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bdgza
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Fri, 19 November 2010 19:33
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 19 November 2010 18:01

I would say that for the players who choose not to play Memoir '44 Online, I would appreciate if they didn't continually try to convince me or other players that we're getting robbed in some way or cheated out of our cash! If I choose to pay-to-play and I'm having fun, that's my choice...just like it's their choice not to take part.

The policy is if you are not happy just shut up? The only feedback should be "Pricing is very reasonable, I'm ecstatic!" If people keep saying that, I don't know why the other side can't be heard. We were all waiting for this great experience. All we heard form beta testers is this most wonderful experience straight from promised land, but some people might be severely disappointed with what we got now.

The biggest frustration I have, which I already mentioned, is that there is no honesty about the cost. I can understand Memoir '44 Online will cost money, DoW wants to make a profit. I don't like pay-as-you-play, but I guess it's something I'd have to choose to live with or not. What I am still upset about is the dishonesty about the pricing. People keep posting it's only 1 ingot to play, but it's not. It's clear DoW wants to charge much more than 1 ingot per game with the artificial purchasing of special units that are MEANT to be in the game. It makes me feel like my intelligence is being insulted. If they want to charge 5 ingots per game, let that be the price, fixed. Then I can decide if I want to spend that much on the game or not. By pretending a game is one price, but really it's crippled unless you pay more looks like a scam. Don't pretend to sell a product at a certain price if you really do need the "upgrade." And how much are expansions going to cost then? Is it going to keep inflating? I know what you would reply, I can simply choose to stick to the original 16. But I own expansions, I can play those in VASSAL now.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Fri, 19 November 2010 22:08
bdgza wrote on Fri, 19 November 2010 22:33

rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 19 November 2010 18:01

I would say that for the players who choose not to play Memoir '44 Online, I would appreciate if they didn't continually try to convince me or other players that we're getting robbed in some way or cheated out of our cash! If I choose to pay-to-play and I'm having fun, that's my choice...just like it's their choice not to take part.

The policy is if you are not happy just shut up? The only feedback should be "Pricing is very reasonable, I'm ecstatic!" If people keep saying that, I don't know why the other side can't be heard. We were all waiting for this great experience. All we heard form beta testers is this most wonderful experience straight from promised land, but some people might be severely disappointed with what we got now.


Policy? I'm not at all a policy maker here...I'm just a player like you, though one who doesn't mind the price system. And no, I'm sure that DoW is happy to have feedback from both sides. This is Open Beta and it's here so that they can get feedback from everyone, including you; I did not ask you to 'shut up'.

I did ask you (and others) to refrain from 'trying to convince me' that I'm foolish or stupid for wanting to pay for and continue to play this game. Bart, I get the impression that you're not happy with the Memoir '44 Online game and price Razz because you've taken every opportunity here on the DoW forum and over on the BGG forum to vent about it. Smile You've said several times that you won't be playing this computer version of Memoir '44 and I think I understand your reasons. It seems that you really would like to play this game or you wouldn't be so vocal about it. Razz

Quote:

The biggest frustration I have, which I already mentioned, is that there is no honesty about the cost. I can understand Memoir '44 Online will cost money, DoW wants to make a profit. I don't like pay-as-you-play, but I guess it's something I'd have to choose to live with or not. What I am still upset about is the dishonesty about the pricing. People keep posting it's only 1 ingot to play, but it's not. It's clear DoW wants to charge much more than 1 ingot per game with the artificial purchasing of special units that are MEANT to be in the game. It makes me feel like my intelligence is being insulted. If they want to charge 5 ingots per game, let that be the price, fixed. Then I can decide if I want to spend that much on the game or not. By pretending a game is one price, but really it's crippled unless you pay more looks like a scam. Don't pretend to sell a product at a certain price if you really do need the "upgrade."


I'm not going to worry about the accusation of dishonesty by DoW about the cost because I won't change your mind on that one. However, let's look at the cost of playing Memoir '44 Online.

There are 16 scenarios available right now. You can choose from 2 sides, so there are 32 possible options when you create a battle. Out of those 32 choices, 15 of them will cost you the base price of 1 Ingot because they have no special units or rules. That leaves you with 17 choices that cost more Ingots. Even if we figure that all 17 choices cost 5 ingots (which they don't), you're looking at an average of 3.125 ingots per battle that you play. That doesn't sound very expensive to me! As it turns out, the average cost of each side (if you played every battle available) is 2.21875 Ingots.

Quote:

And how much are expansions going to cost then? Is it going to keep inflating?


That I don't know, but I imagine they'll be a similar price for special units that have to be programed. I'm not going to make my decision about playing Memoir '44 Online now based on what could happen when the expansions come out, though.

I recognize that some players aren't happy with the cost system but the solutions I've heard (including the one that I quoted above) will end up costing players more Ingots than they already have to pay! If we're going to make suggestions for improving Memoir '44 Online, let's at least make them a move in the right direction! Smile

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 19 November 2010 22:51]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Fri, 19 November 2010 22:52
When I have time tomorrow, I'll create a quick little spread sheet that shows the cost of each scenario and what the average cost is so that people can check my math. Cool
      
bdgza
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Fri, 19 November 2010 23:09
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 19 November 2010 22:08

bdgza wrote on Fri, 19 November 2010 22:33

rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 19 November 2010 18:01

I would say that for the players who choose not to play Memoir '44 Online, I would appreciate if they didn't continually try to convince me or other players that we're getting robbed in some way or cheated out of our cash! If I choose to pay-to-play and I'm having fun, that's my choice...just like it's their choice not to take part.

The policy is if you are not happy just shut up? The only feedback should be "Pricing is very reasonable, I'm ecstatic!" If people keep saying that, I don't know why the other side can't be heard. We were all waiting for this great experience. All we heard form beta testers is this most wonderful experience straight from promised land, but some people might be severely disappointed with what we got now.


Policy? I'm not at all a policy maker here...I'm just a player like you, though one who doesn't mind the price system. And no, I'm sure that DoW is happy to have feedback from both sides. This is Open Beta and it's here so that they can get feedback from everyone, including you; I did not ask you to 'shut up'.


As a beta tester you're the closest thing to official that has responded so far. Seems DoW is steering clear of the raving lunatic for now.

rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 19 November 2010 22:08

I did ask you (and others) to refrain from 'trying to convince me' that I'm foolish or stupid for wanting to pay for and continue to play this game. Bart, I get the impression that you're not happy with the Memoir '44 Online game and price Razz because you've taken every opportunity here on the DoW forum and over on the BGG forum to vent about it. Smile You've said several times that you won't be playing this computer version of Memoir '44 and I think I understand your reasons. It seems that you really would like to play this game or you wouldn't be so vocal about it. Razz


I would be perfectly happy to keep VASSAL and not have this online client. I would say it's ok, perhaps decent. It appears to be pretty solid, but I have not seen anything that wows me. I really want to keep playing Memoir '44 the way that makes me happy, because I enjoy Memoir '44 as a game, and because of the DoW products that I have already purchased. I am so far happy with those products, but they are pricey, and the VASSAL element was a factor for me in continued purchases. That is why I am so vocal. And perhaps a busy week at work, while waiting for this supposedly best product since sliced bread helps on the ranting and raving side of things.

rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 19 November 2010 22:08

Quote:

The biggest frustration I have, which I already mentioned, is that there is no honesty about the cost. I can understand Memoir '44 Online will cost money, DoW wants to make a profit. I don't like pay-as-you-play, but I guess it's something I'd have to choose to live with or not. What I am still upset about is the dishonesty about the pricing. People keep posting it's only 1 ingot to play, but it's not. It's clear DoW wants to charge much more than 1 ingot per game with the artificial purchasing of special units that are MEANT to be in the game. It makes me feel like my intelligence is being insulted. If they want to charge 5 ingots per game, let that be the price, fixed. Then I can decide if I want to spend that much on the game or not. By pretending a game is one price, but really it's crippled unless you pay more looks like a scam. Don't pretend to sell a product at a certain price if you really do need the "upgrade."


I'm not going to worry about the accusation of dishonesty by DoW about the cost because I won't change your mind on that one. However, let's look at the cost of playing Memoir '44 Online.

There are 16 scenarios available right now. You can choose from 2 sides, so there are 32 possible options when you create a battle. If I've looked at them right, out of those 32 choices, 17 of them will cost you the base price of 1 Ingot because they have no special units or rules. That leaves you with 15 choices that cost more Ingots. Even if we figure that all 15 choices cost 5 ingots (which they don't), you're looking at an average of 2.875 ingots per battle that you play. That doesn't sound very expensive to me!

Quote:

And how much are expansions going to cost then? Is it going to keep inflating?


That I don't know, but I imagine they'll be a similar price for special units that have to be programed. I'm not going to make my decision about playing Memoir '44 Online now based on what could happen when the expansions come out, though.

I recognize that some players aren't happy with the cost system but the solutions I've heard (including the one that I quoted above) will end up costing players more Ingots than they already have to pay! If we're going to make suggestions for improving Memoir '44 Online, let's at least make them a move in the right direction! Smile

I know that the price in itself is not incredibly high. That is also what I keep saying, it's not just about the price, it's the way it came about. First the shock of pay-as-you-play instead of a fixed fee, which ok, it makes more sense for DoW. But then the impression was 1 ingot for a live opponent game, while it's more than that. I really don't like the elite unit cost more mechanic. I would much rather prefer a higher fixed base price per game. It would not feel like the game is crippled, makes planning a budget much clearer, and most importantly, wouldn't worry me as much for the future. You want to accept the current price because you feel it could be slightly higher now, and accept that it will be much higher on the long run. I love Memoir '44, and if I choose to play this then I am in it for the long run, not for the open beta only. If I say, well, the current price is reasonable for the 16 scenarios, and I give up my VASSAL now, then what do I do when my fears come true and prices double for the first expansions, and triple for the next, etc. I have no reason to believe that this will happen, but neither do I believe it wouldn't, considering the current impression I get.

A price set by DoW to balance cost + profit makes me think, I can afford it or not, but they have to cover cost, and want x% profit, so that is that. If the price is too high I could moan about that. But I don't like the artificial nature of the cost now. There is no added cost when asking for more money for elite units vs normal ones, that only leaves profit, and that worries me.

I do not want to convince you not to play, or not to accept the prices. I know a lot of people are happy with the Memoir '44 Online, but I am worried I am going to lose a lot, and am not happy about that. I was late starting with Memoir, and I have a lot of catching up to do still. I feel if I am not vocal about it soon, it'll be too late. If it matters at all to anyone...
      
bdgza
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Fri, 19 November 2010 23:14
Never mind, I got a reply from Eric at BGG. So that settles it.
      
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Fri, 19 November 2010 23:33
What was that reply?

Could you paste it here?
      
bdgza
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Fri, 19 November 2010 23:48
Vulch wrote on Fri, 19 November 2010 23:33

What was that reply?

Could you paste it here?


"Eric (DoW) on BGG"


Bart,

You are entitled to your own opinion and no one forces anyone to like the game - or play it for that matter - but I am getting tired of your slander and outright accusations on various threads (It's a scam, etc...).

We are very upfront about how the game works and what it costs.

- We clearly state in the User Guide and in the enrollment form before people download the game that this is based on a Pay to Play model that uses Gold Ingots, and that once you run out of your initial 100 Gold Ingots you will have to purchase more if you want to continue playing.

- We make it clear that 1 Gold Ingot in PvP and 2 Gold Ingots in Solo games is the MINIMUM amount it costs you to play. We never said anything else.

- We also clearly state that each scenario, depending on the special rules and/or special units it implements, costs additional Gold Ingots to play as designed.

- These special rules or units, if any, are clearly highlighted along with their total cost, in the user interface of the Game Creation, before you spend any Gold Ingots.

As for figuring out what YOUR actual cost of playing is it is easy, since we give everyone 100 free Gold Ingots to try it out. Just play (well in your case maybe not, since you don't seem to care much for the game, except to rant against its use of Gold Ingots), and once you run out of this initial set of Free Gold Ingots, look in your Player's History at how many games you played with that amount.

The truth is this result will vary since people can play whichever way they want: some will only play Solo, some only F2F, some a mix; some will look at how much each individual scenario costs to minimize their spending, while others will care more about just playing any scenario against someone they enjoy playing with. some will use their Gold Ingots quickly and play back-to-back games for hours on end, while others will only play a game once in a while.

It's precisely for this reason that we offer a variety of packages, at different price points. Depending on a player's play pattern and personal preferences, a game will cost anywhere from pennies to a dime or two at the utmost. Whether this is a good value proposition or not is for everyone to decide for themselves, thanks to the free Gold we provide.

Last not least and to be real clear: Yes, we want to make money. Not only do we want to, but we need to. Because if we didn't, we wouldn't be able to continue developing this game like we have for days, nights and week-ends on end during the past 3+ years.

Eric @ DoW - seriously ticked off by the sense of entitlement that is pervading on the internet sometimes

      
bdgza
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Sat, 20 November 2010 00:56
I posted this final statement on the topic on BGG:
Quote:


As my final post on the matter I'd like to say that I never intended to insult people personally, or attack the Memoir '44 Online product, or mean that DoW is an evil company. My choice of words was strong and has offended Eric, and maybe others. I did not mean to imply that DoW is a company that intends to scam people, or that the Memoir '44 Online is not a well made fun game. I think what I did mean I've repeated plenty by now everywhere, even if it didn't come across right. Everyone should give the beta a go and decide for themselves how much they like it. I would also like to say thanks to DoW for the permission to have a Memoir '44 range of VASSAL modules and extensions all this time, so far I have taken that for granted. I will be very sorry if the module went away.



I've had a PM exchange with Eric and I'm done with the matter now. I still have my concerns, but I regret not being more constructive about them. I'll let it cool for a week and then try to have another look from the beginning.
      
Vortexxx
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Sat, 20 November 2010 04:14
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 05:08

As it turns out, the average cost of each side (if you played every battle available) is 2.21875 Ingots.



Then let's just make every scenario cost 2 or 3 ingots. I know Eric has stated that the ability to toggle on/off the special units give players the freedom to minimize their spending. I would say that players who like to minimize their spending would just play less frequently or play it on Vassal and live with the inconvenience.

For new players to M44 Online, who don't own the actual game:

* When they see their opponent pay extra ingots to opt in for special units, they would assume(incorrectly) that their opponent is buying an advantage to improve their chances of winning. This gives the wrong impression that the game is Pay-To-Win instead of Pay-To-Play

* Some would like the game so much, they'd go out and buy a physical set. Imagine their surprise when they find out that special rules in the rulebook scenarios are there by default.


For people who are already familiar with M44 and sign up for the online game:

* You get people like bdgza and yes me, who feel uncomfortable seeing the original scenarios crippled. By crippled, I mean in terms of historical context and possibly scenario balance. Of course, I understand they can be turned back on by paying the extra ingots. But all this is just friction in trying to have fun and play the game with people, as it was meant to be played. Friction that in the long run halts the initial momentum of excitement.

I really love this online incarnation of M44 and would like for it to succeed. My gut feeling is that variable scenario costing is a bad idea that splinters existing M44 fanbase into 2 factions. Those who support DOW's decision and those who feel like this is a money grab.

Thanks to this, lots of time has been wasted by:

* Disgruntled players who feel they are being upsold unfairly
* Supportive players who argue back with cost analysis/tables
* DOW coming in to clarify matters
* And lastly me, for having to type this longish first post

All this lost time could have been used for improving or playing the game!!!

So hear my plea DOW. Please consider changing to a fixed scenario cost.

Even better, set up a poll and collect some statistics.
      
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Sat, 20 November 2010 15:13
The whole profit vs developement baffles me considering they had to have spent a lot of overhead to develope Small World (not as much as Memoir '44 Online) which is only for the iPad. And as far as the cost vs players go, you would think that Small World would overrun Memoir '44 Online, just because of the size of each target audience.

What do I know, juyst thinkning out loud. Cool

Regardless, I find Eric's response to Bart a little surprising as he does represent DOW...
      
Clexton27
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Sat, 20 November 2010 17:34
Rasmussen states:
Quote:

(with my wife's permission, of course)!


There is a man wise beyond his years.
Laughing
      
argailwall
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Sat, 20 November 2010 19:03
well hello from me, i may not be posting on the forum but i am a dedicated fan of DoW and own almost all their games(except mystery of the abbey because it is out of print in europe and the overlord scenarios for memoir)when i first heard about memoir online i was excited and waited for something like TTR online, 10$ base game, 5$ each expansion, that makes 25$ for all the online experience of TTR you can have for a lifetime, same for a harcore gamer and a casual,with memoir it comes that a hardcore fan will pay 60$ for 3400 points(i include here the bonus 30$) without expansions yet and not for a lifetime, i dont say that the 3400 will end soon, maybe keep for 5 years, but my memoir hard copy costed less and it is there for a lifetime, oh and my friends dont pay to play with me, i dont say that if a player has the online version should his friends play free, but a match costs 2-3 ingots for me and 2-3 for some other guy this thing havent seen it mentioned.

I tried the beta, the game is very good and i love it but this transaction system does not suit me...

It is the first time i feel dissapointed by DoW(and i mean it, i admire every single game i own), and i hope it wont continue with more dissapointments on the future.
      
Mighty Jim 83
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Sun, 21 November 2010 13:40
argailwall wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 18:03

i first heard about memoir online i was excited and waited for something like TTR online, 10$ base game, 5$ each expansion, that makes 25$ for all the online experience of TTR you can have for a lifetime.


But each expansion for TTR is 1 map. Whereas each scenario for Memoir is 1 Map. As nice as this model would have been, I don't think it's a realistic comparison to the number of man-hours involved in creating e-versions of the game.
      
argailwall
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Sun, 21 November 2010 19:38
since i am a programmer i can guess that it is one function created for each terain type(as it is one rule created on the board game and they dont charge more for each different map)so you write the function and you can use it as many times as you like on different maps, and lets not joke ourselves it is not some high-end graphic game(which i dont want it to be cause its a board game) to cost the developers so much.

oh and one more thing,charging for beta testing???? that must be the first time it happens, DoW gets beta testers not only for free but charges them too to test the game more than the 100 first points... that must be a guiness record...
      
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Re:Briefing at 21:00 (Normandy Time) Sun, 28 November 2010 14:28
Hi everybody
I am too shock to the cost of playing : the gimmick of extra cost for Rangers that is a feature in a game, the cost of playing a beta version ! That requires some self confidences (G rating words) ! Dont forget your competitors are computer games that costs nothing to have access to multiplayer fun like Company of Heroes, where the games are more even and feature sound and action ! And, is it me or once you dont have to set up the board i becamed amazed by how fast and uneven a game is ? The randomness of cards and dice becomes even more prevalent when you get creamed by a lucky !?!#@ of a computer...
      
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