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*player29581
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Next set of various questions Wed, 28 November 2007 20:31
More questions for discussion. I would eventually like some official DOW answers.

1. Dice wear - I have the "new edition" of the dice, that is the ones where each color helmet has a different design. I have played the game only once a week, for the past 9 weeks. That's 9 games and I'm starting to see very noticeable wearing of the dice. Do others have this problem with the "new edition" of dice?

2. When playing CtA and determining who out-scouts who, do creatures count? All the creatures on CtA deployment cards are green, but what if I deploy a blue creature (which I read is acceptable)?

3. When using CtA, is it OK to deploy multiple creatures each in a different section of the board (if they appear on the cards, and are available)?

4. If you do deploy multiple creatures, are you forced to apply multiple lore master tokens to the creature spot on the war council?

5. If 3 & 4 are "yes", then can you deploy 1 creature via deployment cards, and then add an additional token during the assembly of the war council in order to deploy a second one?

6. If you do not deploy a creature via deployment cards, but choose to add one during the assembly of the war council, exactly when does that creature get placed? (not counting EE)

7. Scenario: I only have 1 lore token, a cleric on my WC, and a Bless card in my hand. I order a red cavalry unit, and it starts to battle. I roll 2 hits, 1 flag, and 1 lore. I collect 1 lore token (bringing the total in my cup to 2), and the enemy retreats 1 hex. I then pursue. Can I at that time play Bless (just prior to the pursuit battle)?

8. Scenario: The defending player plays Blinding Light in reaction to the attacker's command card. The attacker has a red cavalry attack an opponent's unit inside a forest. The units melee is 4d. The forest caps this at 2d. BL says attacks are at -1d. Does the -1d get applied to the 4d (resulting in 2d attack) or to the already modified count (resulting in 1d attack)? I hope that was clear.

9. A command card or lore card which enhances melee battle dice is played. For example, Mounted Charge. Then a unit effected by the card is used in an attempt to summon an Earth Elemental. Does this attempt get an extra die? The rules state you roll the unit's melee dice. The rules also state this action is "in lieu of" battle.

Cheers
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Next set of various questions Wed, 28 November 2007 21:28
1. Don't know. I have old edition replacements and they are fine

2. When you scout, you only count the units on the field. So if it is a green creature, it counts, if it is blue, it doesn't count.

3. Yes. We are supposed to be getting more information on this in the future. But the most you will ever have is 2 creatures since all you do is mix 2 decks and each deck only has 1 creature so far.

4. If you get 2 creatures, it costs you 2 lore master tokens on your council.

5. No. Deployment decks are one way to set up creatures in the game, War Council is another. You cannot mix and match.

6. If you are using Deployment decks and do not draw a creature, you do not get one this game. If you are using a standard Scenario (i.e. non deployment deck), place the creature after War Councils are revealed.

7. This needs to be asked of DOW. I am of the opinion that you have to play cards at the start of your Battle and not during pursuit. But others have valid points about being able to play this during pursuit. The point is, if you collect Lore, it should be available for immediate use - which is what I think is the intent of your question. I still have issues with the timing of some cards.

8. This was answered before I think but I don't remember which way it went. Basically, do you start with the attacker's base dice, subtract penalties, and then cap it? Or do you start with the capped dice and then subtract the bonus?

I think it is the one were you go to the capped dice (2 in this example with the woods) and then subtract a die so he should have only had one die. Reason being is that when you ADD dice, you add it after the terrain reduction. The more I think of it, the more I think this was the answer previously given.

9. Yes. If you get more dice for whaterver reason and do not battle, they can all be used for the summoning.
      
toddrew
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Re:Next set of various questions Wed, 28 November 2007 21:28
Sultan wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 12:31

More questions for discussion. I would eventually like some official DOW answers.

1. Dice wear - I have the "new edition" of the dice, that is the ones where each color helmet has a different design. I have played the game only once a week, for the past 9 weeks. That's 9 games and I'm starting to see very noticeable wearing of the dice. Do others have this problem with the "new edition" of dice?


I have both the original dice and the replacement dice. I'm no dice afficianado, but I cannot tell the difference between the two. I haven't used the replacement dice much, but did get some wear from the use that I did.

Quote:


2. When playing CtA and determining who out-scouts who, do creatures count? All the creatures on CtA deployment cards are green, but what if I deploy a blue creature (which I read is acceptable)?


Creatures do count, but only if they actually are green banners (ie, the Giant Spider).

Quote:


3. When using CtA, is it OK to deploy multiple creatures each in a different section of the board (if they appear on the cards, and are available)?


The only way to deploy creatures in a "by the book" cta game is to draw a deployment card or cards that feature a creature. By using one such card as reserves, one could place a creature in any section (and then use Vantage Point to position for maximum damage [or disappointment Wink ]).
Quote:


4. If you do deploy multiple creatures, are you forced to apply multiple lore master tokens to the creature spot on the war council?


Yes. Currently all creatures are "Level 1" and require one lore master token each.
Quote:


5. If 3 & 4 are "yes", then can you deploy 1 creature via deployment cards, and then add an additional token during the assembly of the war council in order to deploy a second one?

6. If you do not deploy a creature via deployment cards, but choose to add one during the assembly of the war council, exactly when does that creature get placed? (not counting EE)


Like I said in response to 3., the only way to field creatures in cta is to use the deployment cards that feature them. However, if one wanted to allow creatures to be deployed at the time of wc construction, I would think they would be deployed at that time.
Quote:


7. Scenario: I only have 1 lore token, a cleric on my WC, and a Bless card in my hand. I order a red cavalry unit, and it starts to battle. I roll 2 hits, 1 flag, and 1 lore. I collect 1 lore token (bringing the total in my cup to 2), and the enemy retreats 1 hex. I then pursue. Can I at that time play Bless (just prior to the pursuit battle)?

Since Bless is played during the combat phase, yes, that would be allowed. EDIT: unless, as ColtsFan brings up, it is ruled that Lore cards cannot be played during follow-on actions.
Quote:


8. Scenario: The defending player plays Blinding Light in reaction to the attacker's command card. The attacker has a red cavalry attack an opponent's unit inside a forest. The units melee is 4d. The forest caps this at 2d. BL says attacks are at -1d. Does the -1d get applied to the 4d (resulting in 2d attack) or to the already modified count (resulting in 1d attack)? I hope that was clear.

It would be 1d. The Lore card's effects would take place after the terrain restriction.
Quote:


9. A command card or lore card which enhances melee battle dice is played. For example, Mounted Charge. Then a unit effected by the card is used in an attempt to summon an Earth Elemental. Does this attempt get an extra die? The rules state you roll the unit's melee dice. The rules also state this action is "in lieu of" battle.


This is a good question (not that the others weren't Wink ), but I would say if the bonus is restricted to melee battles (or ranged, for that matter), they wouldn't. But a card like Strength also says "in battle", so the question is, does the act of summoning take on the same characteristics as a normal battle, or is it something different due to the name. I've always let an mc enabled mounted unit summon using the bonus, but not sure about this one.

[Updated on: Wed, 28 November 2007 21:31]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Next set of various questions Wed, 28 November 2007 21:50
toddrew wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 14:28

Sultan wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 12:31


9. A command card or lore card which enhances melee battle dice is played. For example, Mounted Charge. Then a unit effected by the card is used in an attempt to summon an Earth Elemental. Does this attempt get an extra die? The rules state you roll the unit's melee dice. The rules also state this action is "in lieu of" battle.


This is a good question (not that the others weren't Wink ), but I would say if the bonus is restricted to melee battles (or ranged, for that matter), they wouldn't. But a card like Strength also says "in battle", so the question is, does the act of summoning take on the same characteristics as a normal battle, or is it something different due to the name. I've always let an mc enabled mounted unit summon using the bonus, but not sure about this one.


Summoning Circle summary cards stated "use Melee dice" and Mounted Charge increases your "melee dice." So whatever you would use if you could battle is what you would use if you choose to summon istead.
      
toddrew
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Re:Next set of various questions Wed, 28 November 2007 22:14
Or I could read the card and have my answer there Wink EDIT: Or the original question, which summarized said card nicely Very Happy speed reading at lunch...

[Updated on: Wed, 28 November 2007 22:16]

      
*player29581
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Re:Next set of various questions Wed, 28 November 2007 22:24
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 14:50


Summoning Circle summary cards stated "use Melee dice" and Mounted Charge increases your "melee dice." So whatever you would use if you could battle is what you would use if you choose to summon istead.


Not exactly. Summoning Circle says "use Melee dice". Mounted Charge says "Ordered units battle in melee at +1d for the entire turn." My doubt comes from the phrase "battle in melee" vs. the Summoning Circle's clarification in the compendium, summoning "takes place in lieu of battling".

I'm not saying your are wrong, I tend to agree. However, it doesn't use the same phrasing.
      
Caboose
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Re:Next set of various questions Wed, 28 November 2007 22:56
Sultan wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 14:24

ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 14:50


Summoning Circle summary cards stated "use Melee dice" and Mounted Charge increases your "melee dice." So whatever you would use if you could battle is what you would use if you choose to summon istead.


Not exactly. Summoning Circle says "use Melee dice". Mounted Charge says "Ordered units battle in melee at +1d for the entire turn." My doubt comes from the phrase "battle in melee" vs. the Summoning Circle's clarification in the compendium, summoning "takes place in lieu of battling".

I'm not saying your are wrong, I tend to agree. However, it doesn't use the same phrasing.


What Colt said above does work..if the command/lore card increases your melee dice, then it would also for summoning. I have no problem if it is mounted or infantry. If it was an archer who did the summoning, it might be argued that it's melee dice would be the same as ranged attack. A very gray area...

Like Todd, I've yet to run into this situation (But then I've probably haven't run into an Earth elemental fanatic either!)
      
GBF640
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Re:Next set of various questions Wed, 28 November 2007 23:34
Quote:

6. If you are using Deployment decks and do not draw a creature, you do not get one this game. If you are using a standard Scenario (i.e. non deployment deck), place the creature after War Councils are revealed.



ColtsFan, I had always assumed one could choose Creature(s) when setting up a War Council; I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I cannot find anything in the rule books that speaks to it. Can you point me to a specific rule, FAQ, or other link?

The reason I ask is that, if one wanted to choose a Creature during War Council setup, I can find no rule about where it should be placed. I'm assuming a scenario with a pre-determined Order of Battle shown on the map, but with an open-ended War Council. A friend of mine thought like I did that Creatures could be chosen, but he assumed placement was like that for landmarks or the Summoning Circle: 3rd or 4th row. But I could find no rule anywhere about generic creature placement that would apply to the Giant Spider. Since the rules don't seem to speak to it, I tend to agree with you in that if the intention of Richard Borg/DOW were to allow Creature selection, I think it would say that somewhere.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Next set of various questions Wed, 28 November 2007 23:55
Sultan wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 15:24


I'm not saying your are wrong, I tend to agree. However, it doesn't use the same phrasing.


No, you just like to argue with me Smile

Mounted Charge gives you additional dice in melee. Summoning Circle says instead of battling use the melee dice to summon. It seems pretty clear that it covers all bases. I know that you tend to agree, but what logic do you have to support the opposite argument?

Remember, we aren't dealing with Hasbro and the GI Joe TCG. This is C&C and the most simple interpretation is usually the correct one.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Next set of various questions Thu, 29 November 2007 00:02
GBF640 wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 16:34

Quote:

6. If you are using Deployment decks and do not draw a creature, you do not get one this game. If you are using a standard Scenario (i.e. non deployment deck), place the creature after War Councils are revealed.



ColtsFan, I had always assumed one could choose Creature(s) when setting up a War Council; I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I cannot find anything in the rule books that speaks to it. Can you point me to a specific rule, FAQ, or other link?

The reason I ask is that, if one wanted to choose a Creature during War Council setup, I can find no rule about where it should be placed. I'm assuming a scenario with a pre-determined Order of Battle shown on the map, but with an open-ended War Council. A friend of mine thought like I did that Creatures could be chosen, but he assumed placement was like that for landmarks or the Summoning Circle: 3rd or 4th row. But I could find no rule anywhere about generic creature placement that would apply to the Giant Spider. Since the rules don't seem to speak to it, I tend to agree with you in that if the intention of Richard Borg/DOW were to allow Creature selection, I think it would say that somewhere.


This was discussed on a thread previously. I made the same statement above and Eric of DOW confirmed that the interpretation was correct.

Here is a link to that conversation: http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=91224#msg_91224
      
GBF640
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Re:Next set of various questions Thu, 29 November 2007 00:18
Quote:

This was discussed on a thread previously. I made the same statement above and Eric of DOW confirmed that the interpretation was correct.

Here is a link to that conversation: http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=91224#msg_91224


OK, thanks. To some extent I am disappointed that I can't choose a Creature when I want it. I think I'll come up with a house rule for this. It's fun to take existing scenarios and add in Creatures and Specialist cards and see what happens.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Next set of various questions Thu, 29 November 2007 01:09
GBF640 wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 17:18

Quote:

This was discussed on a thread previously. I made the same statement above and Eric of DOW confirmed that the interpretation was correct.

Here is a link to that conversation: http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=91224#msg_91224


OK, thanks. To some extent I am disappointed that I can't choose a Creature when I want it. I think I'll come up with a house rule for this. It's fun to take existing scenarios and add in Creatures and Specialist cards and see what happens.


Of course, you always have the option for houserules!

Your last sentance confuses me though. If you have an existing scenario, then the units are already deployed and no need for the Dpeloyment decks. In this case, you CAN insert creatures into the scenario through your War Council.

Plus, you can implement Specialist cards how you want. They are not limited to just Call to Arms set-ups.
      
toddrew
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Re:Next set of various questions Thu, 29 November 2007 01:56
Caboose wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 14:56

If it was an archer who did the summoning, it might be argued that it's melee dice would be the same as ranged attack. A very gray area...




While it may ultimately by ruled the other way, I don't think there is a gray area here, if using a ranged unit to summon the EE (which, in my opinion would be a very poor choice - red banners all the way Wink ) one wouldn't be able to use lore cards like Take Aim, nor Magic Missiles to assist in the summoning, as they only apply to ranged attacks, and the summoning is to be treated as the melee battle roll would go. Furthermore, Darken the Skies couldn't be used to get two cracks at it Very Happy
      
GBF640
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Re:Next set of various questions Thu, 29 November 2007 20:09
Quote:

Your last sentance confuses me though. If you have an existing scenario, then the units are already deployed and no need for the Dpeloyment decks. In this case, you CAN insert creatures into the scenario through your War Council.



Um, run that by me again? Under what circumstances can I insert creatures using the War Council (other than by house rule)?

Not sure what confused you about what I said; I mentioned adding Creatures and Specialist cards, but I didn't refer to Deployment decks, because I'm specifically talking about scenarios with units already set by the map.
Quote:


Plus, you can implement Specialist cards how you want. They are not limited to just Call to Arms set-ups.


If it is encouraged to use Specialist cards in existing scenarios, that's great. I want to add Creatures too, but that requires house rules about where they can be placed. The most reasonable rule I can think of is 3rd or 4th row for the regular map, 4th through 8th row on an Epic map.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Next set of various questions Thu, 29 November 2007 20:43
I guess I was confused because you were asking about a question in which we were discussing if you could add creatures after using deployment decks.

So that we are on the same page, you may use creatures in the following ways:

1) If the Scenario already shows a Creature set-up
2) If the Scenario does not have acreature but does have a Customizable War Council, then you may allot Lore Master Tokens to the Creature space on the WC sheet
3) If the Scenario is void of units (i.e. a Call to Arms terrain only scenario) and you use Deployment Decks and draw a card with the creature symbol.

These are all official means. Anything else is a house rule.

With Specialist cards, the proper way to use them is through the Deployment Deck procedure. However, you could use them in the pre-defined scenarios as well.
      
DarkPadawan2
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Re:Next set of various questions Thu, 29 November 2007 20:53
ColtsFan76 schrieb am Thu, 29 November 2007 20:43

I guess I was confused because you were asking about a question in which we were discussing if you could add creatures after using deployment decks.

So that we are on the same page, you may use creatures in the following ways:

1) If the Scenario already shows a Creature set-up
2) If the Scenario does not have acreature but does have a Customizable War Council, then you may allot Lore Master Tokens to the Creature space on the WC sheet
3) If the Scenario is void of units (i.e. a Call to Arms terrain only scenario) and you use Deployment Decks and draw a card with the creature symbol.

These are all official means. Anything else is a house rule.




You are missing a 4th case, CF.

4) From the Creatures Compendium, Generic Creature, Entry 14, (finally online):
Quote:

"If during the deployment phase none of the two players is deploying a creature, both players can choose to add a creature during the war council phase.


Dark.
      
GBF640
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Re:Next set of various questions Thu, 29 November 2007 22:01
Quote:

4) From the Creatures Compendium, Generic Creature, Entry 14, (finally online):



ColtsFan and Dark, I apologize, I see now that the Creatures Compendium does indeed cover this topic fairly exhaustively. I had never seen the Creatures Compendium until today -- very useful! I printed one book for myself and another for my gaming buddy.
      
Caboose
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 00:20
toddrew wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 17:56

Caboose wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 14:56

If it was an archer who did the summoning, it might be argued that it's melee dice would be the same as ranged attack. A very gray area...




While it may ultimately by ruled the other way, I don't think there is a gray area here, if using a ranged unit to summon the EE (which, in my opinion would be a very poor choice - red banners all the way Wink ) one wouldn't be able to use lore cards like Take Aim, nor Magic Missiles to assist in the summoning, as they only apply to ranged attacks, and the summoning is to be treated as the melee battle roll would go. Furthermore, Darken the Skies couldn't be used to get two cracks at it Very Happy


Todd, that was what I was trying to say - using a missile attack card to increase the melee for summoning

Cab
      
Caboose
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 00:26
DarkPadawan wrote on Thu, 29 November 2007 12:53

ColtsFan76 schrieb am Thu, 29 November 2007 20:43

I guess I was confused because you were asking about a question in which we were discussing if you could add creatures after using deployment decks.

So that we are on the same page, you may use creatures in the following ways:

1) If the Scenario already shows a Creature set-up
2) If the Scenario does not have acreature but does have a Customizable War Council, then you may allot Lore Master Tokens to the Creature space on the WC sheet
3) If the Scenario is void of units (i.e. a Call to Arms terrain only scenario) and you use Deployment Decks and draw a card with the creature symbol.

These are all official means. Anything else is a house rule.




You are missing a 4th case, CF.

4) From the Creatures Compendium, Generic Creature, Entry 14, (finally online):
Quote:

"If during the deployment phase none of the two players is deploying a creature, both players can choose to add a creature during the war council phase.


Dark.



Okay, how are items 2 and 4 different?

Cab
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 00:49
Caboose wrote on Thu, 29 November 2007 17:26

DarkPadawan wrote on Thu, 29 November 2007 12:53

ColtsFan76 schrieb am Thu, 29 November 2007 20:43

I guess I was confused because you were asking about a question in which we were discussing if you could add creatures after using deployment decks.

So that we are on the same page, you may use creatures in the following ways:

1) If the Scenario already shows a Creature set-up
2) If the Scenario does not have acreature but does have a Customizable War Council, then you may allot Lore Master Tokens to the Creature space on the WC sheet
3) If the Scenario is void of units (i.e. a Call to Arms terrain only scenario) and you use Deployment Decks and draw a card with the creature symbol.

These are all official means. Anything else is a house rule.




You are missing a 4th case, CF.

4) From the Creatures Compendium, Generic Creature, Entry 14, (finally online):
Quote:

"If during the deployment phase none of the two players is deploying a creature, both players can choose to add a creature during the war council phase.


Dark.



Okay, how are items 2 and 4 different?

Cab


That's what I was wondering!!! LOL
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 01:08
Caboose wrote on Thu, 29 November 2007 17:20

toddrew wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 17:56

Caboose wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 14:56

If it was an archer who did the summoning, it might be argued that it's melee dice would be the same as ranged attack. A very gray area...




While it may ultimately by ruled the other way, I don't think there is a gray area here, if using a ranged unit to summon the EE (which, in my opinion would be a very poor choice - red banners all the way Wink ) one wouldn't be able to use lore cards like Take Aim, nor Magic Missiles to assist in the summoning, as they only apply to ranged attacks, and the summoning is to be treated as the melee battle roll would go. Furthermore, Darken the Skies couldn't be used to get two cracks at it Very Happy


Todd, that was what I was trying to say - using a missile attack card to increase the melee for summoning

Cab

Maybe I am missing this conversation as well and we all agree. But Magic Missiles only gives you +2 dice in ranged attack. A melee attack is not a ranged attack so an archer would not get the +2d bonus. You have to be adjacent to the summoning circle for it to work - which is why the melee dice are used.

So Magic Missile would never increase your summoning dice - not because of it being a lore card, but because it increases the wrong thing.
      
toddrew
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 01:37
DarkPadawan wrote on Thu, 29 November 2007 12:53


You are missing a 4th case, CF.

4) From the Creatures Compendium, Generic Creature, Entry 14, (finally online):
Quote:

"If during the deployment phase none of the two players is deploying a creature, both players can choose to add a creature during the war council phase.




I hadn't seen that one before. And it's different from the aforementioned #2, in that it's referring to CTA games. I didn't know that if no creatures were deployed during the deployment phase, that either of the players could choose to field a creature with their war councils...which leads me to the following question: are those creatures considered part of the reserves? I would think not, but wonder how they fit into the references on some of the specialists cards.

EDIT: and, yeah, to hopefully clarify one of my earlier typically muddy posts, when summoning the EE any card that affects ranged attacks only would not affect the number of dice rolled in a summoning attempt. Agreed with ColtsFan, not sure if agreed with Caboose - is that what you're saying, Cab, Take Aim, Magic Missiles, etc. do not aid the summoner?

[Updated on: Fri, 30 November 2007 01:40]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 05:05
toddrew wrote on Thu, 29 November 2007 18:37

I hadn't seen that one before.

Interesting little nugget of information there. I am not fond of these compendiums because you can never keep up with new info posted.
      
DarkPadawan2
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 08:45
Todd, thanks for explaining.
The way I see it is, that whenever you are playing CtA (organized), you are

1) Placing the troops using the deployment cards. This phase consists of 4 steps and ends by calling the reserves (4.4 in the rules)

2) Calling the War Council(4.5).
Here you have the same options as for any other lore game, CtA or standard. You may now deploy creatures by sacrificing lore master levels as usual, provided that no creature was fielded during the card deployment phase (and that is the only exception from the standard rule).

3) Playing the specialist cards (4.6).

It seems to me that, in CtA (organized) there are so to say 3 "phases", which are played in sequence but are independent from each other (with the one constraint listed).

Dark.

PS: I fully agree, it is not too easy to find new entries in the Online compendia. For that reason I am maintaining the PDF compendia for the community and myself for easier reference. The "Creatures and CtA" entry, by the way, has been in the PDF version for some months now.

[Updated on: Fri, 30 November 2007 08:50]

      
Caboose
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 21:38
toddrew wrote on Thu, 29 November 2007 17:37

DarkPadawan wrote on Thu, 29 November 2007 12:53


You are missing a 4th case, CF.

4) From the Creatures Compendium, Generic Creature, Entry 14, (finally online):
Quote:

"If during the deployment phase none of the two players is deploying a creature, both players can choose to add a creature during the war council phase.




I hadn't seen that one before. And it's different from the aforementioned #2, in that it's referring to CTA games. I didn't know that if no creatures were deployed during the deployment phase, that either of the players could choose to field a creature with their war councils...which leads me to the following question: are those creatures considered part of the reserves? I would think not, but wonder how they fit into the references on some of the specialists cards.

EDIT: and, yeah, to hopefully clarify one of my earlier typically muddy posts, when summoning the EE any card that affects ranged attacks only would not affect the number of dice rolled in a summoning attempt. Agreed with ColtsFan, not sure if agreed with Caboose - is that what you're saying, Cab, Take Aim, Magic Missiles, etc. do not aid the summoner?



Correct those cards shouldn't help in aiding the summoning
Cab
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 21:41
toddrew wrote on Thu, 29 November 2007 17:37

DarkPadawan wrote on Thu, 29 November 2007 12:53


You are missing a 4th case, CF.

4) From the Creatures Compendium, Generic Creature, Entry 14, (finally online):
Quote:

"If during the deployment phase none of the two players is deploying a creature, both players can choose to add a creature during the war council phase.




I hadn't seen that one before. And it's different from the aforementioned #2, in that it's referring to CTA games. I didn't know that if no creatures were deployed during the deployment phase, that either of the players could choose to field a creature with their war councils...which leads me to the following question: are those creatures considered part of the reserves? I would think not, but wonder how they fit into the references on some of the specialists cards.



But in reality both #2 and #4 say the same thing, one is for CtA, the other is not. So thus I think we can say that either applies to both and remove one of the 2 rules for summoning creatures.

Cab
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 21:48
Caboose wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 14:41


But in reality both #2 and #4 say the same thing, one is for CtA, the other is not. So thus I think we can say that either applies to both and remove one of the 2 rules for summoning creatures.

Cab


There is no hard fast set of rules for summoning, I just like listing things out. I am fine with stating it 2 different ways because "#4" is something that i did not think was possible. It goes against what was said before and snuck in within the last month or so (according to the date of the post).

So if you want to restate the rules, I guess you could say:

You get to use creatures in the following scenarios:

1. Scenario defines it.
2. You use Deployment Decks and draw one.
3. After set-up, if no creatures are on the board, you may recruit one through your War Council.
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 22:18
ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 15:48


So if you want to restate the rules, I guess you could say:

You get to use creatures in the following scenarios:

1. Scenario defines it.
2. You use Deployment Decks and draw one.
3. After set-up, if no creatures are on the board, you may recruit one through your War Council.



I thought that, in a scenario, you always had the option to add a creature through the war council. I agree that, with CtoA you only got to do this if no creatures are on the board, but I thought that scenarios are less strict.
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Fri, 30 November 2007 23:04
jasoshoe wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 15:18

ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 15:48


So if you want to restate the rules, I guess you could say:

You get to use creatures in the following scenarios:

1. Scenario defines it.
2. You use Deployment Decks and draw one.
3. After set-up, if no creatures are on the board, you may recruit one through your War Council.



I thought that, in a scenario, you always had the option to add a creature through the war council. I agree that, with CtoA you only got to do this if no creatures are on the board, but I thought that scenarios are less strict.

We get into an issue of what's practical and what is theoretical.

Technically, you can only add a creature if the War Council is Customizable. I have checked the web exclusive scenarios lately, but the last time I looked, I don't think there are many scenarios that have both a Customizable War Council AND pre-defined creatures. So since they are mutually exclusive for the most part, we don't have to worry about it... at this time.

But yes, if a scenario had both a Creature and the Customizable War Council, then I guess you should be able to add more creatures if you want to. Which brings us back to the 4-part list DarkPadawan and I cobbled together. Sorry Caboose!
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Sat, 01 December 2007 16:15
ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 17:04

jasoshoe wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 15:18

ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 15:48


So if you want to restate the rules, I guess you could say:

You get to use creatures in the following scenarios:

1. Scenario defines it.
2. You use Deployment Decks and draw one.
3. After set-up, if no creatures are on the board, you may recruit one through your War Council.



I thought that, in a scenario, you always had the option to add a creature through the war council. I agree that, with CtoA you only got to do this if no creatures are on the board, but I thought that scenarios are less strict.

We get into an issue of what's practical and what is theoretical.

Technically, you can only add a creature if the War Council is Customizable. I have checked the web exclusive scenarios lately, but the last time I looked, I don't think there are many scenarios that have both a Customizable War Council AND pre-defined creatures. So since they are mutually exclusive for the most part, we don't have to worry about it... at this time.

I hate to nitpick, and I do want to thank you for all of the help you provide people on the board, but I did a quick look and found 2 adventures in the standard scenarios book, 3 in the epic book and 2 web exclusive that have a creature and a customizable war council. I'm certain there are more.

I'm too lazy to provide the links.

Standard Adventures:
Free Companies on a War Footing
Assaulting the Tourelles

Epic:
The Caliphate's Enforcer
Sultan of Swing
Moorish Giant

Web only:
Hill Camp (I think this is web only, I'm not sure.)
Goblin Gold


Anyway, if we're going to have a semi-official list of when you can deploy a creature, I think we need to adress this.
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Sun, 02 December 2007 01:22
ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 15:04

jasoshoe wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 15:18

ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 15:48


So if you want to restate the rules, I guess you could say:

You get to use creatures in the following scenarios:

1. Scenario defines it.
2. You use Deployment Decks and draw one.
3. After set-up, if no creatures are on the board, you may recruit one through your War Council.



I thought that, in a scenario, you always had the option to add a creature through the war council. I agree that, with CtoA you only got to do this if no creatures are on the board, but I thought that scenarios are less strict.

We get into an issue of what's practical and what is theoretical.

Technically, you can only add a creature if the War Council is Customizable. I have checked the web exclusive scenarios lately, but the last time I looked, I don't think there are many scenarios that have both a Customizable War Council AND pre-defined creatures. So since they are mutually exclusive for the most part, we don't have to worry about it... at this time.

But yes, if a scenario had both a Creature and the Customizable War Council, then I guess you should be able to add more creatures if you want to. Which brings us back to the 4-part list DarkPadawan and I cobbled together. Sorry Caboose!


Not so Colt.
Here it is in 2 steps :
1) Scenario lays down the initial set up OR you are using CTA to lay the set up of the board. If scenario or CTA allows a creature in initial setup, no more creatures (per the Monstrous Creature - Creatures Compendium - Generic Creature - Answer #14)

2) After set-up, if NO creatures are on the board, you may recruit one through your Customized War Council. If War Council is predefined by the scenario, then no creature. (I think there is one official scenario that states no creature - but don't hold me to it) [added bold for effect]

And I still would even say your 3 step is valid. I see no need for a 4th..since the customized war council can allow for a creature IF THERE IS NOT one on the board. (per the Monstrous Creature - Creatures Compendium - Generic Creature - Answer #14)

And I believe DoW did state the intend was to allow a max of 1 creature / side (however house rules might say otherwise - no need to go into house rules, since we could go on forever there!).

So show me WHERE there is a scenario THAT has a creature AND allows for another creature via custom WC ? (Official scenario of course).

Cab
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Sun, 02 December 2007 01:39
Also I can confirm that (max 1 creature) per Colts post and Eric confirmation of Colt's post:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=90898#msg_num_14

(and it only took, what 700+ postings for me to figure out those up/down arrows on the far right get me the message #..ROFL!)

Cab
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Sun, 02 December 2007 04:28
First off, there is no "list" so if Dark Padawan wants 4 items on that list and Caboose wants 2, have at it! How about we make it one item:

If the scenario doesn't give you a creature, but it has a customizable war council, and no one pulled a creature while using deployment decks, then you place a creature while setting up your War Council; otherwise, you get what you get.

There! Very Happy Everyone happy?

And in the last round of questions answered, DOW said you could have more than one creature per side, if you owned that many creatures. But they also said they would explain further in a future "suppliment." In the meantime, each creature costs 1 Lore Master Level, no matter how you get them.

(And for the record, I said there weren't "many" scenarios, not "any" Wink )
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Sun, 02 December 2007 10:51
Easy, my friends. I don't care how many points there are on any list. I just wanted to point you to the official rulings about Creatures and CtA.

What you are making of this information is completely up to you. Nothing is carved in stone and everybody is free to use whatever rules he likes.

ColtsFan, your are doing a great job as usual. Caboose, thanks for bringing life to the forums Wink, and yes you are a nitpicker Very Happy .

Dark.
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Sun, 02 December 2007 14:18
DarkPadawan wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 03:51

Easy, my friends. I don't care how many points there are on any list.

Exactly! That was the point I was trying to make through my sarcasm! Wink
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Mon, 03 December 2007 21:39
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 16:55

Sultan wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 15:24


I'm not saying your are wrong, I tend to agree. However, it doesn't use the same phrasing.


No, you just like to argue with me Smile

Mounted Charge gives you additional dice in melee. Summoning Circle says instead of battling use the melee dice to summon. It seems pretty clear that it covers all bases. I know that you tend to agree, but what logic do you have to support the opposite argument?

Remember, we aren't dealing with Hasbro and the GI Joe TCG. This is C&C and the most simple interpretation is usually the correct one.

Sorry for the delayed response. And I don't like arguing with you, the argument always goes on until I give in to you Wink

Here's the logic that would support the opposite argument.

1. Summoning Circle says "use Melee dice". This is determined by the color of banner. Mounted Charge says "Ordered units battle in melee at +1d". One could argue that Mounted Charge only gives a +1 modifier to "ordered units battling". However, if the Summoning Circle is being used, that unit does not battle. The compendium states that the summoning "takes place in lieu of battling". There is no enemy targeted as in battle.

2. In many of the responses from DOW they comment on what the mechanics are supposed to represent (perhaps this could be called the intent, or spirit of the game). In the case of the Summoning Circle, we have a unit (representing a mass of people) engaged in an action (chanting, praying, hoping, sacrificing, and whatever else is needed to summon an Earth Elemental). However, they are not doing battle. In the case of Mounted Charge, we have an enchantment invoked that allows mounted units to battle in a fierce manor. It seems clear to me, that the spirit of the cards has Mounted Charge as a combat enhancer.

I'm not trying to convince you of this. Just trying to explain the opposite argument.

Again, let me state. I tend to agree with you. But I *could* see the other way. I think I know what DOW will say, but I'd like to hear from them officially.
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Tue, 04 December 2007 00:53
Sultan wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 13:39

ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 16:55

Sultan wrote on Wed, 28 November 2007 15:24


I'm not saying your are wrong, I tend to agree. However, it doesn't use the same phrasing.


No, you just like to argue with me Smile

Mounted Charge gives you additional dice in melee. Summoning Circle says instead of battling use the melee dice to summon. It seems pretty clear that it covers all bases. I know that you tend to agree, but what logic do you have to support the opposite argument?

Remember, we aren't dealing with Hasbro and the GI Joe TCG. This is C&C and the most simple interpretation is usually the correct one.

Sorry for the delayed response. And I don't like arguing with you, the argument always goes on until I give in to you Wink

Here's the logic that would support the opposite argument.

1. Summoning Circle says "use Melee dice". This is determined by the color of banner. Mounted Charge says "Ordered units battle in melee at +1d". One could argue that Mounted Charge only gives a +1 modifier to "ordered units battling". However, if the Summoning Circle is being used, that unit does not battle. The compendium states that the summoning "takes place in lieu of battling". There is no enemy targeted as in battle.

2. In many of the responses from DOW they comment on what the mechanics are supposed to represent (perhaps this could be called the intent, or spirit of the game). In the case of the Summoning Circle, we have a unit (representing a mass of people) engaged in an action (chanting, praying, hoping, sacrificing, and whatever else is needed to summon an Earth Elemental). However, they are not doing battle. In the case of Mounted Charge, we have an enchantment invoked that allows mounted units to battle in a fierce manor. It seems clear to me, that the spirit of the cards has Mounted Charge as a combat enhancer.

I'm not trying to convince you of this. Just trying to explain the opposite argument.

Again, let me state. I tend to agree with you. But I *could* see the other way. I think I know what DOW will say, but I'd like to hear from them officially.


Sultan I see what you are trying to say as well. The fact that the unit is summoning in lieu of battle and thus, I gather there should be no +1 die modifier if one is summoning, based on what I read from your reply above.

Also, you will note, that the same text is used on the Battlelore card. And pretty close to the same text for Leadership card. Only those 3 command cards (Mounted Charge, Leadership and Battlelore) have the +1 die modifier text.

And based on other people's testimonies, it does take some time & luck to get a summoned creature on the board. Plus don't forget that a person also has placed ONE level in the War Council for the creature (it might have been by choice or not, but just something I wanted to pointed out as well).

Thus if a person does wish to use an ordered unit for summoning, I would see no difference for using the +1 die modifier for melee for summoning - i.e. would allow the +1 die to be used for summoning.

Even if it was for a mounted charge, since a person is possibily forsaking TWO attacks with a mounted unit, should a pursuit option open for that unit.

There can be only ONE unit / summoning circle and thus the +1 die would apply for one die roll.

Thus I would have no qualms with the +1 use for summoning vs melee. And remember it is in the "spirit" of what the card intends (plus remember it is a game too). Why try to haggle over one die that MAY or MAY not summon a creature?!

Cab
p.s as for points - no, I wasn't trying to be nitpick..just didn't see why #2 and #4 were different.



      
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Re:Next set of various questions Tue, 04 December 2007 01:17
Sultan wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:39


Sorry for the delayed response. And I don't like arguing with you, the argument always goes on until I give in to you Wink

True dat.

Quote:

Here's the logic that would support the opposite argument.

1. Summoning Circle says "use Melee dice". This is determined by the color of banner. Mounted Charge says "Ordered units battle in melee at +1d". One could argue that Mounted Charge only gives a +1 modifier to "ordered units battling". However, if the Summoning Circle is being used, that unit does not battle. The compendium states that the summoning "takes place in lieu of battling". There is no enemy targeted as in battle.

2. In many of the responses from DOW they comment on what the mechanics are supposed to represent (perhaps this could be called the intent, or spirit of the game). In the case of the Summoning Circle, we have a unit (representing a mass of people) engaged in an action (chanting, praying, hoping, sacrificing, and whatever else is needed to summon an Earth Elemental). However, they are not doing battle. In the case of Mounted Charge, we have an enchantment invoked that allows mounted units to battle in a fierce manor. It seems clear to me, that the spirit of the cards has Mounted Charge as a combat enhancer.

I'm not trying to convince you of this. Just trying to explain the opposite argument.

Again, let me state. I tend to agree with you. But I *could* see the other way. I think I know what DOW will say, but I'd like to hear from them officially.

Again, i think the point is that Summoning says it uses the melee dice. You are making a restriction saying that is ONLY determined by the color of the unit. (OK, you are not making that argument for yourself just the counterpoint.) I am saying that is not the case. A Mounted Charge, for example, now makes the dice +1 in melee. This is the melee dice that Summoning requires.

Summoning happens in place of battling. In other words, you can't summon and battle. But summoning is still a "battle" of sorts since it happens in the battle phase.

So Summon=battle, meless dice = dice +1. if I am wrong, then I will finally write up those Carcassonne player aids for vassal. Wink
      
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Re:Next set of various questions Tue, 04 December 2007 19:51
ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007



So Summon=battle, meless dice = dice +1. if I am wrong, then I will finally write up those Carcassonne player aids for vassal. Wink



I hope you are not wrong my friend. I know you probably have better things to do than that! Twisted Evil

Cab

[Updated on: Tue, 04 December 2007 19:54]

      
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Re:Next set of various questions Wed, 09 January 2008 21:13
ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 18:17


So Summon=battle, meless dice = dice +1. if I am wrong, then I will finally write up those Carcassonne player aids for vassal. Wink


Surprised Oh my... DOW disagreed! Now you must write up all those player aids! HAHAHAHA Sweet Victory! Twisted Evil
      
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