Deep Blue Deep Blue

Forum

Suche
Forum » Memoir '44 - English » NFP and Smoke screens
Anzeigen: Heutige Nachrichten 
  
VerfasserThema
nemesszili
Senior Member
Hauptmann

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 966
Registriert:
June 2008
NFP and Smoke screens Wed, 26 June 2019 23:14
Since smoke shells also seem to block LOS for Artillery, the NFP rulebook makes no mention of how Smoke shells/screen affect airplanes.

1. Can they enter hexes with Smoke markers?
2. If so, can they make an attack run targeting units on such hexes?
3. While we're at it, should Action 21 be considered obsoleted by 31?

Obviously it will be a rare occasion when aircraft encounter smoke, but thought of replaying the Normandy Campaign from CB1 and Opportunity at Falaise does have smoke screen present in the beginning.
      
Jon Washington
Member
Cadet

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 85
Registriert:
October 2017
Re:NFP and Smoke screens Wed, 26 June 2019 23:41
nemesszili wrote on Wed, 26 June 2019 17:14

Since smoke shells also seem to block LOS for Artillery, the NFP rulebook makes no mention of how Smoke shells/screen affect airplanes.

1. Can they enter hexes with Smoke markers?
2. If so, can they make an attack run targeting units on such hexes?
3. While we're at it, should Action 21 be considered obsoleted by 31?

Obviously it will be a rare occasion when aircraft encounter smoke, but thought of replaying the Normandy Campaign from CB1 and Opportunity at Falaise does have smoke screen present in the beginning.


Smoke Screen and Smoke Shells are different things. Actions 21 comes from CB1 and is a special rule that would be mentioned in that section of the scenario briefing. It's just an action that a player can take by placing smoke tokens on hexes.

Actions 31 comes from the EP and happens when a player chooses to shoot smoke shells instead of regular artillery fire from a nebelwerfer.

For Smoke Screen Actions 21 the summary card is clear. The smoke screen wouldn't change how planes behave. It says on the card units can move on or through hexes with smoke screen and units can see in and out. Planes don't care about LOS because they battle from directly above.

Smoke Shells Actions 31 is not as simple since units that battle in or out of smoked-shelled hexes are reduced by 1 die. That would affect planes in my opinion.

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 26 June 2019 23:46]

      
nemesszili
Senior Member
Hauptmann

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 966
Registriert:
June 2008
Re:NFP and Smoke screens Thu, 27 June 2019 10:04
Jon Washington wrote on Thu, 27 June 2019 00:41


Smoke Screen and Smoke Shells are different things.



Seems so. What puzzles me is if the main difference is the way they are deployed on the board (from game start/fired from Nebelwerfer), why are they treated differently for LOS (artillery) and combat? Isn't smoke just smoke, either way?

Jon Washington wrote on Thu, 27 June 2019 00:41


Planes don't care about LOS because they battle from directly above.


Correct. I was imagining how a fighter pilot would be unable to see its targets underneath layers of smoke, but ground units can already battle other units in hexes with smoke markers.
      
Zalamence
Senior Member
Mayor

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 228
Registriert:
June 2010
Re:NFP and Smoke screens Thu, 27 June 2019 18:06
Just my two cents, but perhaps the rule is purely for gameplay reasons. Some scenarios may play better at the cost of some inconsistency and maybe thematic aspect. Although I could interpret smoke blocking line-of-sight for spotters, so artillery "loses" line-of-sight, too.
      
Jon Washington
Member
Cadet

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 85
Registriert:
October 2017
Re:NFP and Smoke screens Thu, 27 June 2019 21:46
The rules came out at different times and it seems like they just serve two different individual purposes. Actions 21 is very simple to understand and is used in a rather basic way, i.e. just put tokens on the board. Actions 31 seems like it was designed to be used with D-Day Landings and other more complex situations, you have to choose between firing regular shells or smoke shells, there are reductions to keep track of, etc...

I agree with Zalamence. I think this is just another one of those "because the rules say so" things.
      
sam1812
Senior Member
Brigadier General

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 2798
Registriert:
August 2006
Re:NFP and Smoke screens Fri, 28 June 2019 02:07
First, Szili, it's good to hear from you and to know you're still playing. Very Happy

Jon Washington is on the right track here. Actions-21 Smoke Screens were introduced in Campaign Book 1.

Actions-31 Smoke Shells were introduced with the Nebelwerfers in Equipment Pack (which came before DDL). The EP rule book didn't specifically say that Actions-31 replaces Actions-21, but in general I'd treat it that way.

However, since you're specifically playing the CB1 campaign, I think you can choose whichever rule you and your opponent prefer. Personally, I think the newer one is more interesting.

Here's how I would play the two Actions:

Actions-21 says units can move on and through Smoke Screen, so planes certainly could. (I assume they'd fly above the smoke.) And the unit under the Smoke Screen "may be seen," so it can be attacked.

Actions-31 is trickier. The rule says, "Units moving into smoke shelled hex must stop." There's no exception for planes, so they can go onto smoke, but they'd have to stop. And if a plane stops on a hex, there can't be a unit on that hex. I'd assume that dogfighting would happen as stated in the rules.
      
Jon Washington
Member
Cadet

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 85
Registriert:
October 2017
Re:NFP and Smoke screens Fri, 28 June 2019 08:39
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 27 June 2019 20:07

Actions-31 Smoke Shells were introduced with the Nebelwerfers in Equipment Pack (which came before DDL). The EP rule book didn't specifically say that Actions-31 replaces Actions-21, but in general I'd treat it that way.

However, since you're specifically playing the CB1 campaign, I think you can choose whichever rule you and your opponent prefer. Personally, I think the newer one is more interesting.


I disagree with the bolded part and the last part of the second paragraph.

There is only one scenario in CB1 (Opportunity at Falaise) that allows smoke screens and the special rules allow you to place a smoke screen before your first turn as the Allies. It is a brand new Action that could be very interesting and takes up a half page in the introductory rules but you are allowed to do it exactly once in the entire CB1, and only if you are the Allies.

Of course anyone can play how they want, no argument there. But Replacing 21 with 31 makes things complicated and, frankly, I don't think it would work in CB1 because Actions 31 comes from Nebelwerfers and there simply aren't any in CB1.

YMMV ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      
sam1812
Senior Member
Brigadier General

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 2798
Registriert:
August 2006
Re:NFP and Smoke screens Fri, 28 June 2019 15:09
Sorry, Jon, but you can't disagree with my statement of what my opinion is: "but in general I'd treat it that way." In general, that's exactly what I, personally, would do.

However, in the next paragraph, I specifically said that for this specific case of CB1, it's whatever the players prefer.

Nemesszili is an experienced and very smart player. I trust his instincts.
      
Jon Washington
Member
Cadet

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 85
Registriert:
October 2017
Re:NFP and Smoke screens Fri, 28 June 2019 19:54
sam1812 wrote on Fri, 28 June 2019 09:09

Sorry, Jon, but you can't disagree with my statement of what my opinion is: "but in general I'd treat it that way." In general, that's exactly what I, personally, would do.

I can't disagree with your opinion about Actions 31 replacing Actions 21 in general? OK...
sam1812 wrote on Fri, 28 June 2019 09:09

However, in the next paragraph, I specifically said that for this specific case of CB1, it's whatever the players prefer.

So did I.
JonWashington wrote

Of course anyone can play how they want, no argument there.

So you think Actions 31 should generally replace Actions 21 and that Actions 31 would work in CB1 and I don't.

Agree to disagree, I guess. Cheers!
      
sam1812
Senior Member
Brigadier General

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 2798
Registriert:
August 2006
Re:NFP and Smoke screens Sat, 29 June 2019 05:15
Jon Washington wrote on Fri, 28 June 2019 13:54


I can't disagree with your opinion about Actions 31 replacing Actions 21 in general? OK...

Sounds like I may have been misunderstood. This is just semantics, but I was just saying that I know what my opinion is, so naturally if you tell me that my opinion is something different than what I know it to be, you won't be the one who is correct.

You're totally welcome to have your own opinion, and to disagree with my opinion.
      
tinsoldier
Senior Member
FFM44 Member

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 728
Registriert:
December 2010
Re:NFP and Smoke screens Sat, 29 June 2019 10:39
sam1812 écrit le Fri, 28 June 2019 02:07

Actions-31 is trickier. The rule says, "Units moving into smoke shelled hex must stop." There's no exception for planes, so they can go onto smoke, but they'd have to stop. And if a plane stops on a hex, there can't be a unit on that hex. I'd assume that dogfighting would happen as stated in the rules.


I don't see why a plane would have to stop into smoke shelled hex. IMO this restriction applies to ground units only. Units moving into wood, village, etc... must stop, but not a plane, so there are exceptions for planes.

The rules say:

Terrain Restrictions
An air unit ignores any movement restrictions. It may move onto
or through a hex with terrain, regardless of its nature (impassable
terrain, obstacle, minefield, etc.).

[Aktualisiert am: Sat, 29 June 2019 15:45]

      
nemesszili
Senior Member
Hauptmann

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 966
Registriert:
June 2008
Re:NFP and Smoke screens Sun, 30 June 2019 20:44
sam1812 wrote on Fri, 28 June 2019 03:07

First, Szili, it's good to hear from you and to know you're still playing. Very Happy



Hey hey, likewise! Just surprised myself with two battle maps and the NFP. Very Happy

sam1812 wrote on Fri, 28 June 2019 03:07


Actions-31 Smoke Shells were introduced with the Nebelwerfers in Equipment Pack (which came before DDL). The EP rule book didn't specifically say that Actions-31 replaces Actions-21, but in general I'd treat it that way.

However, since you're specifically playing the CB1 campaign, I think you can choose whichever rule you and your opponent prefer. Personally, I think the newer one is more interesting.



While Action 31 sounds more interesting and likely addresses a lot more balance issues that came up during playtesting, I think sticking to the old rules only for the Falaise scenario makes more sense and here's why: the Axis player is already at a slight disadvantage (63%-37% win ratio in favor of the Allies) and making the smoke block LOS for his only Artillery piece will tilt the balance even more in the Allies' favor.

I'm fully aware that this is nitpicking, as Action 21 affects only a handful of official scenarios (couple more from jdrommel).
      
    
Vorheriges Thema:could all of Air pack scenarios compatible to NFP rule?
Nächstes Thema:Memoir at 2019 World Boardgaming Championships
Gehen Sie zum Forum: