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VerfasserThema
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A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 25 September 2014 02:18
Can a Finnish Ski Troop be equipped with a SWA? I am working on an Winter War scenario where three units of ski troops are equipped with mortars. Would this be wrong?

Would the mortars fire at 3-2-1 like standard SWA mortars, or 3-2 like ski troops?

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/Memoir%2044/IMG_1091_zpsf50eca8b.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/Memoir%2044/IMG_1079_zpsbf8512f9.jpg

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 28 September 2014 16:22]

      
sam1812
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 25 September 2014 03:18
Technically, if you're making up the scenario, you can equip ski troops with whatever you want. Smile

I would assume that the logic behind ski troops' normal 3-2-0 is that they're just skiing around with rifles on their backs and nothing heavier. If you were to give them a mortar, I would assume that it can fire like a regular mortar, 3-2-1-1.

But if it's late war, I'd assume that any battle would be 3-2-0.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 25 September 2014 04:48
Don't forget that because there are no official scenarios with this combination you won't get an official answer. So like Sam said, it's your choice.
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 25 September 2014 05:04
You should probably research use of mortars by ski troops.

Finnish troops would most likely use an 81mm mortar weighing between 55-60 kg. so, potentially could be carried by ski troops, with shells probably the heavy load in any numbers. A light mortar would not operate effectively in heavy snow.

Russian ski troops I think had 3 companies of infantry and 1company of mortars.

But I bet it's more likely mortars and shells were pulled on sleds.

Of course, Memoir units are very abstract so you can set whatever rules you want.
      
JJAZ
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 25 September 2014 07:13
So next we need sleds, with Christmas coming soon they be handy Razz
      
Quit2
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 25 September 2014 09:21
My answer before D-Day landings:

No. Not as the game is.
A unit in memoir can have up to one badge only. Either the unit has a Ski troop badge, or it has a SWA badge. It doesn't matter that you can use EP figures for it, you have to be able to make it with badges too.
Of course, you are free to do what you want at your home, and can play with any house rule you want, as long as it is clear for both players at the start of the game.

My answer after D-Day landings:
Since paratroopers can be equipped with SWAs in D-Day landings, I see no reason why not. If a unit can have a paratrooper badge and a SWA badge, it can surely have a ski-troop and SWA badge as well.
Just be sure to precise in the rules how the unit moves and fires. (like for the paras in D-Day: if they move, they fire like elite troops, and if they don't move, they fire with the bonus of the SWA.)

For ski troops, I'd imagine something like:
Early war mortar and ski troop
- Moves 0-3
OR
- battles 3-2-1
- Ignores LOS and terrain protections

May retreat 1-3 hexes on flag
3 figures only

Late war mortar and ski troop
- Moves 1-3 and battles 3-2
OR
- moves 0 and battles 3-2-1-1
- ignores LOS and terrain protections

Move onto any terrain and may still battle, but must still obey terrain movement restrictions.
May retreat 1-3 hexes on flag
3 figures only
      
Quit2
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 25 September 2014 09:29
After checking the rules on early war SWA:
The compendium card for early war mortar does not say it battles 3-2-1, but says it battles like the unit it equips, with the added bonus of ignoring LOS and terrain protections.
So contrary to what I wrote above, early war ski troop SWA would battle 3-2, ignore LOS and terrain protections and only if they didn't move.
So depending on how many firing into and over terrain you plan on doing, the SWA might be more of a hindrance than a bonus.
      
sam1812
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 25 September 2014 13:49
Quit2 wrote on Thu, 25 September 2014 03:29

After checking the rules on early war SWA:
The compendium card for early war mortar does not say it battles 3-2-1, but says it battles like the unit it equips, with the added bonus of ignoring LOS and terrain protections.
So contrary to what I wrote above, early war ski troop SWA would battle 3-2, ignore LOS and terrain protections and only if they didn't move.
So depending on how many firing into and over terrain you plan on doing, the SWA might be more of a hindrance than a bonus.

Mortars normally battle 3-2-1-1, ignoring LOS and terrain protections. [Edit: See below.]

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 26 September 2014 02:31]

      
50th
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 25 September 2014 14:35
Thanks for your answers. Early war mortar fires like the unit it equips as per SWA #3. The exception being that when it fires, it ignores Los and terrain protection. So I think the mortars in my scenario will fire 3,2 like the ski troops they equip.
      
Quit2
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 25 September 2014 17:59
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 25 September 2014 13:49

Quit2 wrote on Thu, 25 September 2014 03:29

After checking the rules on early war SWA:
The compendium card for early war mortar does not say it battles 3-2-1, but says it battles like the unit it equips, with the added bonus of ignoring LOS and terrain protections.
So contrary to what I wrote above, early war ski troop SWA would battle 3-2, ignore LOS and terrain protections and only if they didn't move.
So depending on how many firing into and over terrain you plan on doing, the SWA might be more of a hindrance than a bonus.

Mortars normally battle 3-2-1-1, ignoring LOS and terrain protections.


http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_swa_3.jpg

So 50th, your mortar ski troops will have the bonus to ignore LOS and terrain protections, but in return loose their ability to move 3 AND battle, something they can even do when they moved into terrain, and they also loose the ability to take ground. I'm not sure it's actually a bonus for them to have the SWA, but that can be a valid design choice.

The Finish ski troops had machine guns set up on sleds, so that they would be ready to fire immediately, without the traditional setup time for the early war machine guns. I don't know if they did the same with mortars, but it could be easily conceivable that they would. This could make for a scenario specific rule that allows them to fire even after moving. This is entirely up to you as a designer.
      
sam1812
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Fri, 26 September 2014 02:31
Well, that's interesting. How did I never notice that? Thanks.
      
Jeronimon
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Fri, 26 September 2014 06:51
I would rather go for the late war card then:

http://cdn0.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_compendium_swa_6.jpg

Stationary 3-2-1-1 firing and ignoring terrain battle protection
And on the move the fins would fire as usual for them, so only 3-2

Like Quit2 also said for late war.


The early war option does not give a lot of advantage and it would seem the skiers would be better of without the cumbersome equipment. Smile

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 26 September 2014 06:53]

      
50th
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Fri, 26 September 2014 12:12
Ah, but this occurs before 1943, and being the "rules guy" (as my wife calls me), I will be using the early war rules. Besides, they still get to ignore terrain protection and LOS when they fire!

Just saw a video on you tube about this and other battles. It said that they did have mortars and in one scene showed a horse pulling a sled! Right on Quit2! They cut the Russian columns into pieces called "Motti" and encircled the smaller pieces.

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 26 September 2014 13:01]

      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Fri, 26 September 2014 13:23
50th wrote on Fri, 26 September 2014 19:42

Ah, but this occurs before 1943, and being the "rules guy" (as my wife calls me), I will be using the early war rules. Besides, they still get to ignore terrain protection and LOS when they fire!

Just saw a video on you tube about this and other battles. It said that they did have mortars and in one scene showed a horse pulling a sled! Right on Quit2! They cut the Russian columns into pieces called "Motti" and encircled the smaller pieces.


Something else to remember is that with Motti tactics MG teams were usually placed to hit the start and end of an area that the troops assaulting were trying to cut off, so the MG SWA could also be an option.

I have read many books on the winter war, I had found it extremely fascinating when I was researching WW2.
      
50th
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Fri, 26 September 2014 14:21
I thought about that too, and I might swap one of the mortar units for a MG unit. They didn't just get the start and end. They would use road blocks to cut them up into smaller pieces and overwhelm the smaller groups.

      
Quit2
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Fri, 26 September 2014 20:59
So I understand that as a rules lawyer, you want to use the early war rules.
Yet, their use of sleds for MGs (and possibly mortars) would justify for SWAs that can fire after they moved.
So still something to consider as a designer.
      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Sat, 27 September 2014 01:01
50th wrote on Fri, 26 September 2014 21:51

I thought about that too, and I might swap one of the mortar units for a MG unit. They didn't just get the start and end. They would use road blocks to cut them up into smaller pieces and overwhelm the smaller groups.




Yea I wasn't talking about the start and end of a column, but the MG's focused on where the cuts all along the line would happen, and yea your right then road blocks would be set up once the lines were cut by the assaulting forces. From memory I think Motti roughly translate to a length of wood
      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Sat, 27 September 2014 01:06
Quit2 wrote on Sat, 27 September 2014 04:29

So I understand that as a rules lawyer, you want to use the early war rules.
Yet, their use of sleds for MGs (and possibly mortars) would justify for SWAs that can fire after they moved.
So still something to consider as a designer.


Not necessarily their use of sleds could represent them moving the weapons around in the move phase (but not have enough time to set them up for an attack)

Where if they were already stationary this could represent the unloading and assembly of the weapons. (needing the move and attack phase to represent this)
      
Quit2
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Sat, 27 September 2014 21:29
Aussie_Digger wrote on Sat, 27 September 2014 01:06

Quit2 wrote on Sat, 27 September 2014 04:29

So I understand that as a rules lawyer, you want to use the early war rules.
Yet, their use of sleds for MGs (and possibly mortars) would justify for SWAs that can fire after they moved.
So still something to consider as a designer.


Not necessarily their use of sleds could represent them moving the weapons around in the move phase (but not have enough time to set them up for an attack)

Where if they were already stationary this could represent the unloading and assembly of the weapons. (needing the move and attack phase to represent this)


I've seen an image of them moving their machine guns all set up on sleds, so that they didn't require setup time.
      
Zalamence
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Sun, 28 September 2014 09:04
As a Finn, reading through this thread has been fascinating. Sadly I don't have enough expertise compared to you so as to give any advice regarding SWA/Ski Troops issue. Is the scenario about Raate?

PS. My surname would be Mottinen (-nen being the most common suffix in Finnish names) hadn't the family of dad's father changed it.
      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Sun, 28 September 2014 12:52
Quit2 wrote on Sun, 28 September 2014 04:59

Aussie_Digger wrote on Sat, 27 September 2014 01:06

Quit2 wrote on Sat, 27 September 2014 04:29

So I understand that as a rules lawyer, you want to use the early war rules.
Yet, their use of sleds for MGs (and possibly mortars) would justify for SWAs that can fire after they moved.
So still something to consider as a designer.


Not necessarily their use of sleds could represent them moving the weapons around in the move phase (but not have enough time to set them up for an attack)

Where if they were already stationary this could represent the unloading and assembly of the weapons. (needing the move and attack phase to represent this)


I've seen an image of them moving their machine guns all set up on sleds, so that they didn't require setup time.


Yes they were set up on sleds but the Finns were using the same MG (Maxim) as the Russians at this period in the war. The Russians often had wheels attached to them to move them up quickly but we have all used the early war SWA for them thus far for pre 1943 scenarios.

The MG still had to be set up with ammunition and have the water cooling system attached (transporting with these attached would lead to feed problems and the water system tipping and spilling out not to mention damaging the connection. The connecting systems were often carries separate to the MG by other soldiers.
The Finns had lighter MGs that had skis built onto them and were dragged loaded behind the soldiers but in my mind these MGs were lighter and had to be loaded more frequently and in my mind don't represent the spirit of the SWA. (be like adding a SWA MG to all US units in 1944/45 scenarios since most squads were equipped with BAR's)

It wasn't till later in the war when the Finns developed a system where the MG was cooled by snow (removing the need for the water cooling system and a better feed system for the ammunition (which the Russians copied).

So it depends on the designer of the scenario of the time representation of the actions in the scenario. But in my mind this justifies a difference between early and late war.
      
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Sun, 28 September 2014 16:21
Sorry Zalamence that I misspelled Finnish. I have edited my first post to correct. Yes, the scenario is the Battle of Raate Road. And I read on a historical web site (about the battle) that they did have mortars. They had Finnish made WGB-FN-26 81mm Finnish Light Mortars, I also read that they also employed light Italian mortars like the Brixia Model 35 45mm mortar. There is also a miniatures web page that said that they had hundreds of captured Soviet 50mm mortars.

http://theminiaturespage.com/news/757417652

I have also added a Soviet artillery unit, as I read and saw a picture of captured Soviet artillery in the battle. I am using two armor figures for the Soviets, as they were using mostly light tanks with very light armor. I have also added a machine gun SWA to the Finnish troops, as they had them as mentioned. All SWA will use the early war rules in this scenario.I am going to play test this scenario again with changes I've made, and will release it when if is finished.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 28 September 2014 16:27]

      
Dree
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Sun, 28 September 2014 23:59
**what a nice discussion this is, great to see 50th 'eating' his way in to all the information.
      
50th
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Mon, 29 September 2014 01:31
Dree wrote on Sun, 28 September 2014 16:59

**what a nice discussion this is, great to see 50th 'eating' his way in to all the information.


Thanks Dree! Played another round of this scenario today as Russians and they won! I must play again as the Finnish to see if I've made it too uneven against them. I added a Russian artillery and infantry unit. Here is the first picture of the game:
This is after one or two turns
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/Memoir%2044/IMG_1171_zps70334ff3.jpg

In this game the Russians and the Finns had trouble getting center cards. So I concentrated on the flanks for a while:

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/Memoir%2044/IMG_1185_zpsb681de0e.jpg

      
50th
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Mon, 29 September 2014 01:40


The Russians won 6-4 with the last victory medal being this mortar unit. I've already removed the mortar SWA figure, the single dice next to the artillery and armor units shows the units that fired at the single ski troop figure. The ski troop figure lays on it's side to show that it is defeated:

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/Memoir%2044/IMG_1186_zps7c0af5ee.jpg

On a different note, I'm kind of proud of the way my SWA units and ski troops turned out. (If I haven't mentioned it before, I don't like to paint miniatures, I consider Memoir to be a board game, but got tired of the off-white EP units).

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/Memoir%2044/IMG_1178_zps5cf47b7e.jpg


Will play this scenario again maybe tomorrow. I will let you know what happened.
      
Dree
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Mon, 29 September 2014 22:37
Looks great, with that big wintery road. Is it published yet?

My Finntroopers will get the wintery greatcoat finish one of these days too.
      
50th
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Tue, 30 September 2014 01:17
Played again today as Finns and won. Will release tonight. OK, soon! Will post another pic tonight, after release.

Scenario released!

But first, photos from this last game.

The setup:

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/Memoir%2044/IMG_1192_zps2728b930.jpg

The Units:

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/Memoir%2044/IMG_1197_zps5f897b88.jpg

The scenario:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/editor/view/?id=1539 3

I have updated the scenario by placing the early war rules for the mortar and machine gun in the special rules section. I also corrected my horrible spelling mistakes <Sorry>. Please download the scenario again if you have already done so.

[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 30 September 2014 23:10]

      
Dree
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Wed, 01 October 2014 21:48
Do players choose which units get the mg/mortars? I cant see the badges on the map.

I believe it doesnt say to use finnish ski troops


... I begin my solo expedition now

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 01 October 2014 22:25]

      
Dree
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Wed, 01 October 2014 22:26
It does say skiiers, misread it
      
Dree
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Wed, 01 October 2014 23:51
Just played it, took me 70 minutes. I liked the scenario, some great elements in it. Ski troops are great, although the 'eavy weapons did counter their speed ability, takes away the hit n run tactics. Finnish finished the battle 7-3. With a great last round

Great scenario, thanks man!


https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4pOIldVq256S2FtVjM2MHk1ZU0/edit?usp=docslist_api

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 02 October 2014 00:05]

      
50th
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 02 October 2014 01:12
Dree wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 16:51

Just played it, took me 70 minutes. I liked the scenario, some great elements in it. Ski troops are great, although the 'eavy weapons did counter their speed ability, takes away the hit n run tactics. Finnish finished the battle 7-3. With a great last round

Great scenario, thanks man!


https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4pOIldVq256S2FtVjM2MHk1ZU0/edit?usp=docslist_api


Thanks Dree! I'm glad you liked it. I'm working on another Winter War scenario now. I'm doing the historical research now to see what more I can learn about the battle.


      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Thu, 02 October 2014 21:22
50th wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 08:42

Dree wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 16:51

Just played it, took me 70 minutes. I liked the scenario, some great elements in it. Ski troops are great, although the 'eavy weapons did counter their speed ability, takes away the hit n run tactics. Finnish finished the battle 7-3. With a great last round

Great scenario, thanks man!


https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4pOIldVq256S2FtVjM2MHk1ZU0/edit?usp=docslist_api


Thanks Dree! I'm glad you liked it. I'm working on another Winter War scenario now. I'm doing the historical research now to see what more I can learn about the battle.





Just out of interest what books do you have on the winter war I researched it a few years ago and ended up with everything I could find (just want to see if I had missed anything)
      
Dree
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Fri, 03 October 2014 03:06
errr, did it follow the winter war rules (and deck)? Shocked

Because I didn't
      
50th
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Fri, 03 October 2014 14:54
Dree wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 20:06

errr, did it follow the winter war rules (and deck)? Shocked

Because I didn't


Actually, I didn't either. I thought about it early when I was creating it, but forgot about winter rules later on. So, I would play it w/o winter rules, but I don't see why you couldn't incorporate the deck! (the only thing I can think of is there aren't many cities.)

      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Fri, 03 October 2014 21:43
50th wrote on Fri, 03 October 2014 22:24

Dree wrote on Thu, 02 October 2014 20:06

errr, did it follow the winter war rules (and deck)? Shocked

Because I didn't


Actually, I didn't either. I thought about it early when I was creating it, but forgot about winter rules later on. So, I would play it w/o winter rules, but I don't see why you couldn't incorporate the deck! (the only thing I can think of is there aren't many cities.)




The winter combat card deck dosn't have many cards that rely on cities thats the urban combat deck
      
50th
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Mon, 13 October 2014 15:04
I am now working on another scenario from the winter war: Battle of Tolvajärvi. This one will require the Terrain Pack as well as Eastern Front and Winter War. There is a frozen lake in the battle, which is strung out into narrow sections. I am using the frozen river tiles to duplicate this as much as possible. I will play the second game tonight and post pictures of the set up. This one will make use of the winter rules and either the weather chart by Rasmussen or the reduced visibility rules. It can also be played with the winter combat card deck.

I uploaded the image of the scenario at the start. I played Russia once and won, and Finland once and won. I'm almost ready to publish.It will be sometime this week.


http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/Memoir%2044/IMG_1207_zps9b1f1112.jpg

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 15 October 2014 00:17]

      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Wed, 15 October 2014 00:52
I was just thinking that you could always use the winter marsh tiles to make up parts of the lake too, maybe even replace those terrain pack green tiles with them so it is all still winter tiles, and just state that the marsh hexes are treated as frozen river hexes.

Just a thought anyway.
      
50th
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Wed, 15 October 2014 01:42
I like that idea! I'm already using three of them because there is marsh in the area, there are at least a couple more in the EF.

Most of my Winter Wars research has been online. Using my phone to type this, will provide a link when I get back to my laptop. Also, Campaigns of WWII Day by Day (by Bishop & McNabb).
      
Quit2
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Wed, 15 October 2014 09:02
You could also use a simple curve instead of the green t-section to the left, as well as for the t-section just above it.
That winter t-section can then be used to replace the other green one.
That changes nothing to the terrain used (a frozen river hex stays a frozen river hex), yet solves your problem of shortage of the right winter tiles.
      
50th
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Re:A quick question about Finish Ski Troops and SWA Fri, 17 October 2014 00:01
I took your suggestions and here is a pic of the changes I made:

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/Memoir%2044/IMG_1211_zps21d301fc.jpg

I played this today as the Finns and won. The Russians had problems getting good cards, and they got some lucky rolls, but mine were luckier. I would also like to think tactics played a roll in the win as well.

The second pic is the end of the battle:

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/Memoir%2044/IMG_1215_zps527dc8aa.jpg

I would like to play it once more as the Russians to see if it is at least closed to being balanced. I want the Finns to win most of the time, because this was the first big win for them.

By the way, here is a good site to research more about the battle, and the Winter War:
http://www.winterwar.com/Battles/Tolvaj.htm


Played it Saturday with a friend, I won as Finland. I will look it over tomorrow after work and make it public! I will also tomorrow put the map of the real battle on my user page (I have other battle maps there as well).

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 20 October 2014 04:54]

      
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