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KirbyHero
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Creature confusion Mon, 11 December 2006 18:22
Two quick questions on creature retreating.

If Creature A is blocked from retreating by anything and Creature B is Creature B trampled, or does Creature B merely roll a dice as if 'at risk of' a critical hit (like a blocked retreating creature)?

Who would receive the lore token in the above example if Creature B was killed, the controller of Creature A or the controller of the attacking unit?
      
Jude
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Re:Creature confusion Mon, 11 December 2006 21:26
Those are good questions.

I hadn't even considered that a creature might be able to trample another creature! I would guess that the trampled creature wouldn't be eliminated outright, but I don't remember seeing any rules about it at all.

Another similar question:

If a unit of yours is completely eliminated by a trampling creature who is also yours, does your opponent still get the banner to count towards the number needed for his victory?

Jude
      
steve_hill
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Re:Creature confusion Mon, 11 December 2006 21:33
Jude wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 20:26

If a unit of yours is completely eliminated by a trampling creature who is also yours, does your opponent still get the banner to count towards the number needed for his victory?
Jude


I would vote, yes - emphatically!

Steve.

      
SHwoKing
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Re:Creature confusion Mon, 11 December 2006 21:37
steve_hill écrit le Mon, 11 December 2006 21:33

Jude wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 20:26

If a unit of yours is completely eliminated by a trampling creature who is also yours, does your opponent still get the banner to count towards the number needed for his victory?
Jude


I would vote, yes - emphatically!

Steve.




Me too.

As for

KirbyHero

If Creature A is blocked from retreating by anything and Creature B is Creature B trampled, or does Creature B merely roll a dice as if 'at risk of' a critical hit (like a blocked retreating creature)?


I would play it like this : since when a card say "lose 1 figure" count as a hit for creature then when a creature is trample, you must roll a number of dice equal to the number of figures wich would be lost (ie : 3 flags (bold) = 4 figures = 4 dice) and every helmet matching creature's banner color kill the creature.
      
steve_hill
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Re:Creature confusion Mon, 11 December 2006 21:43
KirbyHero wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 17:22

Two quick questions on creature retreating.

If Creature A is blocked from retreating by anything and Creature B is Creature B trampled, or does Creature B merely roll a dice as if 'at risk of' a critical hit (like a blocked retreating creature)?

Who would receive the lore token in the above example if Creature B was killed, the controller of Creature A or the controller of the attacking unit?


I guess there are several cases:

1. retreat is blocked by two creatures (unlikely but could happen)
2. retreat is blocked by impassable terrain and a creature
3. retreat is blocked by troops and a creature

If creatures are treated as impassable for these purposes, the problem becomes a lot simpler!

Steve.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Creature confusion Mon, 11 December 2006 23:15
When a creature retreats, it should only effect "units." A creature is not a "unit" by definition (basing this off memory and a quick look at the online Ancients examples). I would say that the 2nd creature would be treated as an immovavble force and so the 1st creature would only effect a unit in the other hex.

If you lose a friendly unit to your friendly creature retreating, I think your opponent should receive the banner for that. Your creature only caused 1/3 to 1/4 of the damage and so your opponent already did 66 to 75% of the work.
      
steve_hill
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Re:Creature confusion Mon, 11 December 2006 23:49
ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 22:15

When a creature retreats, it should only effect "units." A creature is not a "unit" by definition (basing this off memory and a quick look at the online Ancients examples). I would say that the 2nd creature would be treated as an immovavble force and so the 1st creature would only effect a unit in the other hex.

If you lose a friendly unit to your friendly creature retreating, I think your opponent should receive the banner for that. Your creature only caused 1/3 to 1/4 of the damage and so your opponent already did 66 to 75% of the work.


Sounds reasonable, but unfortunately a creature is a unit by definition. I have the advantage of being next to the rulebook and on p41 it says "This single figure is considered a unit, for gameplay purposes, ..."

Having said that, I think treating creatures as obstacles in this case makes sense.

Steve.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Creature confusion Tue, 12 December 2006 00:53
steve_hill wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 16:49

ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 22:15

When a creature retreats, it should only effect "units." A creature is not a "unit" by definition (basing this off memory and a quick look at the online Ancients examples). I would say that the 2nd creature would be treated as an immovavble force and so the 1st creature would only effect a unit in the other hex.

If you lose a friendly unit to your friendly creature retreating, I think your opponent should receive the banner for that. Your creature only caused 1/3 to 1/4 of the damage and so your opponent already did 66 to 75% of the work.


Sounds reasonable, but unfortunately a creature is a unit by definition. I have the advantage of being next to the rulebook and on p41 it says "This single figure is considered a unit, for gameplay purposes, ..."

Having said that, I think treating creatures as obstacles in this case makes sense.

Steve.


right you are (now that I am back at home with my rulebook). The thing that stuck in my memory was the next line down - "Creatures are neither foot units or mounted units" - so i wrongly assumed that meant they are not units at all.

However, reading to the next page again. A creature can only be eliminated when they recevie a Critical hit. A critical hit only occures when you roll the dice a second time from a previous attack. When another creature retreats, blocking units automatically lose a figure - there is not rolling of dice. And if the blocking creature lost one figure, it would be eliminated, but that can't happen because there was no ciriticl hit. And you can't roll for critical hit because there was no initial roll. So the easiest and most logical seems to be what we seem to agree on: blocking creatures are immovable objects to the retreating creature.
      
Jude
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Re:Creature confusion Tue, 12 December 2006 00:59
In that case, it becomes possible that a trampling creature cannot retreat or do any trampling damage at all, if both hexes behind it are blocked, either by creatures or blocking terrain/landscape.

So, that might lead to any interesting strategy of (in the future, when more creatures are available) having creatures backed up with other creatures, making them unretreatable.

Jude
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Creature confusion Tue, 12 December 2006 01:12
Jude wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 17:59

In that case, it becomes possible that a trampling creature cannot retreat or do any trampling damage at all, if both hexes behind it are blocked, either by creatures or blocking terrain/landscape.

So, that might lead to any interesting strategy of (in the future, when more creatures are available) having creatures backed up with other creatures, making them unretreatable.

Jude

Unretreatable but still dangerous for the creature in front. If he can't retreat at all, he has to roll two dice to check for a critical hit. I always have trouble calculating dice odds, but it seems it may be safer to keep creatures in the open or flanked by friendly units.
      
SHwoKing
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Re:Creature confusion Tue, 12 December 2006 01:22
ColtsFan76 écrit le Tue, 12 December 2006 01:12

Jude wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 17:59

In that case, it becomes possible that a trampling creature cannot retreat or do any trampling damage at all, if both hexes behind it are blocked, either by creatures or blocking terrain/landscape.

So, that might lead to any interesting strategy of (in the future, when more creatures are available) having creatures backed up with other creatures, making them unretreatable.

Jude

Unretreatable but still dangerous for the creature in front. If he can't retreat at all, he has to roll two dice to check for a critical hit. I always have trouble calculating dice odds, but it seems it may be safer to keep creatures in the open or flanked by friendly units.


For this, i can answer : chance to kill a creature blocked by a river (as an exemple) is quiet the same as attacking it in open space. Depending on number of dice to attack, it goes up to one more percent, 1,5 to maximum. So it is a good way for creature to block her to have a 100% Battle Back.
      
GhostWolf69
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Re:Creature confusion Tue, 12 December 2006 09:29
KirbyHero wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 18:22

Two quick questions on creature retreating.

If Creature A is blocked from retreating by anything and Creature B is Creature B trampled, or does Creature B merely roll a dice as if 'at risk of' a critical hit (like a blocked retreating creature)?

Who would receive the lore token in the above example if Creature B was killed, the controller of Creature A or the controller of the attacking unit?


DoW will probably say you should roll for criticals for each trample-hit scored on Creature B. (I guess)

IMHO A creature tramples units because they are much smaller than the Creature. It simply runs them over in panic and desperation cause a lot of harm to the pescy little humanoids as it goes. I have trouble seeing a spider doing as much harm to a Hill Giant. I mean come on... there is no size difference here to be considered so maybe, just maybe, you could treat this as if a unit tried to retreat into another unit. i.e. It can't and takes extra hits instead (roll for criticals for each retreap step not taken by Creature A, but do not roll for Creature B since it can hardly be trampled by a creature of same or smaller size). I don't know. It just sounded like it could be that way too.

/wolf
      
Jude
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Re:Creature confusion Tue, 12 December 2006 14:26
All of the suggestions (the alternatives to outright elimination of the trampled creature) seem reasonable and would work, but we really need an official ruling on which one to use, since they contradict each other, and so we are all playing with the same rules!

Eric? Richard Borg?

Jude
      
RBorg
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Re:Creature confusion Wed, 13 December 2006 00:11
KirbyHero wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 12:22

Two quick questions on creature retreating.

If Creature A is blocked from retreating by anything and Creature B is Creature B trampled, or does Creature B merely roll a dice as if 'at risk of' a critical hit (like a blocked retreating creature)?

Who would receive the lore token in the above example if Creature B was killed, the controller of Creature A or the controller of the attacking unit?


Lets fight out the Battle...

Red Infantry unit moved to attack the Spider (creature A).
A full strength blue infantry unit and the Hill Giant (creature B) have moved in behind the Spider.

The Red Infantry attacks, 4 battle dice are rolled; one green helmet, one Sword on Shield and two Flags.

The spider (creature A) risks receiving a Critical Hit, two dice are rolled by the attacking player looking for a green helmet. The roll is a miss.

Because the spider (creature A) must retreat (1 flag must be ignored but the other flag will force the spider to retreat), the spider risks receiving a Critical Hit as the attacking player rolls 1 die for each hex of retreat movement spider did not take, 2 dice are rolled.

If the spider (creature A) is eliminated on the Critical Hit roll the attacking player gains a banner and a Lore token.

If the spider (creature A) is not eliminated on the Critical Hit the spider will trample the unit and hill giant (creature B) blocking the spider's retreat path... player that is in control of spider determines the order of hexes trampled.

The hill giant (creature B) risks receiving a Critical Hit (2 dice are rolled).
If hill giant is eliminated on the Critical Hit roll the player in control of spider (creature A) doing the trampling gains the banner and Lore token.

The unit will lose 1 figure for each hex of retreat movement creature A did not take (unit would lose 2 figures).

If the spider (creature A) does not retreat from its hex, it may battle back against the red infantry unit.

Richard Borg
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Creature confusion Wed, 13 December 2006 00:38
Questions Richard,

What if a player is in control of both the Spider and the Hill Giant. The Spider tramples the Hill Giant, you get your a Banner for killing off your own unit? Same goes if you eliminate your own troops - do you get the banner? This doesn't seem right but that is how you stated it.

Second, why does the Hill Giant roll *two* dice? Is this always the case if a creature blocks a creature? Or does it vary?
      
SHwoKing
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Re:Creature confusion Wed, 13 December 2006 01:03
ColtsFan76 écrit le Wed, 13 December 2006 00:38

Questions Richard,

What if a player is in control of both the Spider and the Hill Giant. The Spider tramples the Hill Giant, you get your a Banner for killing off your own unit? Same goes if you eliminate your own troops - do you get the banner? This doesn't seem right but that is how you stated it.

Right now, you cannot haev two creatures on your side unless playing with home rules. And i guess having your unit trampled and eliminated by yur creature give a banner to your opponent.


ColtsFan76 écrit le Wed, 13 December 2006 00:38

Second, why does the Hill Giant roll *two* dice? Is this always the case if a creature blocks a creature? Or does it vary?

Cause instead of Hill Giant, there should be two figures destroy, two figures : two dice.

And now for my question :

-Who roll the critical attempt for a trampled creature, the owner or his opponent ?

[EDIT] : forget about the other question, this is obvious that retreating and trampling must be examine retreating hex per retreating hex.

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 13 December 2006 10:12]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Creature confusion Wed, 13 December 2006 03:58
Besides the fact we only have one creature spot ont he War Council and the scenarios that came with the game only show one creature per side, is there a specific rule that says you can only have one creature?

As far as the dice rolling -

1) to your answer - sounds logical but doesn't necessarily mean it is true. A normal unit loses two figures and I see the correlation for the two dice if the blocking creature is immediately behind it. But if the retreating creature clears a path by eliminating a 1-figure unit, would the blocking creature only roll 1 die now? Or better yet, what if there is one hex between the retreating and blocking creatures? then it already moved one and so the blcoking units should only lose one figure each. So the blocking creature would only roll one die by this logic, right?

2) to your question - the attacker rolls the dice in a normal combat and the rule implies that the attacker would roll the critical hits (at least there is no idication that the owner of the hit creature now would roll the critical hits). So the owner of the retreating creature should roll for the trample and if he hits on the banner color of the blocking creature, the one retreating should also roll for the critical hits.

As far as your last example,I don't understand what you are saying. But it would seem to me if a Spider needs to retreat more than 4 hexes (killing two 4-figure unit immediately behind her) she would then choose a hex to move in and then the next two unlucky units would absorb the rest of the unresolved flags. Since she moved into a hex of a now defeated unit, I would think one flag has been fulfilled at that point.
      
SHwoKing
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Re:Creature confusion Wed, 13 December 2006 10:19
ColtsFan76 écrit le Wed, 13 December 2006 03:58

Besides the fact we only have one creature spot ont he War Council and the scenarios that came with the game only show one creature per side, is there a specific rule that says you can only have one creature?


This was asked several time (maybe not on the english forum) and always answered by Dow's staff that you can only draft one creature on each side right now.

As far as the dice rolling -

ColtsFan76 écrit le Wed, 13 December 2006 03:58

1) to your answer - sounds logical but doesn't necessarily mean it is true. A normal unit loses two figures and I see the correlation for the two dice if the blocking creature is immediately behind it. But if the retreating creature clears a path by eliminating a 1-figure unit, would the blocking creature only roll 1 die now?

Yes, retreating creature only trample one figure in both hex, then you roll 1 die.
ColtsFan76 écrit le Wed, 13 December 2006 03:58


Or better yet, what if there is one hex between the retreating and blocking creatures? then it already moved one and so the blcoking units should only lose one figure each. So the blocking creature would only roll one die by this logic, right?

Yes, i would play it like this and sounds very natural to me.

ColtsFan76 écrit le Wed, 13 December 2006 03:58

2) to your question - the attacker rolls the dice in a normal combat and the rule implies that the attacker would roll the critical hits (at least there is no idication that the owner of the hit creature now would roll the critical hits). So the owner of the retreating creature should roll for the trample and if he hits on the banner color of the blocking creature, the one retreating should also roll for the critical hits.

It seems good to me

ColtsFan76 écrit le Wed, 13 December 2006 03:58

As far as your last example,I don't understand what you are saying. But it would seem to me if a Spider needs to retreat more than 4 hexes (killing two 4-figure unit immediately behind her) she would then choose a hex to move in and then the next two unlucky units would absorb the rest of the unresolved flags. Since she moved into a hex of a now defeated unit, I would think one flag has been fulfilled at that point.


It wasn't clear enough i know,and i already find the answer to my question so i deleted it. It is oubvious that you have to treat impossible retreat and trampling for each retreating hex.

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 13 December 2006 10:20]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Creature confusion Wed, 13 December 2006 13:59
SHwoKing wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 03:19

ColtsFan76 écrit le Wed, 13 December 2006 03:58

Besides the fact we only have one creature spot ont he War Council and the scenarios that came with the game only show one creature per side, is there a specific rule that says you can only have one creature?


This was asked several time (maybe not on the english forum) and always answered by Dow's staff that you can only draft one creature on each side right now.

OK. I don't recall seeing this. Though we have no provisions to include it (would we just make our Creature on the War Council a 3 and that allows us to have 3 creatures?) I just don't remember anything that excluded it.

Quote:

ColtsFan76 écrit le Wed, 13 December 2006 03:58

1) to your answer - sounds logical but doesn't necessarily mean it is true. A normal unit loses two figures and I see the correlation for the two dice if the blocking creature is immediately behind it. But if the retreating creature clears a path by eliminating a 1-figure unit, would the blocking creature only roll 1 die now?

Yes, retreating creature only trample one figure in both hex, then you roll 1 die.

That sounds logical but that was my question to DOW. They didn't say that. And so that is why I asked for official clarification - is it 1 die per hex? Or is it always 2 dice? Anything we come up with is speculation at this point.
      
orcbreath
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Re:Creature confusion Thu, 14 December 2006 06:11
RBorg wrote on Tue, 12 December 2006 17:11

KirbyHero wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 12:22

Two quick questions on creature retreating.

If Creature A is blocked from retreating by anything and Creature B is Creature B trampled, or does Creature B merely roll a dice as if 'at risk of' a critical hit (like a blocked retreating creature)?

Who would receive the lore token in the above example if Creature B was killed, the controller of Creature A or the controller of the attacking unit?


Lets fight out the Battle...

Red Infantry unit moved to attack the Spider (creature A).
A full strength blue infantry unit and the Hill Giant (creature B) have moved in behind the Spider.

The Red Infantry attacks, 4 battle dice are rolled; one green helmet, one Sword on Shield and two Flags.

The spider (creature A) risks receiving a Critical Hit, two dice are rolled by the attacking player looking for a green helmet. The roll is a miss.

Because the spider (creature A) must retreat (1 flag must be ignored but the other flag will force the spider to retreat), the spider risks receiving a Critical Hit as the attacking player rolls 1 die for each hex of retreat movement spider did not take, 2 dice are rolled.

If the spider (creature A) is eliminated on the Critical Hit roll the attacking player gains a banner and a Lore token.

If the spider (creature A) is not eliminated on the Critical Hit the spider will trample the unit and hill giant (creature B) blocking the spider's retreat path... player that is in control of spider determines the order of hexes trampled.

The hill giant (creature B) risks receiving a Critical Hit (2 dice are rolled).
If hill giant is eliminated on the Critical Hit roll the player in control of spider (creature A) doing the trampling gains the banner and Lore token.

The unit will lose 1 figure for each hex of retreat movement creature A did not take (unit would lose 2 figures).

If the spider (creature A) does not retreat from its hex, it may battle back against the red infantry unit.

Richard Borg


So I understand...
Starting @ "The hill giant (creature B) risks receiving a Critical Hit (2 dice are rolled)"

So.. 2-hexes for each 'Creatures' retreat flag,instead of one by a 'normal' troop unit.
So.. the 2 retreat hits are 'automatic'_ same as on any unit blocking a retreat .
The 2 dice rolls are the two Crit rolls from the 2 automatic hits?


      
mad-halfling
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Re:Creature confusion Thu, 14 December 2006 16:10
so I'm guessing that in the case of a creature being in one of the trampled hexes and the retreat is >1 hex, the other hex takes a figure damage and the trampled creature takes a crit check. If the creature and unit are still alive, the same thing happens again and again until either
a) the retreat is completed (with crit rolls for the retreating creature as appropr)
b) the unit is destroyed and the remaining retreat hexes can be moved
c) the trampled creature is destroyed and the remaining retreat hexes are moved

yes?
      
DarkPadawan2
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Re:Creature confusion Thu, 14 December 2006 17:48
Mad-Halfling schrieb am Thu, 14 December 2006 16:10

so I'm guessing that in the case of a creature being in one of the trampled hexes and the retreat is >1 hex, the other hex takes a figure damage and the trampled creature takes a crit check. If the creature and unit are still alive, the same thing happens again and again until either
a) the retreat is completed (with crit rolls for the retreating creature as appropr)
b) the unit is destroyed and the remaining retreat hexes can be moved
c) the trampled creature is destroyed and the remaining retreat hexes are moved

yes?


Sounds true for me, good summary!

Dark.
      
Jude
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Re:Creature confusion Thu, 14 December 2006 19:26
Mad-Halfling wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 10:10

so I'm guessing that in the case of a creature being in one of the trampled hexes and the retreat is >1 hex, the other hex takes a figure damage and the trampled creature takes a crit check. If the creature and unit are still alive, the same thing happens again and again until either
a) the retreat is completed (with crit rolls for the retreating creature as appropr)
b) the unit is destroyed and the remaining retreat hexes can be moved
c) the trampled creature is destroyed and the remaining retreat hexes are moved

yes?


Or
d) the trampling creature takes a critical hit for not being able to retreat a hex and dies before finishing the complete retreat?

Jude
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Creature confusion Fri, 15 December 2006 01:34
Jude wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 12:26

Mad-Halfling wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 10:10

so I'm guessing that in the case of a creature being in one of the trampled hexes and the retreat is >1 hex, the other hex takes a figure damage and the trampled creature takes a crit check. If the creature and unit are still alive, the same thing happens again and again until either
a) the retreat is completed (with crit rolls for the retreating creature as appropr)
b) the unit is destroyed and the remaining retreat hexes can be moved
c) the trampled creature is destroyed and the remaining retreat hexes are moved

d) the trampling creature takes a critical hit for not being able to retreat a hex and dies before finishing the complete retreat?

Agreed. These four possibilities seem legit.

The question I still have though is how many dice does the trampled creature roll to check for a critical hit.

a) Is it always 2?
b) It it dependent on the creature trampled or the creature retreating?
c) is it dependent on the number of retreat hexes that cannot be moved?
      
    
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