament? Why should they be more gentle in this tournament?
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dandee
Nachrichten: 990
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November 2008
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Mon, 18 November 2013 10:26
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i re-post my first idea:
WORLD LEAGUE TOURNAMENT
We 6-7 times of the year where do 6-7 tournaments.
We use the same method of tennis.
We can call the tournaments at Wimbledon and Roland Garros with the names of ticket city.Es: Houston, Palermo, Zurich
4 usa
2 europe
1 swiss or asia
At least 16 players for the tournament.If you enter more players in the preliminary rounds as individual tournament
The first tournament the draw is based on Elo rating list of the three specialty.
From the second the tournament draw is based on the World League Tournament.
If you sign up new players start in the preliminary rounds.
There is no limit to the number of players.
Only limit over 1500 or players who normally play tournaments
Matches from 7 meetings as nc
This idea has the advantage of simplifying the formula of the League which is sometimes too long.
And can entice new players to join.
Scores.
250 winner
150 finalist
90 Semifinalist
45 Second round
20 First round
10 preliminary
You can also think about tournaments with different formula (more or less players) with several victory points.
As in tennis the difference between Wimbledon and Montreal.
We have an annual ranking of the World League Tournament with a final winner.
From the second year the draw of first tournament will follow the final rankings of the previous year.
We can also devise a final Masters tournament with the best 8 players in the standings at the end of the year.
cu
dan
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Elric - Sancerre
Nachrichten: 1881
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May 2005
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Thu, 28 November 2013 22:04
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Sorry to answer a bit late, but better late than never
So, I insist once again, about the month of November : I don't think it's a very good idea to start MPWC too early, when NC Playoffs begin with so many players still involved.
I'd suggest that MPWC shouldn't become before mid-November (end should be even better, maybe), because NC finishes around mid-December. See below :
Sysy's proposal - with my adds for November and December :
January MPWC Finals League
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February AMC/SMC League
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March Fusion League
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April Fusion League
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May SPWC/EMC (mid-May) League
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June SPWC/EMC EuroLeague
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July EuroLeague
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August EuroLeague
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September NC EuroLeague
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October NC
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November NC MPWC (mid-Nov)
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December NC(mid-D) MPWC MVP US MVP Euro
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Elric - Sancerre
Nachrichten: 1881
Registriert:
May 2005
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Thu, 28 November 2013 22:20
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About hierarchy of events, it depends if you talk about the "k-factor" (Drake's words to represent standard of skills involved) or about the crowd around... it's not always the same.
NC and SPWC are our higher annual events because of both, obviously.
But about "k-factor", I still think (but after all my opinion could be a bit distorter ) that the level required in US map tournaments is far higher than in other maps. That's why we could put TTR League high too.
But if you consider a team event, there is automatically more spectators, because of teammates, and sometimes other players of other teams involved by a Group result. That's why we could put Fusion Cup high too (even after one year only !).
Anyway, this debate is endless and a bit subjective, but not so important for our reflexions about calendar.
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Sysyphus - Pommard
Nachrichten: 3449
Registriert:
December 2007
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Fri, 29 November 2013 06:02
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An updated suggestion for calendar.
Did not want to spend time merging pictures
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AWT Morientes ZL
Nachrichten: 446
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December 2012
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Sat, 14 December 2013 16:00
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What about multi Legendary Asia as same date as multi EU?
I think it will be very interesting for 14-21 players (2 -3 group).
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RUS Will
Nachrichten: 401
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June 2010
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Tue, 17 December 2013 01:09
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Completely agree with morientes
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Sysyphus - Pommard
Nachrichten: 3449
Registriert:
December 2007
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Tue, 17 December 2013 07:52
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Well, I wonder if it's not best to have single-night events all through the year in multis.
5 players gather a night :
THey play 2 5ers, 4 4ers (a different player sits every match)
4 players gather a night :
They play 5 4ers.
Players can choose the map.
Data is going into Multi Telo by games.
Best 5 players in the MultiTELO ranking, who played at least 4 or 5 single night events in the year, compete for the final single event, let's say in January 2015.
Advantadge :
No more registration, nor time constraints. Just one thread for each map to schedule or post results if people find each other in the lobby.
No more scheduling headaches : you play with whoever is available
Format is easy maintenance, and promotes consistency over a good streak
Drawback :
It requires a bit of regularmaintenance on TELO. I'll be probably too busy myself with the TELO 2p. If anybody volunteers, Drake (if Drake does not scare you) or I can explain the process.
[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 17 December 2013 07:55]
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Elric - Sancerre
Nachrichten: 1881
Registriert:
May 2005
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Thu, 19 December 2013 00:55
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| Cromze écrit le Sat, 16 November 2013 03:16 |
Well sorry to come up with another new idea that may have nothing to do in that discussion...
This is the "SUNDAY MULTI" concept, thought about it since I played both league and MPWC...
I've heard about schedule issues during MPWC and the forthcoming "one season by year league".
Why not replace MPWC by a Multi US League ?
The idea :
- Multi US League is open during non premium events.
- One season by year.
- Like league and MPWC, some groups with 6-7-8 or more players
- Each sunday between 17:00 and 23:00 CET, players from same groups can schedule games to play US multis (according to their availabilities = 6 sundays a year ?)
- No limits of game by player, just a minimum games have to be played (15 for example)
- Ranking in each group is determined by games won (points like MPWC) / games played. Some players or groups can play 232 games if they want.
- Relegation from a year to another like league.
This is the basic idea. Sunday could be monday ! Signing up players confirm they are mostly available to play on sunday/monday.
As regular multi player, I'd enjoy to play competitive multi games all year, not only during MPWChristmasChampionship...
Not sure how it would work with TELO and no intention to bury MEMC (I enjoyed it this year).
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| Sysyphus - Pommard écrit le Tue, 17 December 2013 07:52 |
Well, I wonder if it's not best to have single-night events all through the year in multis.
5 players gather a night :
THey play 2 5ers, 4 4ers (a different player sits every match)
4 players gather a night :
They play 5 4ers.
Players can choose the map.
Data is going into Multi TELO by games.
Best 5 players in the Multi TELO ranking, who played at least 4 or 5 single night events in the year, compete for the final single event, let's say in January 2015.
Advantadge :
* No more registration, nor time constraints. Just one thread for each map to schedule or post results if people find each other in the lobby.
* No more scheduling headaches : you play with whoever is available
* Format is easy maintenance, and promotes consistency over a good streak
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Maybe these 2 proposals could be mixed up, cause they don't seem so far away ?
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Sysyphus - Pommard
Nachrichten: 3449
Registriert:
December 2007
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AWT Morientes ZL
Nachrichten: 446
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December 2012
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Sun, 22 December 2013 22:27
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I will have more time from 1 to 13 january and can do Asia or Eu multi TELO or both of it. But i need know rules and details. Please send me a pm. Thx
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Sysyphus - Pommard
Nachrichten: 3449
Registriert:
December 2007
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THEBEEF
Nachrichten: 176
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July 2009
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Mon, 23 December 2013 10:17
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Bonjour,
I suppose that you have already asked DOW that it supplies you a way to reach their data.
The results of the games with the name of the game, the map played, the name of the players and the date, does not seem to me to be very sensitive data.
It would be interesting to codify the name of the game to extract more easily those who interest you.
You can try to request their scrum Master, Brice. !!!!!
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BTB Cromze
Nachrichten: 499
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September 2009
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Mon, 23 December 2013 17:57
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I can give some help for Multi TELO.
BUT I'm quite bad with statistics and have only low basis with Excel... I could still give some time to make the data copy-pasting, should not be that complicated
Another point, I don't really know how works the current multi TELO but I think the games won should not be the only factor : you can win a multi tourney without winning a lot of games if you're regularly 2nd...
I won't be on the internet very much this week, let's discuss about this in 2014 ! Julien you have my mail !
Merry Xmas all !
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V a l
Nachrichten: 458
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April 2008
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Mon, 23 December 2013 18:49
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| Cromze wrote on Sat, 16 November 2013 04:16 |
Well sorry to come up with another new idea that may have nothing to do in that discussion...
This is the "SUNDAY MULTI" concept, thought about it since I played both league and MPWC...
I've heard about schedule issues during MPWC and the forthcoming "one season by year league".
Why not replace MPWC by a Multi US League ?
The idea :
- Multi US League is open during non premium events.
- One season by year.
- Like league and MPWC, some groups with 6-7-8 or more players
- Each sunday between 17:00 and 23:00 CET, players from same groups can schedule games to play US multis (according to their availabilities = 6 sundays a year ?)
- No limits of game by player, just a minimum games have to be played (15 for example)
- Ranking in each group is determined by games won (points like MPWC) / games played. Some players or groups can play 232 games if they want.
- Relegation from a year to another like league.
This is the basic idea. Sunday could be monday ! Signing up players confirm they are mostly available to play on sunday/monday.
As regular multi player, I'd enjoy to play competitive multi games all year, not only during MPWChristmasChampionship...
Not sure how it would work with TELO and no intention to bury MEMC (I enjoyed it this year).
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I like this idea.
Very close to my former suggestion about open multi tournament. Meaning same as Cromze here, but no groups, no signing up, just players in the lobby wanna play competitive multi agree on it and send scores in Multitournee thread. Table updated and minimum number of games set to proceed in playoffs.
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DrakeStorm
Nachrichten: 1049
Registriert:
March 2006
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Mon, 23 December 2013 21:15
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| Cromze wrote on Mon, 23 December 2013 08:57 |
Inother point, I don't really know how works the current multi TELO but I think the games won should not be the only factor : you can win a multi tourney without winning a lot of games if you're regularly 2nd!
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If you read anything about TELO and "games" won, it is in contrast to "matches" won. There are no matches in multi tournaments, so "games" won is used.
However, that doesn't mean 1st place only. It is done exactly how DoW does multi - basically breaks down a multi game into a bunch of games, so 1st place in a 4 player multi, means Player 1 beat Player 2,3,4 (so 3 wins), Player 2 beat Player 3,4 (So 2 wins and 1 loss), etc.
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Sysyphus - Pommard
Nachrichten: 3449
Registriert:
December 2007
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Mon, 23 December 2013 21:35
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| V a l wrote on Mon, 23 December 2013 10:49 |
Very close to my former suggestion about open multi tournament. Meaning same as Cromze here, but no groups, no signing up, just players in the lobby wanna play competitive multi agree on it and send scores in Multitournee thread. Table updated and minimum number of games set to proceed in playoffs.
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Without any frame, players may throw any random multi in the thread. And we would end up with :
1) Tons of data
2) An ELO in the end pretty similar to DoW.
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Qorlas
Nachrichten: 2028
Registriert:
January 2008
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Re:2014 Competitions : Discussion
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Mon, 30 December 2013 10:50
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In my opinion we can try quick multi tournaments but at the same way wew have to keep alive Multi USA and Multi Euro.
Remind that we had the Speedy tournaments in the past and after few editions people lost interest in them. For me, to keep longer structurred tournaments is safer.
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