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rasmussen81
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Hills and Mountains Sun, 19 August 2007 07:04
So here's a new question (I think). My wife and I were playing a battle I created based on the Cassino line battles in Italy. The French troops swarmed through the hills and mountains to the South of Cassino in history and unhinged the Gustav Line, winning the day for the Allies. So in my battle (3870U) there is a German unit defending a mountain on that southern flank as the French troops attack. To get up the the mountain there are hills all around and while we were playing, my wife moved her French troops onto a hex that was adjacent to a hill hex (so she was still in the plains). My German unit on the mountain had one hill hex between it and the attacking Frenchie.

So here is the question...being above the hill, can my German unit see over the hill and therefore attack the Allied unit? It doesn't change things much either way, but it would make sense that I could attack, and the Allies could attack as well with the -2 die limitation.

What does the community brain think?
      
Randwulf
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Re:Hills and Mountains Sun, 19 August 2007 09:39
You wanna look down the mountain, over the hill to the open hex???

Depends on the scale I would say...

But then a unit in an open hex between two hills blocks LOS from hill top to hill top.. so I would have to say we are back to the scale thing. If the mountains are just an extra level up, and we are talking platoon level, I would say yes. you can...

If we are talking Division level then I would say no because there is more terrain in the hexes to contend with, gullys, out crops, clumps of trees...

So if you wrote the scenario, then figure out the scale and how you want to do it. Write up special rules for the use and try them out.
      
ANZAC_Trooper
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Re:Hills and Mountains Sun, 19 August 2007 11:36
From what I understand from the rules and FAQ then the simple rules for this game is that elevation has just a simple and basic effect on the game (a hill will block LOS and provide a terrain battle restriction but that is all), and if LOS is blocked by any terrain/unit then this block is final and extends (along the line) to the end of the board.

Hell - if a unit blocks LOS between two hills then you can't really have any different rules for levels of elevation.

If this detail/realism is required then move along to 'Tide of Iron' (or write some good house rules to share with us Cool) .
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Hills and Mountains Sun, 19 August 2007 13:48
We have been trying to get a definitive answer on this one for some time. Basic rule of thumb is this:

-If two units are adjacent to each other on different terrain, they have LOS.
-If two units are on non-adjacent hexex and different terrain, they have LOS ONLY if the terrain between them does not break LOS
-If two units are on the same terrain and all the terrain between them is the same terrain, they have LOS
-If two units are on the same terrain and all the terrain between them is differnt terrain, they have LOS ONLY if the terrain between them does not break LOS

So your situation falls under the second point. One unit is on a Mountain, the other a plain hex. They are separated by a hill. Since they are on different terrain and the terrain between them blocks LOS, they do not have LOS.

On the other hand, it is a custom scenario, so you can make up whatever rules you want. That may mean defining a Mountain as blocking LOS 2 - a second elevated level, while Hills only block LOS - the first elevated level.

So if a hill is between two mountains, no LOS is blocked (since there is a valley):
  ___   ___
  |m |__|m |
  |  |h |  |


And if a hill separates a mountain and a plain hex, you also retain LOS (as if looking down steps):
  ___
  |m |__
  |  |h |__


This seems to make the most sense but there is nothing in the rules that imply this. Only are pre-conceived notions that a Mountain should be higher than a hill. And we also assume that mountain is twice the height of the hill in order for this to work! Basically, we are just adding a level under the hill rules to get to this assumption.
      
60WATZ
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Re:Hills and Mountains Sun, 19 August 2007 18:53
Colts????

Did you just say "If two units are on the same terrain and all the terrain between them is the same terrain, they have LOS"

I specifically remember reading in the Manual that Forests are supposed to be treated as individual Forests. Not one forest. So are you saying if two units are in a cluster of Forest tiles, they can fire on each other???

EX: UNIT1-Forest-Forest-ENEMYUNIT

They can fire?
      
tank commander
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Re:Hills and Mountains Sun, 19 August 2007 21:47
60WATZ wrote on Sun, 19 August 2007 12:53

Colts????

Did you just say "If two units are on the same terrain and all the terrain between them is the same terrain, they have LOS"

I specifically remember reading in the Manual that Forests are supposed to be treated as individual Forests. Not one forest. So are you saying if two units are in a cluster of Forest tiles, they can fire on each other???

EX: UNIT1-Forest-Forest-ENEMYUNIT

They can fire?


As to your forest "fire" question (sorry for the pun,although it was intended) - that would be no.

The "same" terrain Coltsfan was referring to , I surmise, would be hills or mountains. Those two terrain types only block LOS in certain situations whereas Forest and Towns always block LOS.

[Updated on: Sun, 19 August 2007 21:47]

      
JMcL63
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Re:Hills and Mountains Mon, 20 August 2007 03:26
I remember an M44 scenario whose entire purpose was to demonstrate LOS for hills. I can't find it now, but here is the Battlelore version, which is (fingers crossed, but with confidence!) just the same.

Of course, it has nothing to do with mountains, so that's another matter. Wink
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Hills and Mountains Mon, 20 August 2007 06:46
Unfortunately JMcL63, I don't own Battle Lore (although it looks fun and I might have to get it soon) so I can't get onto the link page you gave me. Could you give me an overview of what it says? Thanks.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Hills and Mountains Mon, 20 August 2007 07:05
tank commander wrote on Sun, 19 August 2007 14:47

60WATZ wrote on Sun, 19 August 2007 12:53

Colts????

Did you just say "If two units are on the same terrain and all the terrain between them is the same terrain, they have LOS"

I specifically remember reading in the Manual that Forests are supposed to be treated as individual Forests. Not one forest. So are you saying if two units are in a cluster of Forest tiles, they can fire on each other???

EX: UNIT1-Forest-Forest-ENEMYUNIT

They can fire?


As to your forest "fire" question (sorry for the pun,although it was intended) - that would be no.

The "same" terrain Coltsfan was referring to , I surmise, would be hills or mountains. Those two terrain types only block LOS in certain situations whereas Forest and Towns always block LOS.


Sorry. TC has it right. I shouldn't type that early in the morning when I should be preparing for my Sunday School lesson instead.

The only terrain I was referring to was Mountains, Hills, and plain hexes - elevated terrain if you will - not forests, towns, and the like. Sorry for the confusion. I'll try to edit my remarks tomorrow.
      
JMcL63
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Re:Hills and Mountains Mon, 20 August 2007 07:35
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 20 August 2007 05:46

Unfortunately JMcL63, I don't own Battle Lore (although it looks fun and I might have to get it soon) so I can't get onto the link page you gave me. Could you give me an overview of what it says? Thanks.


This post has been edited to include a link to the M44 hills LOS example page. Sorry for any inconvenience. Wink

[Updated on: Mon, 20 August 2007 13:49]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Hills and Mountains Mon, 20 August 2007 09:14
That worked and makes sense. It's kind of cool to see the Battle Lore thing so thanks. I hope you don't get in trouble for that. Smile
      
JMcL63
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Re:Hills and Mountains Mon, 20 August 2007 09:23
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 20 August 2007 08:14

That worked and makes sense. It's kind of cool to see the Battle Lore thing so thanks. I hope you don't get in trouble for that. Smile

I hope not too, but I trust that the DoW staff'll just remove the picture if it's against the rules. Wink
      
Randwulf
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Re:Hills and Mountains Mon, 20 August 2007 11:36
Hey J-mac... you get to stand in the corner for being a bad boy...

And you didn't do your homework...

The M44 hills are at the bottom of the SFtF list... the very bottom... kinda like a sticky only it stays at the bottom...

      
JMcL63
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Re:Hills and Mountains Mon, 20 August 2007 13:47
Randwulf wrote on Mon, 20 August 2007 10:36

Hey J-mac... you get to stand in the corner for being a bad boy...

And you didn't do your homework...

The M44 hills are at the bottom of the SFtF list... the very bottom... kinda like a sticky only it stays at the bottom...



Dang! I didn't scroll far enough! That post'll be edited to provide a link instead of the pic. Wink
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Hills and Mountains Mon, 20 August 2007 18:34

"Dang! I didn't scroll far enough! That post'll be edited to provide a link instead of the pic. ;)"



But I still got to see the BL map thing before it got edited! Twisted Evil That's why it pays to check this board every ten and a half minutes! Laughing

[Updated on: Mon, 20 August 2007 18:35]

      
    
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