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Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 22 August 2014 18:44
Title says it all.

I've played twice:

Omaha alone, result: Allies 16-11 (Germans came within two medals and ran out of gas- rolled very few flags.

Omaha/Utah double map, result: Allies 28-22 (Germans did better on Utah than Omaha though they held their own on Omaha well too- again they just ran out of time- had to give up beach control to muster a strong counter but it was too late).

***BTW- on both of these games the Allies should have won by 2-3 more medals bc we messed up on the Beach Control rules- Allies should have gotten 2 medals per beach instead of 1!!! Ouch!!!

I really feel once sides get the rules down and against equal play Allies just simply have the upper hand here. Historically accurate, but tough to play as Germans I'm afraid.

Things to adjust if you want a more even game:

1. Beach control- Allies receive ONE temp. medal per beach not two.

2. Big Gun bonus- ONE medal for the Allies versus two.

3. Reduce all exit marker permanent medals by HALF (example -Utah map- two medals versus four on that map)- OR if needs be eliminate all the exit marker bonuses.

Probably 2 out of the 3 points listed above are probably sufficient for a close/even game IMHO.

I'm sure there are other things you could adjust easily but these things can even the gameplay a little more w/o compromising the historical flavor.

*I find that the Air Supremacy and Off-Shore Bombardment rules really do not effect the gameplay as much as I thought it would. One could adjust this also (2 dice rolls instead of 1 for Axis and eliminate the "no reinforcement roll" rule after playing Recon 1 as Barrage card for Allies) but it really didn't seem to make much of a difference because:

Flags/On the Move orders are so important to both sides that we found out that whether Axis or Allies, it was more enticing to play for several "on the moves" with 2, 3 or All units attacking than waste a whole turn on Barraging 1 unit. Also, in the big Breakthrough deck, Air Power shows up only once usually if that.

I've noticed Mobility of units is huge on these Extended Breakthrough maps. The side that can move the best can really have a tempo advantage.

What do you guys think? Any other simple suggestions?

      
LooneyLlama
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 22 August 2014 20:25
Hi Big Blue,

All of your points are valid. Your house rules would definitely balance the game. I found that the more maps you use, the closer the game. Single map play is decidedly in the Allies favor. I feel that with equal quality of opponents the Allies win 80% of the time over any combination of maps. We did play all six maps at the WBC tournament and the Axis came out slightly ahead, though we only played to around sixty some medals due to time constraints. It was a lot of fun.

One thing you didn't mention that I feel the Allies have a distinct advantage is the reinforcement roll. That one extra die is huge in determining how many reinforcements you get. Without early in the game and a fair amount of them the Axis can't win. You might want to try just giving the Axis 6 dice for reinforcement rolls and that would be enough to balance the game.
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 22 August 2014 21:43
I did win as the Germans in in Utah Beach (12 to 10) but it was a very close run thing.

The Germans need panzer reinforcements (any infantry they get is usually worthless) and plenty of extra OTM orders. Beach Control is a huge shift (3 medal swing per section) and loss of two beach sections will usally mean the Allies are well on their way to a win.

I would not worry about scenario balance and just go with match play here. I mean, the Allies did win in all the beach sections on D-Day after all.
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 22 August 2014 22:03
And Tank Commander and I had a good single game at WBC, much back and forth, after I, as AXIS jumped out to a good lead and then BEACH CONTROL played a part and in the end I had a shot to win and didn't pull it off and TC was able to come out ahead in that single scenario, 12-9, I believe was the final score.

But, mostly, about fun and seeing what you are able to accomplish against the odds.

      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 22 August 2014 22:22
Although I like the idea of fighting against the odds, a better balanced "campaign" would have been more welcome for us.

The product feels rushed to me. IMO it is aimed towards the more experienced player, but due to simplicity it lacks fine tuning.

Dont get me wrong here. I highly enjoy playing the intense maps(experience/emotion) but the product feels a little broken (technicaly/balance).
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 22 August 2014 22:24
I've also won as the German side against an experienced player (though not an expert). It was a very close battle for Utah but I was able to hold Pointe Du Hoc and keep the Allies pinned on the beach.

I know that some players really want a balanced experience and by now I'm sure you know that I care less about that element...but the experience is so fun that I haven't even cared too much when I lose as the Germans.

I also agree with the statement that the larger maps balance a lot more than individual maps. At GenCon we played Operation Neptune with all 6 maps. Part way through the battle Richard called for both sides to count up their medals. Both sides were tied. A little later I called for a count and the Allies had pulled ahead. When we reached our time limit, everyone counted the medals again and it was a tie!! It was extremely thrilling for both sides and everyone had a great time.

In my mind, it wouldn't have mattered if one side lost by a bunch of medals at the end because everyone was having so much fun. Sure, it was great to find out that the score was the same but there were so many smiles around the table before the medal count... Smile
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 22 August 2014 22:34
Yeah next time I'm gonna try the first two points and see if that helps some. In my games, the Axis always seem to start off strong and then slowly lose ground. I feel the Axis have to have great cards and great dice to get a win. Allies I feel can overcome bad dice and cards much better and just weather the storm by sheer force.

80% Allies sounds about right to me. In Breakthrough/Overlord games, I don't like to play match games because the time of play is so long just for a single game, so I like to balance the game to center if possible by spotting the other side medals or adjusting some of the scenario rules.

Match plays are OK for regular scenarios but for these Extended Breakthroughs the time investment is already a little long so I like the balance of the game to be more 50/50. Well I'll report the results later.
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 22 August 2014 23:03
True, Memoir is not a game of 50/50 chance, and didn't have to be. However looking at the after battle reports the dday landings tend to be like the Mediterranean scenarios.
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sat, 23 August 2014 02:16
I have played 2 games of D Day landings so far,

1 single map of American Airborne the Germans won 9 - 6, this was a very close game though, the medal track was like a yo yo all game. There was only 1 medal in it the turn before the end of the game then some medal changing hands made the score further apart. I did play this game against a player who wasn't as experienced as my self but he did a very good job and had me worried most of the game.

The second game was Utah and American Airborne together with 4 players. The Germans also won this 21 - 17 though again was closer than the score indicates. all 4 players were pretty experienced with memoir.

So our gaming group has yet to see the allies win in D day landings yet..
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sun, 24 August 2014 11:30
I have only played big maps so far (6 4 and 3 and this 5 times) and it usually is close with big swings on the turns. Remember some medals are turn start (Point du hoc for example) and you have a turn to take it back before it swings over to the other side.

Alies and Axis have won about equally on these events. American Airborne and Sword favor the Germans in my opinion.
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sun, 24 August 2014 11:48
Jeronimon wrote on Sun, 24 August 2014 19:00



American Airborne and Sword favor the Germans in my opinion.


Wow really I would say if anything these would be the 2 maps that favor the Allies. Out of the registered games played the Germans have won only once at American Airborne out of 10 (which was my game, though I would like to play the US side next time) and Sword once out of 9 games.


      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sun, 24 August 2014 12:17
American airborne largely favours the allies when played solo. They win this scenario in a few turns, holding towns and bridges. Unfortunately for those americans, in those few turns, the others scenarios are far from over. So when the americans have won on the airborne map, a long struggle starts to keep that victory (and thus controls over towns and bridges) until the other maps catch up. Against an opponent that gets much more reinforcements, this is a lost battle, and the american medal count on this map usually drops towards 5 or 6, with the German count climbing up to 9 and even beyond.

So in solo, American airborne favours the allies, but played together with other maps, it favours the axis. So much even that often the axis can start helping, fight of the allies on Utah beach.
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sun, 24 August 2014 13:00
But, keep in mind that historically, the Allies did win D-Day. So if the scenarios are to be historically accurate, the Allies should win most of the time. This doesn't mean that the Germans can't win, and it sounds like they have won on occasion. However, that being said, I think Omaha could have been a little more even. I think minefields would probably help the balance and give the Germans a fighting chance.

      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sun, 24 August 2014 13:33
Aussie_Digger wrote on Sun, 24 August 2014 11:48

Jeronimon wrote on Sun, 24 August 2014 19:00



American Airborne and Sword favor the Germans in my opinion.


Wow really I would say if anything these would be the 2 maps that favor the Allies. Out of the registered games played the Germans have won only once at American Airborne out of 10 (which was my game, though I would like to play the US side next time) and Sword once out of 9 games.




Oops, went with the wrong verb, I meant to say, as you pointed out, that they for the allies. Embarassed
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sun, 24 August 2014 16:50
50th wrote on Sun, 24 August 2014 07:00

But, keep in mind that historically, the Allies did win D-Day. So if the scenarios are to be historically accurate, the Allies should win most of the time. This doesn't mean that the Germans can't win, and it sounds like they have won on occasion. However, that being said, I think Omaha could have been a little more even. I think minefields would probably help the balance and give the Germans a fighting chance.




The Allies didn't play Memoir 44 so winning is not relevant historically. They achieved certain objectives in a military operation this games is attempting to model. The scenarios can be modeled to grant a win to the side that achieves the same objectives achieved historically. It's clear to me these scenarios try to do that. The fact they don't is a flaw, maybe minor, that depends.

Playing the scenario twice to even out results is not viable for scenarios this size. So other solutions suggested are the best ideas..

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 24 August 2014 16:51]

      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Mon, 25 August 2014 15:16

"Playing the scenario twice to even out results is not viable for scenarios this size."

If my ftf sessions (4 hrs plus), one map scenario match play is very possible. I guess it all depends on how long you have for gaming in one go. Of course this does not prevent match play in two different sessions.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 25 August 2014 15:20]

      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Mon, 25 August 2014 17:13

"The Allies didn't play Memoir 44 so winning is not relevant historically."

I think it is relevant because the Allies did control the beaches, and move inland to control many of the surrounding towns and villages. That is what you are trying to do in these scenarios (all but American Airborne. I think one thing they could have changed that would effect balance is the addition of minefields, and placing the exit markers at the German end of the board. The Allies were going inland to breakout of the hedgerow country. I would like to try to play one of the scenarios with these changes!
Maybe I will this week!

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 25 August 2014 17:14]

      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Mon, 25 August 2014 17:49
50th wrote on Mon, 25 August 2014 11:13


"The Allies didn't play Memoir 44 so winning is not relevant historically."

I think it is relevant because the Allies did control the beaches, and move inland to control many of the surrounding towns and villages. That is what you are trying to do in these scenarios (all but American Airborne. I think one thing they could have changed that would effect balance is the addition of minefields, and placing the exit markers at the German end of the board. The Allies were going inland to breakout of the hedgerow country. I would like to try to play one of the scenarios with these changes!
Maybe I will this week!




Exactly my point. Achieving objectives is what mattered on D-Day. How that translates into a game is an implementation decision (e.g., how many points for controlling a beach etc.) and how that is implemented has no bearing on the history...it doesn't change the past nor does it distort what happened if the game faithfully implements the objectives. However, the implementation might fall short on balance as alleged in this thread. This could have been avoided without changing historical accuracy (e.g., by changing points allotted for beach control or whatever). A designer merely has to decide what collection of objectives equates to victory in the game and then allot points to achieve balance (and do a LOT of testing).

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 25 August 2014 17:50]

      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Mon, 25 August 2014 19:59
50th wrote on Mon, 25 August 2014 16:13


"The Allies didn't play Memoir 44 so winning is not relevant historically."

I think it is relevant because the Allies did control the beaches, and move inland to control many of the surrounding towns and villages. That is what you are trying to do in these scenarios



Agreed - but then you don't need maps of this size. There's an awful lot of dead ground for the Germans to cover to reach the beaches. Reducing Objective medal numbers for the beaches lengthens the game in time to match the length of the maps.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Mon, 25 August 2014 20:03
questioneer wrote on Fri, 22 August 2014 17:44


I really feel once sides get the rules down and against equal play Allies just simply have the upper hand here. Historically accurate, but tough to play as Germans I'm afraid.

Things to adjust if you want a more even game:

1. Beach control- Allies receive ONE temp. medal per beach not two.

2. Big Gun bonus- ONE medal for the Allies versus two.



From my first few plays I've felt that point 1. above should be adopted as for the time investment in set-up and playing at least 2 maps I did want a more equal play over historical accuracy.

The scores are more even the more maps are played but most of my plays will be with 2 - 3 maps max.
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sun, 31 August 2014 13:30
Well today my group played a 4 player scenario of Sword and Juno beach. I must say I was very very surprised at the result. I was playing the German side on Sword beach and thought wow we have a tough time here. I am a very experienced memoir player, my team mate has only played memoir a few times (though has played the C&C games a bit). The Allied players were also pretty experienced at memoir.

In the end the Germans won! 29 to 24

So our group has played 3 scenarios from the expansion and has yet to see the Allies win. (though all 3 games have been very close to where it was any sides game in the last few turns) We have found the score lines don't seem to reflect the closeness of the games in this expansion due to the amount of objective medals that can change hands at the end of the game.
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Mon, 01 September 2014 07:20
Aussie_Digger wrote on Sun, 31 August 2014 04:30

Well today my group played a 4 player scenario of Sword and Juno beach. I must say I was very very surprised at the result. I was playing the German side on Sword beach and thought wow we have a tough time here. I am a very experienced memoir player, my team mate has only played memoir a few times (though has played the C&C games a bit). The Allied players were also pretty experienced at memoir.

In the end the Germans won! 29 to 24

So our group has played 3 scenarios from the expansion and has yet to see the Allies win. (though all 3 games have been very close to where it was any sides game in the last few turns) We have found the score lines don't seem to reflect the closeness of the games in this expansion due to the amount of objective medals that can change hands at the end of the game.


Sounds exciting!! Make sure you go in and write an AAR for all of your battles so we all know that there is actually a chance to win these as Germans. Like the title of this thread...there is indeed a chance to win the D-Day Landings as the Germans.
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Mon, 01 September 2014 07:31
Aussie_Digger wrote on Sun, 31 August 2014 07:30

So our group has played 3 scenarios from the expansion and has yet to see the Allies win. (though all 3 games have been very close to where it was any sides game in the last few turns) We have found the score lines don't seem to reflect the closeness of the games in this expansion due to the amount of objective medals that can change hands at the end of the game.

This is why the Allies trained in England for so long before the actual invasion. It's not supposed to be easyy. Smile
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Mon, 01 September 2014 09:43
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 01 September 2014 14:50



Sounds exciting!! Make sure you go in and write an AAR for all of your battles so we all know that there is actually a chance to win these as Germans. Like the title of this thread...there is indeed a chance to win the D-Day Landings as the Germans.


I have recorded all my plays on the DOW website. I didn't keep a record or take pics of the battles, so a little hard to write up an AAR
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 12 September 2014 11:24
50th wrote on Sun, 24 August 2014 07:00

I think minefields would probably help the balance and give the Germans a fighting chance.




Hello gamers

I bought this expansion in Paris after a trip to Normandy where my girlfriend and I visited the Omaha and Gold beach sections. We were both thrilled by the experience and we're equally thrilled by this game, in spite of the fact that her patience with games of 1h+ is usually very limited!

However, also for me it has been frustrating to see that axis have such a hard time winning(or even getting close), playing with the written rules.

We played Gold+Omaha with some friends(yes, because those were the beaches we went to) with beach sections counting only 1 medal for either side. Axis was SO close to winning, but after failing to achieve that last medal, the German coastal defences were severely overrun. Great game! But considering the slow and awkward advance of the allies, I feel that axis should have won this game.

Now back to the point: Minefields. I'm no expert, but to my knowledge the Normandy coast actually was littered with mines. In some later one-map games we've allowed the axis player to place 8 minefields on empty land hexes(no coastline hexes) before game start. This actually seems to balance the game really well, making allies beach advance slower and more dangerous. Furthermore, the minefields are really fun and they make these nifty Hobart's Funnies Mine Diggers a great choice on the Sword, Juno and Gold sectors.

To me, balancing this game is not about making axis win 50% of the times. It's about facilitating these nerve-wrecking matches where players frequently launch very risky attacks in order to secure that last medal before the opponent.

My recommendations:

-Beach sections worth 1 medal
-8 axis minefields per map

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 12 September 2014 11:25]

      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 12 September 2014 16:31
player33397 wrote on Fri, 12 September 2014 02:24

50th wrote on Sun, 24 August 2014 07:00

I think minefields would probably help the balance and give the Germans a fighting chance.




Hello gamers

I bought this expansion in Paris after a trip to Normandy where my girlfriend and I visited the Omaha and Gold beach sections. We were both thrilled by the experience and we're equally thrilled by this game, in spite of the fact that her patience with games of 1h+ is usually very limited!

However, also for me it has been frustrating to see that axis have such a hard time winning(or even getting close), playing with the written rules.

We played Gold+Omaha with some friends(yes, because those were the beaches we went to) with beach sections counting only 1 medal for either side. Axis was SO close to winning, but after failing to achieve that last medal, the German coastal defences were severely overrun. Great game! But considering the slow and awkward advance of the allies, I feel that axis should have won this game.

Now back to the point: Minefields. I'm no expert, but to my knowledge the Normandy coast actually was littered with mines. In some later one-map games we've allowed the axis player to place 8 minefields on empty land hexes(no coastline hexes) before game start. This actually seems to balance the game really well, making allies beach advance slower and more dangerous. Furthermore, the minefields are really fun and they make these nifty Hobart's Funnies Mine Diggers a great choice on the Sword, Juno and Gold sectors.

To me, balancing this game is not about making axis win 50% of the times. It's about facilitating these nerve-wrecking matches where players frequently launch very risky attacks in order to secure that last medal before the opponent.

My recommendations:

-Beach sections worth 1 medal
-8 axis minefields per map


Sounds like a fun way to play! Anything that brings people to the table and helps them enjoy the game is great! Have fun!! Very Happy
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 12 September 2014 17:08
player33397 wrote on Fri, 12 September 2014 10:24

50th wrote on Sun, 24 August 2014 07:00

I think minefields would probably help the balance and give the Germans a fighting chance.




My recommendations:

-Beach sections worth 1 medal
-8 axis minefields per map


I like your thinking and believe they would actually make use of the size / scale of the maps, but would you apply both or choose one?

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 12 September 2014 17:08]

      
AVRE Bobbin
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sat, 13 September 2014 10:46
Achtung Panzer wrote on Fri, 12 September 2014 11:08

player33397 wrote on Fri, 12 September 2014 10:24

50th wrote on Sun, 24 August 2014 07:00

I think minefields would probably help the balance and give the Germans a fighting chance.




My recommendations:

-Beach sections worth 1 medal
-8 axis minefields per map


I like your thinking and believe they would actually make use of the size / scale of the maps, but would you apply both or choose one?




We have applied both on the same time, with great success. Also, to me it seems illogical to have objectives with different values to the two parties. After all, if the beach is worth seizing for one side, it should be equally worth keeping for the other side. But please let us know if you find that using both modifications is too much.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sat, 13 September 2014 11:12
Actually I'm quite happy about asymmetrical Medals for objectives as they help to provide a historical feel and keep scenarios different.

I'll give the ideas a go but probably with 1 - 3 maps max as the more maps you use the more equal the scores seem to be.

[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 16 September 2014 18:42]

      
questioneer
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Mon, 15 September 2014 23:09
AVRE Bobbin wrote on Sat, 13 September 2014 04:46

Achtung Panzer wrote on Fri, 12 September 2014 11:08

player33397 wrote on Fri, 12 September 2014 10:24

50th wrote on Sun, 24 August 2014 07:00

I think minefields would probably help the balance and give the Germans a fighting chance.




My recommendations:

-Beach sections worth 1 medal
-8 axis minefields per map


I like your thinking and believe they would actually make use of the size / scale of the maps, but would you apply both or choose one?




We have applied both on the same time, with great success. Also, to me it seems illogical to have objectives with different values to the two parties. After all, if the beach is worth seizing for one side, it should be equally worth keeping for the other side. But please let us know if you find that using both modifications is too much.



I really like this idea a little better than mine. 8 minefields per map + 1point beaches- I'll try it! Thanks! Smile
      
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Mon, 13 October 2014 15:47
We played all 6 maps over the weekend. The Allies won but they nearly lost. In the 14th turn it was 61/71 in favour of the Axis. Then a couple of beach heads changed hands and Utah got a lot of lucky rolls.

It ended on turn 15 with 78/65. I thought the Allies were toast at the end of turn 14.

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1795776_10152493121978790_4061144574275503099_n.jpg?oh=98aebb610d7b26efd51fe1d25b73bc91&oe=54BDF3A1
      
Dree
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Fri, 17 October 2014 01:15
Litlleidiot, I'm a littleconfused...

Is your graph above about the 'classic' game or the Minesheads variant?
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sun, 19 October 2014 22:04
Dree wrote on Fri, 17 October 2014 00:15

Litlleidiot, I'm a littleconfused...

Is your graph above about the 'classic' game or the Minesheads variant?


I was thinking the same amd would also like to know as we have a 6 map game day coming up.
      
littleidiot
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Re:Dday- Can the Germans even win??? Sat, 25 October 2014 00:02
Sorry for the delay. The graph is from a standard 6 map game with no house rules.
      
    
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