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SMP-bassie
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NC 2007 - all information and rules Wed, 15 August 2007 15:44
Hi all,

First of all: RFAD and erps, do you have time and kindness to translate the short form of the rules in French and German? (You may also translate this posting, but that would merely be a "nice to have".) If yes, please do so in a reply to this posting, if not, let me know.

It's time to get NC started. This posting is all information regarding NC 2007 and the next one contains a short outline of the rules. Any comments from you can lead to changes in the information/rules until Sunday, the 26 of August. As of that date, I am back to player status and only our TD can make changes yet.

Our TD is thadd, she might ask for assistance yet (last year it was spudamon), I think we can leave that to her discretion. I will ask her today to start an organisational thread in which the captains can register their teams and keep track of the scores. thadd can use that thread to publish a schedule of play and keep track of the results and make announcements. I will ask DoW to give thadd a temporary account "TD-NC07" or something similar.

The rules are the same as last year's (to be read here), with the following exceptions:
- Whenever the registrational thread is mentioned, read "organisational thread".
- All dates are one day ahead, for example we start Friday the 7th of September instead of Friday the 8th;
- The changes and additions to be read below. In the next posting follows a short version of the rules meant for all participants. The captains should inform themselves of the full version.

Changes in and additions to the rules of 2006

1. Each match during round robin is a best-of-seven. Possible results are 4-3, 4-2, 4-1, and 4-0.

2. Each match during knock-out is a best-of-nine. Possible results are 5-4, 5-3, 5-2, 5-1, and 5-0.

3. Anti-Cheating Trust:
- Each player plays with his/her personal, unshared account.
- Each player plays with his/her strongest account (overall).
- Each player plays alone. Any contact with others (other than one's opponent) during the game that has to do with that current game is forbidden.

Some questions (pre-)answered

Q1. What about democracy? You promised a discussion group!
True, this isn't democratic. I did consider a board of players to decide together about the rules, but I feared endless discussions about not always meaningful details. I know better ways to spend my time. Besides, after the success of 2005 and 2006 I saw no need for changes, other than the number of games per match. By the way, if you convince me that something needs to be added or changed in the coming one and a half weeks, I will do so.

Q2. Why so many games per match?
It felt good to have best-of-7 and then best-of-9 in knock-out during SPWC. I think it does decrease the luck factor. I don't think best-of-11 or higher would bring substantially more evidence about the stronger player and I didn't want to force participants to spend the whole evening to play a match.

Q3. Why not a shorter tournament?
If we have more than 10 teams, the duration of the tournament will be 9 or 11 weeks including a week "rest" in between round robin and knockout. That is 2-2.5 months. Doesn't seem too long to me. A shorter duration would limit the group size to four, which would mean half of the teams would only play three rounds. I don't think that is what NC is about.

Q4. Why is 10 the maximum number of players per team?
I must admit that I think 8 is more reasonable. But what if 10 people of a specific country would like to participate? Either you get two too small teams or two people have to be disappointed...

Q5. Why don't you follow erps's rules proposal?
Because the rules of last year worked fine. Besides, a good TD can do quick rulings for most cases and will ask the help of the captains if necessary.

Q6. Why can we not freely choose whom to play with?
Then it would not be a Nations Cup.
More specifically, I don't want the situation that the best two players of Country A join forces with some other players whose country is not represented yet. So, in the specific case of MiguelMarques, he is free to start or join a team of people whose country is not represented. I do believe there are enough possibilities yet. In a case that a player of Country A is denied by the only team of Country A, the TD is free to make exceptions.

Q7. What is the need of an Anti-Cheating Trust? I have never cheated!
I wanted to exclude each possible doubt about what is regarded cheating. I know, sadly, I can't prevent it from happening, but the least I can do is to inform possible cheaters that their behaviour nor their presence is wanted during NC.

Have fun in NC! May all nations with availability of TTR join!

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 15 August 2007 21:16]

      
SMP-bassie
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NC 2007 - rules Wed, 15 August 2007 15:47
Short version of the rules for NC07 for all participants

S0. Introduction
The rules are finalised as of August 26th. Any addition or problem arising after this date that cannot be solved by applying this document will be decided upon under the sole discretion of the TD (thadd). She has the right to cast votes among the captains in order to do a ruling. This thread is meant to give a complete overview of how NC07 will look like. For any information during the tournament I refer to the organisational thread which will be opened by the TD before the end of August.

S1. Transnational teams
The Nations Cup is a competition for teams with players of the same nationality, with some exceptions.

A. Players who live, study or work in country A and have nationality B may play for either A or B.
B. Players with a double nationality may choose for which country they play.
C. A team formed by players working for DoW may be transnational.
D. A team formed by countries not represented otherwise in the tournament may be transnational. Note: if country A has a team, there may not be another team formed by inhabitants of country A and inhabitants of not otherwise represented country B.

S2. Schedule of play
Once the draw for the next round is posted (on Thursday or Friday in the week preceding that round) the players can play their games (they can make arrangements by PM). The captain must have the results of the match before the end of the week of that round. Example: the first round, of which the draw will be posted latest on Friday 7th of September, must be finished latest on Sunday the 16th of September. It is allowed to start arranging and playing a new round before the previous round has been finished.

S3. Duration of a match
A. Each match during round robin is a best-of-seven. Possible results are 4-3, 4-2, 4-1, and 4-0.
B. Each match during knock-out is a best-of-nine. Possible results are 5-4, 5-3, 5-2, 5-1, and 5-0.

S4. Anti-Cheating Trust:
- Each player plays with his/her personal, unshared account.
- Each player plays with his/her strongest account (overall).
- Each player plays alone. Any contact with others (other than one's opponent) during the game that has to do with that current game is forbidden.

S5. Nature of the games
A. 1v1;
B. US map;
C. Rated;
D. Observable.

S6. Anti-Bot Trust
In a game between player A and B, if B is replaced by a bot, A waits till B returns and after that the game resumes, no matter what the bot did. Special cases:

1. After about 5 minutes (give or take), if B hasn't returned, A leaves the game. B has to make sure the game is resumed within 24 hours. If not, the TD rules:
A. A wins if B hasn't put enough effort in rescheduling the game;
B. The game is annulled if both players express the wish to do so, or if the TD rules that no one can be blamed (if neither of the players could find time, for example);
C. B wins if and only if the TD is convinced that A deliberately procastinated the resuming of the game.

2. In case A continues to play against the bot, the game is annulled if A can convince B or the TD that he didn't play on deliberately. PLAYER A can't win the game anymore.

3. In case both players are disconnected, the game has to be resumed in 24 hours. If not, the TD rules according to the situation where only B was disconnected. In this case both players are treated equally.

S7. Miscellaneous
A. It is not allowed to add players to a team after the start of the tournament unless the TD decides otherwise (mostly in case of emergency). A player can only be registered to one team.
B. Guests are not allowed to play, since they cannot start games.
C. In case of a dispute, one of the involved captains sends a PM to the TD with a copy to the other captain. The decision will be under the discretion of the TD. She will inform both captains by PM about their decision and post it in the organisational thread if necessary.
D. Players are not allowed to change their names during the tournament.

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 15 August 2007 21:17]

      
psteinx
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Re:NC 2007 - rules Wed, 15 August 2007 18:05
Very minor clarification:

I would change

"Each player plays alone. Any contact with others during the game that has to do with that current game is forbidden."

to

"Each player plays alone. Any contact with players (other than one's opponent) during the game that has to do with that current game is forbidden."

      
SMP-bassie
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Re:NC 2007 - rules Wed, 15 August 2007 21:18
psteinx corrected

I would change

"Each player plays alone. Any contact with others during the game that has to do with that current game is forbidden."

to

"Each player plays alone. Any contact with players (other than one's opponent) during the game that has to do with that current game is forbidden."

Thanks, done
      
RFAD - Saint-Emilion
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Re:NC 2007 - Règlement en Français Wed, 15 August 2007 22:47
Translation in FRENCH


Je ne garantis pas l'exactitude à 100% et il y a quelques commentaires perso mais bon (desolé je n'ai pas pu m'empêcher, je les ai mis en italique...)
Dans l'ensemble voila ce que ça devrait donner (et si quelqu'un voit un contresens flagrant ou une precision oubliés, merci de me le dire je corrigerai) :


C'est le moment de débuter la Nation Cup. Ce message contient toutes les informations concernant la Nation Cup 2007 et le suivant contient quelques précisions.
Tous les commentaires concernant les changements que l'on voudrait apporter à ces règles doivent être fais avant le 26 août, date ou seront arrêtées les règles définitives.
Après cette date, je (= bassie, qui a redigé le message que je traduis) redeviendrai un joueur "normal" et seul le nouveau Directeur du Tournoi ( plus communément nommé "Tournament Director" et abregé en "TD" ) aura le pouvoir de les changer.

Notre TD sera Thadd (note de RFAD : une joueuse polyglotte qui parle parfaitement français et est super sympa - presque autant que Leachris, c'est dire Wink euh pour ceux qui ne la connaissent pas ou qui en douteraient c'est un compliment Laughing ) qui pourra avoir des assistants pour l'aider (l'année dernière Spudamon avait rempli ce rôle).
Je pense que nous pouvons laisser cela à sa discretion et je lui demanderai aujourd'hui d'ouvrir un sujet intitulé "organisation de la NC 2007" ou chaque capitaine pourra enregistrer son équipe et annoncer les scores des matchs.
Thadd utilisera ce sujet pour publier le programme de la competition, les classement et eventuellement communiquer les changements de regles.
Je vais demander à DoW si il est possible d'octroyer à Thadd un compte nommé "TD-NC07" ou quelque chose de similaire.

Les règles sont dans l'ensemble les mêmes que l'année dernière ( que vous pouvez retrouver ICI), sauf lorsque :
- le sujet "organisation" est mentionné : dans ce cas là il faudra vous reporter à ce dernier ( si si Razz )
- Toutes les dates doivent être decalées d'un jour : par exemple si on parlait du vendredi 8 septembre (2006), il faudra lire le vendredi 7 septembre (2007)
- Les changements et ajouts que vous lirez ci-dessous. Dans le message suivant vous trouverez une version "resumée" des règles qui devra être connue de TOUS les participants. Les capitaines devront eux connaitre la version complète.

Changements et Ajouts par rapport aux Règles de la NC 2006

1. Chaque match durant le round-robin se joue au meilleur des 7 manches. Les résultats possibles sont donc 4-3, 4-2, 4-1 ou 4-0.

2. Chaque match durant le tableau final se joue au meilleur des 9 manches. Les résultats possibles sont donc 5-4, 5-3, 5-2, 5-1 ou 5-0.

3. Regle Anti-Fraude :
- Chaque joueur joue avec son propre compte DoW.
- Chaque joueur joue avec son compte le plus fort (quoi ? certains ont plusieurs comptes ??? Rolling Eyes )
- Chaque joueur joue SEUL. Pendant le match tout contact avec un autre joueur que son adversaire est INTERDIT.

Quelques questions et leurs "pré-reponses" (bon en gros voila la Foire Aux Questions) :

Q1. Et la démocratie, bordel ? Vous aviez parlé de discussion en groupe...
C'est vrai, ce n'est pas très democratique. J'aurais bien étudié toutes les règles avec tous les joueurs mais j'ai eu peur que l'on parte dans des discussions sans fin au sujet de détails pas toujours signicatifs. Entre nous, j'ai d'autres façons d'occuper mon temps libre Wink
De plus, après les succès de 2005 et de 2006 je n'ai vu aucun besoin de changement, autre que le nombre de manche par match. D'ailleurs, si vous me convainquez que quelque chose doit être ajouté ou changé dans les 10 prochains jours, je le ferai sans problème Smile.


Q2. POurquoi autant de manches par match ??? les "bons" flippent ou quoi ???
Il est apparu que le "Best Of 7" puis le "Best Of 9" marchait très bien lors du championbnat individuel qui vient de se conclure. Je pense que cela permet d'éliminer une part du facteur chance et je ne pense pas que le "Best of 11" (ou plus) apporterait un changement plus significatif.
De plus, je n'ai pas voulu forcer les participants à passer toute leur soirée devant l'ordi pour jouer un match (Note de RFAD : ça c'est à voir car un best of 7 contre certains c'est 4h de reflexion assurée...) .

Q3. Et pourquoi pas un tournoi plus court ? on n'a pas que ça a faire si ???
Si nous avons plus de 10 équipes, la durée du tournoi sera comprise entre 9 et 11 semaines en comptant la semaine "off" entre la fin du round-robin et le debut du tableau en élimination directe.
Cela correspond à 2 mois et demi de compétition (ou un peu moins) et cela ne me semble pas si long que ça.
Un tournoi plus court ne serait possible qu'en faisant des groupes de 4 équipes avec 2 sortants ce qui ferait que la moitié des équipes ne joueraient que 3 rencontres... Je ne pense pas que ce soit dans l'esprit de la Nation Cup ( Note de RFAD : ahhh voila quelque chose ou je suis d'accord Youpiiii Very Happy ).

Q4. Pourquoi 10 joueurs max par équipes ? si on veut être 420 ça derange qui ???
Personnellement, je pense que 8 personnes pour 5 matchs par semaine devrait suffir. Mais nous avons mis le max à 10 personnes car si un pays à 10 joueurs, cela ne suffit pas pour faire deux équipes et donc laisserait 2 joueurs sur le carreau (Note de Xav : oui et alors, en quoi cela repond il a la question ? j'ai du louper un épisode).

Q5. Pourquoi ne pas utiliser les règles que proposait ERPS ?
( Note de RFAD : si quelqu'un se pose la question c'est qu'il n'a pas lu les règles de ERPS mais bon, je vais quand même traduire la reponse )
Parce que les règles de l'année dernière fonctionnaient très bien. En outre, notre super TD pourra prendre des décisions rapides si un probleme se pose et qu'il n'est pas prévu dans le reglement (si besoin avec l'aide des capitaines)

Q6. Pourquoi ne peut-on pas choisir librement l'équipe dans laquelle on va jouer ???
Car ça ne serait plus la Nation Cup (bah oui, la coupe des nations... )
Plus specialement, je ne veux pas voir un truc du genre : les 2 meilleurs joueurs d'un pays (ayant deja une équipe officielle) se joignent à d'autres joueurs qui n'ont pas d'équipe nationale pour créer une nouvelle équipe.
Dans le cas special de MiguelMarques, il est libre de rejoindre l'équipe de son pays ou celle des joueurs n'ayant pas d'équipe nationale (Note de RFAD : je n'ai pas suivi l'histoire mais bon... de toute façon a part les français personne ne voudrait de moi donc ça me concerne pas Laughing ... ).
Dans le cas ou un joueur est renié par la SEULE equipe representant son pays, il peut demander au TD la possibilité de rejoindre une autre équipe (ce qui lui sera accordé ou non).

Q7. C'est quoi cette regle "Anti-Fraude" ? je n'ai jamais triché ! (et oui, mais la parano de certains "bons" joueurs, vous savez pas ce que c'est..)
Je veux qu'il n'y ait aucun doute possible sur ce sujet. Malheureusement, je sais qu'il est impossible d'empêcher la fraude mais le minimum que l'on puisse faire est d'informer les tricheurs que leur comportement ne sera pas accepté et qu'il sont indésirables dans cette compétition.

Eclatez vous durant cette Nation Cup ! J'espère qu'un maximum d'équipes sera présente debut septembre Very Happy

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 16 August 2007 19:13]

      
RFAD - Saint-Emilion
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Re:NC 2007 - Règlement Simplifié en Français Wed, 15 August 2007 23:08
Version Simplifiée des Règles de la Nation Cup :
TOUS les participants à la compétition sont censés connaitre (et accepter) ces règles.


S0. Introduction
Les règles n'évolueront plus après le 16 aout. Tout ajout ou changement après le 26 aout ne pourra être fait que par Thadd (la directrice du tournoi Smile ). Pour cela elle aura le droit de demander un vote des capitaines mais pourra aussi decider toute seule... .
Ce sujet sert a donner une vision complète de ce que sera la NC 2007. POur toutes information durant le tournoi, il faudra vous referer au sujet que Thadd (=TD-NC2007) ne va pas tarder à créer.

S1. Equipe Internationale
La Nation Cup est une competition par équipe dont les joueurs ont la même nationalité, à quelques exceptions :

1. Les joueurs qui vivent, étudient ou trvaillent dans un pays A et ont la nationalité B peuvent jouer avec l'équipe A ou l'équipe B.
2. Les joueurs qui qui ont la double nationalité peuvent choisir le pays avec lequel ils vont jouer.
3. une équipe formée de joueurs qui travaillent pour DoW peut être internationale.
4. Une équipe formée par des joueurs de pays qui ne sont pas representer dans le tournoi peut être internationale.
Note: si le pays A a une équipe, il ne pourra pas y avoir une autre équipe constituée par des habitants du pays A et des habitants d'un pays B.

S2. Organisation des matchs
Une fois que le tableau des matchs de la semaine est publié (ce qui se fera le jeudi ou le vendredi précédent la semaine "officielle") les joueurs peuvent faire leur match (ils ne sont donc pas obligé d'attendre le lundi).
En regle générale, ils s'ecrivent un message personnel ou se croisent dans le lobby pour convenir d'une (ou plusieurs) date(s)
Les capitaines doivent poster les resultats de leurs joueurs avant la fin de la semiane de compétition.
Par exemple, le 1er "round" debutera le 7 septembre et doit être finir AU PLUS TARD le 16 septembre.

S3. Durée des Matchs
- Chaque match durant le round-robin se joue au meilleur des 7 manches. Les résultats possibles sont donc 4-3, 4-2, 4-1 ou 4-0.
- Chaque match durant le tableau final se joue au meilleur des 9 manches. Les résultats possibles sont donc 5-4, 5-3, 5-2, 5-1 ou 5-0.


S4. Anti-Cheating Trust:
- Chaque joueur joue avec son propre compte DoW.
- Chaque joueur joue avec son compte le plus fort
- Chaque joueur joue SEUL. Pendant le match tout contact avec un autre joueur que son opposant est INTERDIT.

S5 - Nature des matchs
* 1 contre 1;
* Carte USA ;
* Classées ;
* Observable.


S6. Anti-Bot Trust
Dans un match entre les joueurs A et B, si A est rempacé par un robot, B doit attendre le retour de A et ensuite le jeu reprend bien qu'un robot soit apparu.

Cas speciaux :

1. Si après 5 minutes le joueur A n'est pas revenu, le joueur B quitte la partie. A doit alors tout faire pour que le jeu reprenne dans les 24h. Si ce n'est pas le cas le conseil des capitaines se réunit :
A. B gagne si A n'a pas fait assez d'efforts pour reprogrammer la partie ;
B. Le partie est annulée si les deux joueurs en expriment le désir ou si le conseil des capitaines décide qu'aucun des deux joueurs ne peut être blamé (si aucun des deux joueurs ne peux trouver le temps de refaire la partie par exemple) ;
C. B gagne si et seulement si le TD est convaincu qu'A procastinated (desolé je sais aps traduire) délibérément la reprise du jeu.

2. Dans le cas ou le joueur A continue à jouer contre le robot, la partie est annulée si A peut convaincre B ou le conseil des capitaines qu'il n'a pas joué déliberement. De toute manière, A ne peut pas remporter la partie.

3. Dans le cas ou les deux joueurs sont deconnectés, la partie doit être reprise dans les 24 heures. Si ce n'est pas le cas, le conseil des capitaines reglera le probleme de la même façon que dans le cas ou seul B a été deconnecté (cf ci-dessus) les deux joueurs étant traité sur un pied d'égalité.


S7. Divers II
- Il n'est pas permis d'ajouter des joueurs à une équipe après le début du tournoi à moins que le conseil des capitaines en décide autrement (la plupart du temps en cas d'urgence). Un joueur peut seulement être... dans une équipe (on s'en doute mais bon...) .
- Les joueurs invités ne peuvent pas participer, puisqu'ils ne peuvent pas ouvrir des parties (et que si il y avait deux invités qui devaient jouer ensemble, ça serait compliqué !).
- Les Capitaines peuvent démisionner temporairement ou de manière permanente pendant le tournoi en le signalant dans le sujet "REGISTRational" ou ils designeront le capitaine remplaçant.
- Si une équipe ne peut pas finir un rond, elle est forfait pour tous les matchs non joués et perd toutes les parties qui n'ont pas été encore joués.
- Pour faire le classement à l'issu du round robin on prend : le nombre de rencontre gagnées. En cas d'égalité il sera regardé le nombre de matchs gagnés puis le nombre de parties gagnées et enfin le resultat direct entre les deux équipes.
- En cas de conflit, un des capitaines impliqués envoie au TD (Thadd) un P.M. avec une copie à l'autre capitaine. Elle informera les deux capitaines de la décision et la publmiera dans le registrationel Thread si nécéssaire.
- Plusieures équipes par pays sont autoriséees.
- Chaque équipe est libre de choisir son nom. Par défaut, les équipes auront pour nom celui du pays de leurs membres
- Les joueurs ne sont pas autorisés à changer de nom pendnat la durée du tournoi.

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 16 August 2007 18:51]

      
*player261455
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Thu, 16 August 2007 15:15
Hello,
I changed the old TD account name into TD-NC2007, please DoW, could you put it back into a player status account? Thanks!
This account will be shared by Shamogi and me.

thadd
      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - rules Fri, 17 August 2007 09:21
Hi

bassie schrieb am Wed, 15 August 2007 21:18

psteinx corrected

I would change

"Each player plays alone. Any contact with others during the game that has to do with that current game is forbidden."

to

"Each player plays alone. Any contact with players (other than one's opponent) during the game that has to do with that current game is forbidden."

Thanks, done



It's only a minor flaw, but last year we had some cases when one player lost connection for a long time and informed his/her captain or another team member and they tried to contact the opponent to abandon the game (leave it) and play an hour later or so. I think this should be allowed in the case of an emergency. You never should dicuss the game play, that's all.

bye, erps
      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Tue, 21 August 2007 15:30
Hi

Please all captains: For the registration thread, ADD the player IDs of all team members in this post.

The 2007 ranking is available at

http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~erps/zugranking/rank ing.html

At the moment with the old datas from last year. Data will be renewed if a team is registering.

Thank you.

bye, erps

EDIT: Question to bassie: Should the Ranking be based on the best SIX or best FIVE players of each team? Last year we said that 6 was the minimum number for a team (substitution), so 6 seemed okay.

[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 21 August 2007 15:42]

      
SMP-bassie
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Tue, 21 August 2007 16:25
erps's question

Should the Ranking be based on the best SIX or best FIVE players of each team? Last year we said that 6 was the minimum number for a team (substitution), so 6 seemed okay.

That number was based on the thought that each team would need at least 6 players. But actually it is arbitrary, 5 or 6. 7 isn't really possible because there might be 6-player teams.
      
Mr Bean
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Tue, 21 August 2007 16:30
well, if it's theoretically possible to have a team of 5, it would seem wise to have the ranking also decided on the (best) 5.
      
Zeno
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Tue, 21 August 2007 19:31
If you wish to push people towards having six players, in order to handle problems that arise, then you could try a scheme such as:

For teams with only five players, add a sixth score which is either the lowest rated score for a team member or 1500, whichever is lower.

I assume we are using overall rather than US+2P, since there may be some people from the past (Tofra) who are still provisional on the new rankings. Still, I would like to see that confirmed.
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Wed, 22 August 2007 11:20
Zeno proposes and assumes

For teams with only five players, add a sixth score which is either the lowest rated score for a team member or 1500, whichever is lower.

I assume we are using overall rather than US+2P, since there may be some people from the past (Tofra) who are still provisional on the new rankings. Still, I would like to see that confirmed.

OK and confirmed

      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Wed, 22 August 2007 12:59
Hi

Ok, it's done. Average 6 but with less you got Min(1500,Lowest ELO) added for the missing "players".

bye, erps
      
DrakeStorm
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Thu, 23 August 2007 01:19
erps wrote on Wed, 22 August 2007 03:59

Hi

Ok, it's done. Average 6 but with less you got Min(1500,Lowest ELO) added for the missing "players".

bye, erps




So basically you are saying teams with 5 people should just add some random person who isn't going to play that has a rating higher than 1500? There's no clause that says all players on a team have to play, right? Why not just use top 5 scores?

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 23 August 2007 07:45]

      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Thu, 23 August 2007 11:06
Hi

I am doing what i was told. Bassie is the chief.

And of course it is an anti homeland rule so far Wink We europeans love to stick together.

Serious, i remember that the rules said once, minimum number of players of one team is six. However we have to sort this out till 1st of semptember i think.

bye, erps
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Thu, 23 August 2007 11:35
Well, to me this issue is certainly something I don't want to dwell upon. I can vaguely recall the 6-player minimum as well, simply to prevent trouble in case someone is unavailable for some unforseen reason. And yes, Drake, you're right, you could add a "ghost" player. There is no obligation to play. But you might want to seriously consider a 6th player. I don't feel like having matches cancelled in case one of the Homeland Security team members becomes unavailable (hospital, marriage crisis, you name it; it happens to all of us).

It was 6 last year, no, there is not much reason for that. Neither is there much reason to change it. And I'd like to stick to the "no rule changing unless the gain is significant" motto.
      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Thu, 23 August 2007 13:23
Hi

Please ask DoW to stick some of the threads at top of the forum. At least Registration and Organisation should be at top (Rules also?).

Thanx

bye, erps
      
OLE sebbo
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 14:56
Hi,

im sorry to say that i dont like the new transnational team. There are 5 dutch players in that team, so whats the argument for building a team with players of other nations?
In my opinion this is against the rules.

cheers
sebbo
      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 15:31
sebbo wrote on Fri, 24 August 2007 08:56

Hi,

im sorry to say that i dont like the new transnational team. There are 5 dutch players in that team, so whats the argument for building a team with players of other nations?
In my opinion this is against the rules.

cheers
sebbo



I agree.
      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 15:36
Hi,

It's seven (maybe eight) dutch (or allowed) players, not 5!

Clearly, if it is possible to form the first team for a country, it is not allowed to add "mercs" Wink.

So i suggest, find a few more dutch players (or switzerland/finland players) and build a full dutch team and a second team (seems okay for me). You already have 10 players.

bye, erps

      
thadd
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 17:54
erps schrieb am Thu, 23 August 2007 06:23



Please ask DoW to stick some of the threads at top of the forum. At least Registration and Organisation should be at top (Rules also?).




Asked for it already, hopefully it will be done soon (Registration thread, Organisational thread, and Rules) - Thanks DoW


Now, concerning the Transnational Team, they have 6 dutch players (not counting the leles), but I got their schedule, they won't be able to play every week, as many aren't availibe. The leles are only substitues, as they will be also unable to play for a while.

A complete finnish and swiss team seems unlikely. Even combined it's doesn't work.

So at the moment I don't see a reason to not legitimate this team; we will see if there are other dutch (or swiss or finnish) players showing up. But so long, I didn't get any requests.

      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 18:11
Hi

I disagree.

So we can build our german team with Whitetrain, Womble, erps, sebbo, Rudi, Mason (all top 20 to 40 players) and then ask some top player (or ex-number one) from a small country to join us?? This is really absurd. This is nearly the same as to say form your team freely.

There is a thread "NC Players without nation". There is the place to find other players to form a team. Why not finland/switz/portugese and so on? Nobody stated it has to be only 2 nations together.

The dutch have the manpower to found a team. That's the point! That there are not enough fin/switz players so far is another problem and has nothing to do with the first issue.

I understand that they like to form a team with friends and people they met last weekend and it seems okay to allow Jac to enter the dutch team (i see a connection), but ask yourself: How would you react if Anu_ was playing together with Homeland, RedTGV, GTS or our team?

bye, erps Confused
      
streetcar-Endstation
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 18:39
first time i agree with you, erps!

the dutch are stronger than austrian and spain together. it is not in the sense of NC when austria and spain would join just to improve their chances.

And if i understand the rules right, it is impossible for all other dutchies, swiss and fins to join any other team.

Such a constellation, bassie, ruins NC, i think.

greetings

street
      
OLE sebbo
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 18:40
erps schrieb am Fri, 24 August 2007 18:11

Hi

I disagree.




Me too.

Sorry but this is against what i supposed to be the spirit of this turnament.

cheers
sebbo
      
Anu_
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 19:21
Hi everyone

Just got back home from 8 days trip and I saw all these postings about the team I am / was supposed to play. And there is only one thing to think about this discussion: I am the only and a big problem here. As I see it, it was not against the rules, all I wanted was to play NC. I asked first, if it is allowed for me to join this team.... but now when I see peoples reaction - I will make it simple: I will not play. No more problems for anyone.

All I am thinking now is, that if I never reached rank 1, would people react the same?

To all of you - I wish a great NC

Greets,

Anu

PS. Sorry team, but seems this is the only way to solve the problem, wish you good luck in the tournament.
      
Mr Bean
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 19:28
i didn't write or really study the rules, so i'm not 100% sure if there is a problem there. the TD was asked and thought it was ok.

about the dutch team, i think you are wrong about how easy we can form a team.

we tried that first (of course), but we have 5 originals (Annabel, bassie, Patterson, youki & myself) and of these at least 2 have periods in NC they are unavailable.
goan does not really want to play (2player) but offered to play as a last resort.

on that basis, we would not be able to enter a team.

it was only then we started looking for other possibilities and sort of naturally arrived at another team that was decimated from last year (FinShUI). that's all, really.




Just saw that Anu reacted while i was typing this.
i sure hope you can play, Anu. it would be a real shame if you were excluded from the tournament.
i would even rather see you as an opponent than not at all Razz .

and you're probably right with the point you make: if you were an unknown or lowly rated there might not have been such reactions and we would still love to have you on the team!

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 24 August 2007 19:36]

      
OLE Masimo
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 19:35
Hi -
i see your point with the dutch/finish team and do personally think that you are right. The rules do not allow it.

BUT - last year you all allowed Peter to join a nondutch team - even though there was a dutch team. He could even choose the team he wanted (better - that wanted him Twisted Evil )

Now this year it looks as if there was no finish team ..... so why should Anu not get the same possibility you opened Peter?

We are not consequent to that point. Rules must be clarified. What team could Anu play in then if there is NO finish team? -

And then please look at the "Transnational team" that is beeing formed. How many dutch/belgian/austrian/spanish...? players are about to play there that could play in a regular nations team? Do they have other rights to form such a team just because they are no TOPTOPS?

I think we need to clear this rule and then try not to bend it.
      
streetcar-Endstation
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 19:37
hi anu!

I think you have to play!!! NC without you is unimaginable!!

It is just the elitist character this team has. If you are Nr. 500, no one would say a word. but a mixture of three nations just that all players can be top 20 makes no fun for others.

greetings

street
      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 19:57
Hi

This is not against Anu, she should play this NC for heaven's sake. I was against transnational teams from the beginning. If this is a nations competition, only nations should enter. And it means that if you are the only player of your country, it's clearly not strong enough to win such a team tournament. Last year the spain did a great job, they had 1400- player that now play in the 1600+ league. In my opinion it is the duty for every nation to ask as many players from their own country to join a team, even down to 1100! Don't call me an elitist, the whole concept of transnational teams is elitism...

I understand that there is not much response from low ranked players and so i can agree with the possibility to form transnational teams together. But not for completed teams with the necessary player number. And don't come with the schedule. If you are not able to play in these weeks, don't join a team. What is this? We all send our time schedule to the TD, saying we can't play as often as we want... We need clear rules for this because otherwise the same question will arise again and again and the decision will not be the same the next time.

Imho a team is closed for other nationality the moment there are 6 players (or 5, we have to decide that) from one country in this team together. And i see 7 dutch players (Lele_J is allowed to play for the dutch).

Still there is the NC meat market and the other thread, join there.

And yes, of course, it is not helping that the dutch team is one of the strongest yet and together with Anu it would be even stronger.

bye, erps
      
Anu_
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 20:01
This had nothing to do with anyones ranking, only getting together players who are not able to make a team of their own country.

But when I have been playing this game this long and I know lot of wonderful people here, I do not want to cause any problems and dont want that people are starting to think negative about me. Concidering all this - I just dont see any other choice than not to play.

Anu
      
SYN Stephan1972
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 20:03
Just to clarify, the transnational team will include members from Finland, UK/Australia, Singapore, Belgium, Portugal. There are no teams from these countries, nor could there be realistically. I really think the rules should allow a transnational team like this, otherwise none of us could participate.

I also think it would be great shame to lose Anu_ from the Nation's Cup! I think Anu_ should be allowed to play in the Dutch team. Otherwise, Anu_ you are very welcome to join our team.

Best wishes,

Stephan

      
thadd
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 20:08
See rule 3.1.4.

Quote:

4. A team formed by countries not represented otherwise in the tournament may be transnational. Note: if country A has a team, there may not be another team formed by inhabitants of country A and inhabitants of not otherwise represented country B.


there won't be a swiss team, nor a finnish team. Both together don't make a team either (no comments to join from pacmon, rogue).

It's not against the rule to form a transnational team.

There would be the option of Anu joining the international team, however I understand that Anu won't join it out of personal reasons, and I will respect those.

You all know, that I see this tournament as something being fun, I try hard to put everything under the reglementations.

If you have a problem that Anu plays in this team, then fine, we will find another solution. But it's a pity to rule in a way, where no dutch or swiss or finnish (or other countries) players will be represented.

It's easy for the germans and americans to judge that way, you are a big majority in this community, but I try to represent the minorities who also have the right to participate in any case.

Just a comment to streetcar, you are right, but I don't see it as an elitist team, they are all in the top 100 sure, but there will be german, french and american teams (as the austrian team) who hardly get out of the top 50. It is an elistist tournament anyway.





      
OLE sebbo
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 20:25
Ok, i started this discussion, i think i have to clearify some things:

First of all, this has nothing to do with Anu or her rank! I would have written the same, if there would be a 1300 player.

For me it looked like this: There are 5 dutch players, who played the last two years in a dutch team, and now they nominate players of 3 other nations (i thought Annabel is a british player) for their team.

After talking to Marie and Masimo, things are clearer now for me. And Masimo is right, saying that last year Peter was allowed to play in an american team, so we have a precedence here. We cannot deny players to join teams of different countries anymore.

The rules are clear in this point, but we made exceptions in the past, so i think we should discuss this and made fix rules for the future! If we made exceptions for this rule, then we can make the same with all other rules....And im glad, that im not the TD in this case Wink

For now i think, the TD has to rule, and she did. So its ok for me.

And sorry, the argument " i dont have time to play" is absurd. Bassie appointed the date by himself, so why did he so if his team has no time to play in this period?

To resume it short and clear: we made exceptions in the past, so the TD has to rule, but we should fix the rules for the future!

cheers
sebbo
      
Mr Bean
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 20:42
sebbo wrote on Fri, 24 August 2007 20:25


And sorry, the argument " i dont have time to play" is absurd. Bassie appointed the date by himself, so why did he so if his team has no time to play in this period?




sebbo,
whatever time of the year, there would probably be some of a group of 5 to 8 who could not guarantee being available for 2 months continually. there are other things in life besides TTR, such as ... errr, .... well, i'm sure there must be Razz .

that's why, in my opinion, you need your 8 or whatever.
and that was the whole problem to start with. of last year's dutch team, 3 are not playing any more at all and goan likes multi's better. even dragging youki out of semi-retirement Cool and the welcome addition of Annabel we don't have a whole team. we just don't have the depth of players to choose from.
      
thadd
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 20:44
Rules can be changed till the 26th of august, make a proposition...

      
SMP-bassie
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 21:11
I have resisted the temptation so far to react, since I am probably the least neutral person in this. But guess what? I'm human.

sebbo complains

im sorry to say that i dont like the new transnational team. There are 5 dutch players in that team, so whats the argument for building a team with players of other nations?
In my opinion this is against the rules.

I don't think it is relevant if you like other teams. In the rules, it doesn't state anywhere a maximum number of inhabitants of a certain country in a transnational team.

erps gives free advice

So i suggest, find a few more dutch players (or switzerland/finland players) and build a full dutch team and a second team (seems okay for me). You already have 10 players.

There is no rule stating this need. NC is not about what you think is OK erps, besides, the only discussion about this rule so far was to relax it a bit (allow for youth teams, for example).

erps was too lazy to read the rules

So we can build our german team with Whitetrain, Womble, erps, sebbo, Rudi, Mason (all top 20 to 40 players) and then ask some top player (or ex-number one) from a small country to join us??

No. See rule 3.1.4.

erps still doesn't get it

How would you react if Anu_ was playing together with Homeland, RedTGV, GTS or our team?

I would find it silly. Would you have a look at Zeno's list at the NC Meat Market? He lists about 200-300 eligible people (of course, there are thousands more, but I and you don't know them). The teams you list all have more than 30 people to choose from. The Dutch have 7 (sorry, thought Leleline_M has Dutch nationality which is not the case), of which one has very uncertain internet access (Leleline_J), one isn't fond of 2-player and hasn't practised either (Goan), and at least two will yet go on holiday during NC. And no, I don't want cancelled matches because of inavailability.

streetcar-Endstation thinks

it is not in the sense of NC when austria and spain would join just to improve their chances.

Guess what? They don't have to! Austria has ample supply of strong players and the Catalunyans are a group of friends. Alas, they can make perfect teams.

streetcar-Endstation adds

It is just the elitist character this team has. If you are Nr. 500, no one would say a word. but a mixture of three nations just that all players can be top 20 makes no fun for others.

Excuse me? So you want the rules to be adapted to the rating a player has? Speaking of elitism! Anu, could you please jump into 20 4-players in a row of 1200-rated players, let the bot do his work and get back to us...

erps doesn't have a family

If you are not able to play in these weeks, don't join a team.

Our children have three weeks holiday in September/October, so we're off to Corsica. You can guess three times if they give a shit if it's Nations Cup during those weeks. You can also guess three times if I (or any other parent around) prefer NC over a holiday with the children. And then you get three more guesses if I ever thought NC should be played later because of my holiday because I am bigger than NC. Indeed. No, no, and no.

sebbo sniggers

the argument " i dont have time to play" is absurd. Bassie appointed the date by himself, so why did he so if his team has no time to play in this period?

Why does everyone think I do the whole thing for myself? I simply think it's good for NC to have a fixed time on the calendar, and I think to start a few weeks after summer holidays is perfect. It is totally irrelevant that it coincides with my holiday. That is my problem, not the community's.

For all your information, research was done on the option of Finnish-Swiss and Dutch teams. I would have loved a Dutch team (to be honest, I like the solution our captain found even more Very Happy). But what if the people we know don't make a team of their own (and we know many)? Send random PMs to people we have never spoken to before? Reanimate the players of last year who haven't been playing a single game for months, and have their reasons for it? Look at the ones criticizing! Germans, who have a hundred players they know to choose from. The Austrians, who can even make a strong team of people living in the same city. And an American, who has plenty of players to pick from.

Easy talking eh?
      
*player218597
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 21:20
hi all,

I don't want to give any opinion about what I find is good or not. But I would like to put a few explanations about the foundation of our Dutch connection team.

- the Dutchs were not enough to form an own team, as Mr. Bean already mentioned. Goan would like to be a reserve-player, bassie is on a holiday for about 2 weeks, aso.

- Fing-Shui team of last year doesn't exist anymore, as there are players from this team that don't play anymore. From this former team it's Jac, Jolanda, and anu that are left.

- As both teams couldn't play anymore on their own, the idea came up to put them together, and I would join it as well as a new player, as well as annabel.

- We asked the TD if this was ok and were very glad when we became the ok.

- As we almost all know each other personally (not only from the weekend) and many of us feel very closed, we were very happy with this solution. This hasn't anything to do with elitair.

- I would like to mention as well that for Germans and Frenchies it is so easy to form your teams, also with top players. Small nationalities don't have it that easy, but they also like the game and the tournaments.

- Last but not least, there would be 3 not to be allowed to play in that team, anu Jac and me. Jolanda and Goan are reserve in case of vacations and for the team spirit. Definitely my daughter will also leave the team, as she has no own pc and it's hard for her to play because of the time difference. She will not be able to take that much responsibility. And then, does that team still exist?

These remarks are all a bit personal, I also must admit that I'm a bit sad about all that. Probably I'm not made for this type of happenings. So I just wait now and see what happens.

Cu all, Marie


      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 22:25
sebbo wrote on Fri, 24 August 2007 14:25

And Masimo is right, saying that last year Peter was allowed to play in an american team, so we have a precedence here.



Peter wasn't allowed to play for his home team. What the TD should have done is made him go on that team.

Mr. NC is getting off quite easy here. Go take some garbage players and put them on your team, Bassie, not 2 top ranked players. Or take Peter, he apologized, get over it.

Anu doesn't want to join the international team and threatens not to play. Who cares? Let her take her marbles and go home.

Or am I now allowed to shop myself around to the highest bidder?
      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 22:31
Hi

The reason why i wanted a rule board. Bassie, you are bending your own rules. Last year Peter was allowed to play in a third US team, so our team should also have the right to choose a player from another country. I see no real difference. In our team (7 players) we have two players in holiday too and some others who don't want to play all the time. So we have to choose a substitute from germany, but maybe we don't want another german player? Or there is no other german player "high" enough because the 10 other german teams have all the top 100 players? You have the possibility with a complete team to choose worldwide? That's absurd.

That is a bad rule and i always thought it this way: Enough players from one country to form a team -> the team is closed for other nations.

And please don't come with this "no time". Anybody who is registering as a player is counting as a team member. In other "sports" nobody cares if the players are ill or away you took on the official registration list. Only the number counts. Let 2 or 3 of your players resign and then form your TN-Team, that's in the rules (and they are stupid).

BTW, i always stated that this is my opinion and i never said i have the power to overrule. But i think i have the power and the reputation to say my opinion in this community loud and clear.

Ah, one thought: The moment we found a second dutch team with ~1200 players you are forbidden to do so -> ReThink your rules...

And to add: It's obvious good to have NC back Wink Thadd, this event has nothing to do with fun Shocked Cool

bye, erps

Edit: There should be one rule: The moment a team has 5 players of the same nationality (or players living there) it is impossible to join with other nations. And this should be not limited to smaller countries. For every nation there is the same problem after founding N teams. There may be a team N+1 with not enough players. For some nations it is N=6 (germany), for others 2 or 3 and for some it is N=0. Allow them too to join with others. Otherwise it is not really a fair system.

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 24 August 2007 22:45]

      
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