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shannona
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Supported & Frightened Tue, 28 November 2006 05:53
If a frightened unit is supported, does it become frightened AND bold, or does it become normal?
      
eric
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Re:Supported & Frightened Tue, 28 November 2006 06:32
it becomes bold and frightened! Meaning that it first ignore a flag (or more - if it is on a rampart, and a dwarf, and supported, for instance it could ignore 3 flags on any given roll). After it has ignored the flag it could ignore, it then acts like a frightened unit for any additional flag rolled in the same dice roll.
eric
      
tech7
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Re:Supported & Frightened Tue, 28 November 2006 11:32
A different question, does any kind of morale boost stack. The example in the iron dwarf section suggest that, but I couldn't find any passsasge in the rule Book, which verify this.(Only that the iron dwarf morale stack)
      
shannona
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Re:Supported & Frightened Tue, 28 November 2006 18:22
eric wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 00:32

it becomes bold and frightened! Meaning that it first ignore a flag (or more - if it is on a rampart, and a dwarf, and supported, for instance it could ignore 3 flags on any given roll). After it has ignored the flag it could ignore, it then acts like a frightened unit for any additional flag rolled in the same dice roll.
eric


Good, we played it right.

The bit that's confusing is in the rules, where it talks about a unit's morale getting *increased* to bold. That implied a continuum.
      
eric
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Re:Supported & Frightened Tue, 28 November 2006 19:15
yes, the number of flags that can be ignored (or levels of Bold, if you prefer to think of it that way) does stack.

It's just that the Frightened stack (to keep that paradigm) is on a different pile, so one stack doesn't negate or cancel the other.

eric
      
rene Flex
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Re:Supported & Frightened Tue, 28 November 2006 22:46
HELP i can not find the word in me english dix what dos Frightened meens. sorry for me bad eng. Embarassed
      
chucklinus
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Re:Supported & Frightened Tue, 28 November 2006 22:56
effrayé, appeuré...

      
servando
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Re:Supported & Frightened Tue, 28 November 2006 23:31
asustados, atemorizados...
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Thu, 30 November 2006 09:38
Livrädd, byxis, skräckslagen... What language do you want it in? Razz

/wolf
      
combert
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Re:Supported & Frightened Thu, 30 November 2006 10:08
Bange, skræmt, rædselsslagen Razz
      
superdoc608
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Re:Supported & Frightened Thu, 30 November 2006 13:09
ängstlich ... schüchtern Smile
      
Aristos
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  Re:Supported & Frightened Thu, 30 November 2006 13:52
przerazony, wystraszony... Smile

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 30 November 2006 13:52]

      
rene Flex
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Re:Supported & Frightened Thu, 30 November 2006 16:42
Thanks for the help Battlebred but wher dit you now i was from danmark me friend ? Very Happy
      
Robur
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Re:Supported & Frightened Thu, 30 November 2006 17:36
quote

... wher dit you now i was from danmark me friend ?

unquote

in your user profile and apparently Battlebred is also Danish
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Thu, 30 November 2006 23:42
Aristos wrote on Thu, 30 November 2006 13:52

przerazony, wystraszony... Smile


Concidering how many alternatives you got I'd say the odds of you finding your own language in there was in your favour.

/wolf
      
Citizen Psmith
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 01 December 2006 13:54
eric wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 18:15

yes, the number of flags that can be ignored (or levels of Bold, if you prefer to think of it that way) does stack.

To confirm, Frightened stacks in the same way? So a Goblinoid unit under the effects of Mists of Terror would retreat three hexes per flag?
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 01 December 2006 14:10
Citizen Psmith wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 13:54

eric wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 18:15

yes, the number of flags that can be ignored (or levels of Bold, if you prefer to think of it that way) does stack.

To confirm, Frightened stacks in the same way? So a Goblinoid unit under the effects of Mists of Terror would retreat three hexes per flag?


Very good question. The way I would have writen that Lore Card IF that was the intedned Effect is to Say that the Target became "Frightened +1". That would imply a similar logic as for the rest of the cards. As it stands it only says "Fightened"... so I don't know. It will be interesting to see an answer here.

/wolf
      
Sycho81
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 01 December 2006 14:27
As far as I got it, every time a unit gets bold or frightened (by whatever effect), it adds +1 to the appropriate stack (which basically starts at 0). Goblinoids are always frightened (+1), and when under the effects of Mists of Terror they additionally get +1 on their frightened stack. Therefore I'd agree, that the goblinoids have to retreat 3 hexes under these circumstances.
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 01 December 2006 14:34
eric wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 19:15

yes, the number of flags that can be ignored (or levels of Bold, if you prefer to think of it that way) does stack.

It's just that the Frightened stack (to keep that paradigm) is on a different pile, so one stack doesn't negate or cancel the other.

eric


Since I made the misstake of reading the rules again, I'm not sure I agree with this. Why? Because one of the effects of being Bold as stated in the rules p.28, is that you only have to retreat 1 hex for each flag rolled.

So the staks are NOT completely separate, are they?

Hmmm... I think I will go with the rules here to keep things simple. One scale that ranges from (as stated on p.26):

Bold(x) to Normal to Frightened(x)

I can see no other indications in the rules. And since Bold status also declaires how far you retreat you can not mix them up without getting into a mess.

So a Bold(2) unit that becomes the target of a "negative" moral modifier to make in Frigtened would be switched down one notch to just Bold.

Then again.... how to treat the Mists of Terror card?... it says nothing about Morale Modifiers. it simply states that the target becomes Frightened.... it even says explicitly that they cannot ignore any flags rolled against them (for any reason!) and have to check for Panic losses.... is a pickle.

Again I would go by the golden rule that says that the CARD always takes precedence to any writen rule in the book. Hence the card overrules the normal Morale Modifier rules about stacking up and down the Morale range. It simply does what it says it does. Make the unit Frightened. Not Frightened +1. Not Morale Mod -1. Frightened.

/wolf

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 01 December 2006 14:38]

      
Sycho81
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 01 December 2006 14:41
I still think that it makes sense to seperate the frightened and the bold stack. Bold indicates how many flags may be ignored, whereas frightened indicated the amount of hexes to retreat per flag.

Let's take a goblinoid unit, that suffers from Mists of Terror, but gets support and therefore is bold as well. So bold stack = 1; frightened stack = 2. Now mention 2 flags were rolled against them, they may ignore 1 flag due to being bold, but they have to retreat 3 hexes because they're frightened2.
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 01 December 2006 14:49
Sycho81 wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 14:41

I still think that it makes sense to seperate the frightened and the bold stack. Bold indicates how many flags may be ignored, whereas frightened indicated the amount of hexes to retreat per flag.


Not accrding to the table on page 28, cause there one of the Bold Effects are listed as "retreat 1 hex per flag".

And what about the rule of precedence in the cards?

...But I hate repeating myself and that table and card might be wrong or missleading so... I can definetly see your point.

And if there is an official Errata on this (maybe change the cards a little bit to talk more about Morale Modifiers in general than simply stating what morale level is reached?) then I would surely play by it.

But so far I will play by the book.

/wolf
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 01 December 2006 14:53
Sycho81 wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 14:41

Let's take a goblinoid unit, that suffers from Mists of Terror, but gets support and therefore is bold as well.


According to my way of interpreting the rules that Goblinoid unit would have a Morale Status of Normal. Not Bold and Frightened. The Mist of terror would make it Frightened casue that is what it says on the card. And cards take precedence over the writen rules.

If that Goblin Unit was Supported and standing on a rampart it would be Bold.... the Mist card would still make it Frightened caus that is what it says on tha card, and the card wins any conflict over the rules.

Enough repreating. I will wait for an official ruling on this. I can see it your way to if I try so I honestly don't know. Just goes to show there is a hole in the rules here I think.

/wolf

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 01 December 2006 14:53]

      
Sycho81
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 01 December 2006 14:55
I also got your point. Let's see, hopefully eric or an errata could help us out here Smile
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 01 December 2006 15:01
Sycho81 wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 14:55

Let's see, hopefully eric or an errata could help us out here Smile


Agreed. Good exchange of thoughts though. Smile And I think this is the first official "glitch" that I know of in the game rules. It could have done well with some more exaples. (i.e. Cards in combination with Terrain Effects, Race Bonus and the like) Cause I don't think it is fully explored in the rules as they stand. (If they were I don't think we would have this argument.

/wolf
      
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 01 December 2006 15:21
Sycho81 wrote on Fri, 01 December 2006 13:41

I still think that it makes sense to seperate the frightened and the bold stack. Bold indicates how many flags may be ignored, whereas frightened indicated the amount of hexes to retreat per flag.

Right. A unit can be a tough fighter as long as they stand their ground, but when they do break, they break hard. Makes thematic sense.

Quote:

Let's take a goblinoid unit, that suffers from Mists of Terror, but gets support and therefore is bold as well. So bold stack = 1; frightened stack = 2. Now mention 2 flags were rolled against them, they may ignore 1 flag due to being bold, but they have to retreat 3 hexes because they're frightened2.

Mists of Terror explicitly says that its targets may not ignore flags for any reason; I'd interpret this as reducing the Bold stack to 0 in addition to increasing the Frightened stack by one.
      
eric
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 01 December 2006 17:35
CitizenPSmith got it all correct. Very Happy
The cards trump the rest (hence in this case the support the goblins may have becomes irrelevant).
eric
      
orcbreath
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Re:Supported & Frightened Sat, 02 December 2006 19:38
If I can be so ' Bold ' Very Happy

Seems in the C&C rules system, 99.0 % of the time _
'tactic' (and now Lore) cards will always trumph a- basic/sectional/unit/terrain/movement/combat Rule thrown up against it.
Don't think you'll go wrong calling it that way when it comes up in a game and
checking erratica/FAQ's later.
Instead of looking at all the rules available in a situation.. follow the Tactic or Lore card instructions and it will cancel/flowover the other rules.

Combat over...next play..on with the game..on to victory!
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Mon, 04 December 2006 17:05
I'm still a confused about this part eric.

I hear what you are saying (or at least I think I do) but nothing of what you are saying is repeated in the rules. Will we see an official errata on this or not? Rolling Eyes

I also noted that you didn't really answer any of my questions, and that is fine, but it doesn't really make me less confused. Smile

And since they were not adressed I feel the urge to repeat my questions:

1. I mean the only place where I can find in the rules that says a Bold Unit that becomes Bold again automatically is Bold2 is p38 and that part is clearly talking about Dwarves Sepcial Ability "Iron Morale". No where (that I can find) is it mentioned that the same rules should apply to all situations all races where this happens. But apparently they should? Or?

2. I've read and re-read the Morale rules on p26-28 and I cannot even find the word "stack" anywhere in there. The modifiers section talk only about changing status from normal to Bold and so on. No where (that I can find) is it mentioned that any of these effects Stack. But apparently they should?

3. The Bold status also mentions that the Unit in question only have to retreat 1 hex per flag rolled. So your claim that the Bold and Frightened stacks are separate (that you can be both without having a conflict in the rules)seems a little... in error? At least that is not the case in the rules. But maybe it should be? So a Bold AND frightened unit shoul dretreat how manny hexes per flag? 2 I guess... but his Bold status is then not as Bold as the rules say and I have nothing in the rulebook to back this up.

4. Cards that make a unit Bold or Frightened... well this is a case in itself. In my world a card that states that it makes a unit Frigthened for instance would... make the Unit Frightened regardless of it's previous status. In effect it could act as a morale "booster" on a Unit that was Frightened2 or 3 even. Especially since the Card also states how manny hexes the unit have to retreat and how to roll for panic losses. The notion that this card should somehow act as a modifier is well... not printed on the card and the card trumps any rules in the book.

5. Speaking of Modifiers... the Morale Modifiers section in the rules p28 doesn't even mention the possibility of boosting morale "above" Bold to say Bold2 or 3. Like I said, the notions of stacks and such are not even there.

So yeah... I'm still confused. Should I rip out these pages and wait for an errata? Is it worth it? Or should I print out your answers and have a "Eric's Rules" edition with me when I play? Cool Some examples would be nice... different units, different factors and what is a modifier? Should a card effect always be considered a modifier regardless of what the card said?

This confusion is causing me pain in my games now cause I honestly don't know, and neither do my friens that I've played with. They've also read the rules and shaked their heads and they all have their own take on it... much like this threaad does.

Apreciate your answer.

/wolf

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 04 December 2006 17:05]

      
tech7
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Re:Supported & Frightened Mon, 04 December 2006 18:00
GhostWolf69 schrieb am Mon, 04 December 2006 17:05



1. I mean the only place where I can find in the rules that says a Bold Unit that becomes Bold again automatically is Bold2 is p38 and that part is clearly talking about Dwarves Sepcial Ability "Iron Morale". No where (that I can find) is it mentioned that the same rules should apply to all situations all races where this happens. But apparently they should? Or?



I didn't find a rule passage either, however take a look at the example by the iron dwarves, in that piccture(at least in the german version) they have bold 3, their own morale boost, the boost from being supported AND the boost from the terrain. This is clear sign, that other morale boost stack also.
      
benjiboy2
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  Re:Supported & Frightened Mon, 04 December 2006 18:46
This all sounds horribly like the complexities that began to arise in MTG when they got to fifth ed. and some players/moderators started getting carried away with the almost limitless varieties of timing and efects interactions between cards.
For your own sanity and game enjoyment I would urge you all to opt for the simplest interpretation so that the flow of play is not interrupted and we don't have to start making little +1, +2 etc. markers to try and keep track of everything thats happening...

Rolling Eyes

Benjiboy
      
eric
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Re:Supported & Frightened Mon, 04 December 2006 19:04
Wolf,

I promise, it's not as complex as you make it sound (I am afraid there are some of your questions I am not even sure I understand). The only reason I alluded to stacks was because someone brought it up before, so I was staying with the same terms.

As for my words being the official word, you will have to trust me on this since I am the one who wrote these pages in the book. Very Happy

Here's a simple recap (and yes, the book should probably have included an example of how the concepts of Bold and Frightened interacted together Embarassed ).

Bold is the capacity for a unit to ignore 1 (or more, if Bold2, ...) Retreat flags rolled against it.

Once those flag(s) have been ignored, any other flag rolled as part of the same dice roll must be taken, and forces the unit to retreat as normal, ie 1 hex per flag.

This "Bold" status does stack, in the sense that the number of flags a unit can ignore adds up. An Iron Dwarf can ignore 1 flag on each dice rolled against him. If he's also on a Rampart, he can ignore 1 additional flag for a total of 2. if he's also supported, in can ignore 3 flags, etc...

If there are still flags left over after that, those cannot be ignored, and must be taken, forcing a retreat of 1 hex per flag left over.

Frightened on the other hand, is a measure of the number of hexes that a unit must retreat, above and beyond the normal 1 hex per flag, for each retreat flag the unit is forced to take.

For instance, goblins are frightened, so they retreat 2 hex per flag instead of the normal 1 hex per flag.

If goblins are in support, they are "bold" and can ignore 1 flag. Any flag above and beyond that one, they cannot ignore and are forced to take. For each of these flags, they retreat 2 hexes per flag, instead of 1 hex.

The above holds true for any unit that is both "bold" and "frightened": It first ignores as many flags as indicated by its Bold status. For any flags above and beyond this on the same battle dice roll, it must then retreat 2 hexes, instead of the normal 1.

About Lore cards:
If a card states that no flag can be ignored, then this overrides any Bold capability the unit may have had. As such, even an iron dwarf will not be able to ignore a flag. He will have to retreat even if just 1 flag is rolled against him.

Hope this helps.
eric

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 04 December 2006 22:09]

      
mad-halfling
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Re:Supported & Frightened Mon, 04 December 2006 20:15
Not wanting to be picky, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut

eric wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 18:04


Bold is nothing else than the capacity for a unit to ignore 1 (or more, if Bold2, ...) Retreat flags rolled against it.



doesn't being Bold also enable the unit to Battle Back if it survives and isn't forced to retreat?

=8)

(on a more serious note, thought that if I am correct it might be worth clarifying in case it confuses anyone)

Also, as listed in an earlier question, if Mists of Terror makes units firghtened in addition to making them unable to ignore flags, does this stack with units that are already Frightened and make it their initial Frightened level + 1 or does it have no additional effect on them beyond stopping them ignoring flags?

Cheers, Eric

MH
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Mon, 04 December 2006 22:06
eric wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 19:04

Wolf,

As for my words being the official word, you will have to trust me on this since I am the one who wrote these pages in the book. Very Happy


Roger that.

eric wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 19:04


Bold is nothing else than the capacity for a unit to ignore 1 (or more, if Bold2, ...) Retreat flags rolled against it.


So basically the text in the rules that says that if you are Bold you should only have to retreat 1 hex per flag (flags you have to take), and should be removed from the rules. Got it... You should not have writen that if you didn't mean it like that. Razz

eric wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 19:04


This "Bold" status does stack, in the sense that the number of flags a unit can ignore adds up. An Iron Dwarf can ignore 1 flag on each dice rolled against him. If he's also on a Rampart, he can ignore 1 additional flag for a total of 2. if he's also supported, in can ignore 3 flags, etc...

If there are still flags left over after that, those cannot be ignored, and must be taken, forcing a retreat of 1 hex per flag left over.


...if it is not also Frightened... got it. There is nothing to support this in the rules but I will play it like this. The Iron Dwarf example is easliy missinterpreted as being in direct reference to Iron Moral which is a special ability the Dwarves have. Another example in the normal morale rules about this would have cleared that up... or if it was in the normal morale rules. But I got it, I'll trus you as the author. May I recomend an FAQ about this? Razz

eric wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 19:04


Frightened on the other hand, is a measure of the number of hexes that a unit must retreat, above and beyond the normal 1 hex per flag, for each retreat flag the unit is forced to take.



No argument there. Smile

eric wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 19:04


If goblins are in support, they are "bold" and can ignore 1 flag. Any flag above and beyond that one, they cannot ignore and are forced to take. For each of these flags, they retreat 2 hexes per flag, instead of 1 hex.

The above holds true for any unit that is both "bold" and "frightened": It first ignores as many flags as indicated by its Bold status. For any flags above and beyond this on the same battle dice roll, it must then retreat 2 hexes, instead of the normal 1.


Ok. A simple example of this would have cleared it, or again if it was mentioned as a possible outcome in the rules. It's not.

eric wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 19:04


Hope this helps.



Yupp. I think it will. Thanks for you patience. But had you done a better job writing this part in the first place you wouldn't have had to put up with geeks like me eating up your time. Laughing

Peace, wolf out for to night. (it's 22:06 here)


/wolf
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Mon, 04 December 2006 22:09
Mad-Halfling wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 20:15

Also, as listed in an earlier question, if Mists of Terror makes units firghtened in addition to making them unable to ignore flags, does this stack with units that are already Frightened and make it their initial Frightened level + 1 or does it have no additional effect on them beyond stopping them ignoring flags?


See what I mean eric? Rolling Eyes

/wolf
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 08 December 2006 07:57
eric wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 19:04

As for my words being the official word, you will have to trust me on this since I am the one who wrote these pages in the book.


Honestly Eric, I don't doubt that your word is official, but concidering that the same questions pop up over and over again in new and old threads on this forum I still think an Official Errata and an FAQ that people can download in PDF format would:

a) save you a lot of time from answering the same question several times

b) give players a real document to print out and use instead of refering to "Some guy on the forum" (that always sounds kind of crap, even if you were the writer) and

c) give guys the opportunity to arrange official tournaments and stuff (maybe with prizes from DoW?) and in the Tournament Rules state that we are using Erratta such and such to clear out all missunderstandings.

I think you should definetly consider this.

/wolf

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 08 December 2006 07:58]

      
tech7
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 08 December 2006 14:55
GhostWolf69 wrote on Fri, 08 December 2006 07:57

eric wrote on Mon, 04 December 2006 19:04

As for my words being the official word, you will have to trust me on this since I am the one who wrote these pages in the book.


Honestly Eric, I don't doubt that your word is official, but concidering that the same questions pop up over and over again in new and old threads on this forum I still think an Official Errata and an FAQ that people can download in PDF format would:

a) save you a lot of time from answering the same question several times

b) give players a real document to print out and use instead of refering to "Some guy on the forum" (that always sounds kind of crap, even if you were the writer) and

c) give guys the opportunity to arrange official tournaments and stuff (maybe with prizes from DoW?) and in the Tournament Rules state that we are using Erratta such and such to clear out all missunderstandings.

I think you should definetly consider this.

/wolf


Agreed,
the rule book is really good, however at least the morale section should get a FAQ.

And one advice for the future, if you introduce a new keyword then USE it, there are way too many cards or effects, which make bold but just say, they can ignore one flag and possible battle back, and have no mention of the keyword.

If you want to repeat such a rule on a card, do it the same way, WOTC do it on newer Magic cards. They print the keyword in the standart font, and give a short explanation of it in brackets, an a samller italicised font. At least where new keywords are introduced.
For example:
"This unit is bold 2(It can ignore up to 2 rolled flags and may possible battle back)"



      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 08 December 2006 20:54
I totally agree.

*glances at the Bridge summary card, and growls...*

Cool

/wolf
      
eric
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Re:Supported & Frightened Fri, 08 December 2006 21:48
tech7 wrote on Fri, 08 December 2006 05:55



Agreed,
the rule book is really good, however at least the morale section should get a FAQ.

And one advice for the future, if you introduce a new keyword then USE it, there are way too many cards or effects, which make bold but just say, they can ignore one flag and possible battle back, and have no mention of the keyword.

If you want to repeat such a rule on a card, do it the same way, WOTC do it on newer Magic cards. They print the keyword in the standart font, and give a short explanation of it in brackets, an a samller italicised font. At least where new keywords are introduced.
For example:
"This unit is bold 2(It can ignore up to 2 rolled flags and may possible battle back)"




We agree. For practical reasons, we just couldn't do it this time around.
eric

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 08 December 2006 22:06]

      
tech7
Senior Member
Cadet

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September 2006
Re:Supported & Frightened Sat, 09 December 2006 23:35
Purrfect Wink
      
kjweimer
Junior Member

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August 2005
  Re:Supported & Frightened Wed, 13 December 2006 18:26
tech7 wrote on Fri, 08 December 2006 08:55


If you want to repeat such a rule on a card, do it the same way, WOTC do it on newer Magic cards. They print the keyword in the standart font, and give a short explanation of it in brackets, an a samller italicised font. At least where new keywords are introduced.
For example:
"This unit is bold 2(It can ignore up to 2 rolled flags and may possible battle back)"



I'd really rather not see explanation text on the cards like WotC does. To me it creates too much clutter on the card & slows down the reading. A quick reference list at the front or back of the rule book (or expansion books, etc.) would be preferable. Most of the time that explanation text is only needed for a short period of time anyway (enough to remember the gist of it). Perhaps an online, updated for each expansion, downloadable quick reference list would be better. Plus, if the rulebook is eventually updated & clarified on the area then the extra text on the card would be redundant. :-/
      
    
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