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*player166028
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  Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Wed, 19 December 2007 19:56
I'm just starting to use this forum (awesome user base by the way) so i apologize if this has been answered already (or if it's plainly there in the rule book). I've got a lot of catching up to do.

In a Call to Arms game, can levy tokens be used to substitute non-Basic Game units? For example can i use a red token to deploy a red halberd unit? A green token to deploy a Goblin band? Can i substitute a human unit with any other race? If the answer is yes, it seems it would often be to your advantage to get a levy token.

I never really paid much attention to levy tokens but since i finally got the Epic expansion and i was looking at playing the Reluctant Allies variant with only one basic game(i refuse to buy the same game twice..I'd buy a box full of banners but no way am i paying for a base game twice) so I'm expecting to see a lot more of those tokens..

..on a side note, is there such a thing as buying a box full of banners Smile

Thanks,
R
      
CitizenK2
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Wed, 19 December 2007 20:47
musk wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 14:56

I'm just starting to use this forum (awesome user base by the way) so i apologize if this has been answered already (or if it's plainly there in the rule book). I've got a lot of catching up to do.

In a Call to Arms game, can levy tokens be used to substitute non-Basic Game units? For example can i use a red token to deploy a red halberd unit? A green token to deploy a Goblin band? Can i substitute a human unit with any other race? If the answer is yes, it seems it would often be to your advantage to get a levy token.

I never really paid much attention to levy tokens but since i finally got the Epic expansion and i was looking at playing the Reluctant Allies variant with only one basic game(i refuse to buy the same game twice..I'd buy a box full of banners but no way am i paying for a base game twice) so I'm expecting to see a lot more of those tokens..

..on a side note, is there such a thing as buying a box full of banners Smile

Thanks,
R


I don't believe that is the intent, especially since Specialists are deployed after the levy tokens are resolved. I do believe some board members utilise a variant that allows that though.

Shawn
      
Roobarb
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Wed, 19 December 2007 20:56


In a Call to Arms game, can levy tokens be used to substitute non-Basic Game units? For example can i use a red token to deploy a red halberd unit? A green token to deploy a Goblin band? Can i substitute a human unit with any other race? If the answer is yes, it seems it would often be to your advantage to get a levy token.


as far as i know no but if you use the impromtu mode you wont need the levy tokens

..on a side note, is there such a thing as buying a box full of banners Smile

alas no

      
*player166028
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Wed, 19 December 2007 21:30
I also tend to think that this might not have been the intent but is there any ruling that states that?

Would the "no" answer apply to both:

-The ability to replace a token with "Any" same color (or lower) banner (including halberds, spears, horns, etc...)

-The ability to replace a token with a different unit type (a goblin unit to replace a token)


Having the ability to do either of those would created a whole bunch of new things to consider in the deployment phase that's for sure.

R
      
CitizenK2
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Wed, 19 December 2007 21:33
musk wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 16:30

I also tend to think that this might not have been the intent but is there any ruling that states that?

Would the "no" answer apply to both:

-The ability to replace a token with "Any" same color (or lower) banner (including halberds, spears, horns, etc...)

-The ability to replace a token with a different unit type (a goblin unit to replace a token)


Having the ability to do either of those would created a whole bunch of new things to consider in the deployment phase that's for sure.

R


No ruling to my knowledge. Call to Arms predates the specialist packs - when the CtA rules were published, the only "specialists" were things like Dwarven Mercenaries or Illusionary troops, all of which were valid choices for levy tokens since they just used basic units.

Basic goblins and dwarves are valid levy substitutions.
      
Caboose
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Thu, 20 December 2007 17:44
musk wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 13:30

I also tend to think that this might not have been the intent but is there any ruling that states that?

Would the "no" answer apply to both:

-The ability to replace a token with "Any" same color (or lower) banner (including halberds, spears, horns, etc...)

-The ability to replace a token with a different unit type (a goblin unit to replace a token)


Having the ability to do either of those would created a whole bunch of new things to consider in the deployment phase that's for sure.

R


You can replace a XXX levy token with any BASE XXX unit (Be it dwarf, human or goblin), where XXX is the color of that levy token.

Base units are calvary, infantry and archers and crossbow.

Anything that came from an expansion would NOT be able to be replaced with a levy token.

The one "gray" area is in regards to creatures. Even though the creature on the CtA cards are green, and some creatures are blue, if there is no creatures left, people are saying the token FOR a creature should be green. But one could make the case it could be a blue levy token if there is no creatures available due to 2 of the 3 creatures are blue (as of this writing). Thus you might make your own call on this item.

Cab

[Updated on: Thu, 20 December 2007 17:45]

      
toddrew
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Thu, 20 December 2007 18:21
Caboose wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 09:44

You can replace a XXX levy token with any BASE XXX unit (Be it dwarf, human or goblin), where XXX is the color of that levy token.


Has this been verified somewhere? I do not ask because I doubt you (I've always imagined this to be the case, though I hope otherwise Wink ), but rather, I just like knowing that there's an official word to point to if a rule is not obvious, in order to clear up confusion.

Though, anyone who plays with me is welcome to use the "red is red" rule Wink
      
*player166028
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Thu, 20 December 2007 19:43
toddrew wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 12:21

Caboose wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 09:44

You can replace a XXX levy token with any BASE XXX unit (Be it dwarf, human or goblin), where XXX is the color of that levy token.


Has this been verified somewhere? I do not ask because I doubt you (I've always imagined this to be the case, though I hope otherwise Wink ), but rather, I just like knowing that there's an official word to point to if a rule is not obvious, in order to clear up confusion.

Though, anyone who plays with me is welcome to use the "red is red" rule Wink



I've got the same question as toddrew here. Has this been verified (either by having it spelled out somewhere in the rules or by DoW giving us as answer)? I do agree that the "Only Base Unit" feels like the intended rule but i can't find anything that really points to this ruling being true Confused

If they knew the expansion packs where coming when they released CtA, you would think that this little rule wouldn't have been missed. Until someone comes up with a valid explanation, i don't see why we should assume that we can only deploy base units.

R

It really would be nice to get an official word on this.

      
toddrew
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Thu, 20 December 2007 19:53
musk wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 11:43

If they knew the expansion packs where coming when they released CtA, you would think that this little rule wouldn't have been missed. Until someone comes up with a valid explanation, i don't see why we should assume that we can only deploy base units.



My thoughts exactly. That said, could certainly be an oversight.
      
Willange
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Thu, 20 December 2007 20:00
I summon forth Eric to resolve this matter! Very Happy
      
*player166028
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Thu, 20 December 2007 20:08
William Lange wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 14:00

I summon forth Eric to resolve this matter! Very Happy


Well you can't do this until you step on the DoW summoning circle and roll a lore!!
      
Caboose
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Fri, 21 December 2007 02:38
musk wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 11:43

toddrew wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 12:21

Caboose wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 09:44

You can replace a XXX levy token with any BASE XXX unit (Be it dwarf, human or goblin), where XXX is the color of that levy token.


Has this been verified somewhere? I do not ask because I doubt you (I've always imagined this to be the case, though I hope otherwise Wink ), but rather, I just like knowing that there's an official word to point to if a rule is not obvious, in order to clear up confusion.

Though, anyone who plays with me is welcome to use the "red is red" rule Wink



I've got the same question as toddrew here. Has this been verified (either by having it spelled out somewhere in the rules or by DoW giving us as answer)? I do agree that the "Only Base Unit" feels like the intended rule but i can't find anything that really points to this ruling being true Confused

If they knew the expansion packs where coming when they released CtA, you would think that this little rule wouldn't have been missed. Until someone comes up with a valid explanation, i don't see why we should assume that we can only deploy base units.

R

It really would be nice to get an official word on this.




Sorry, but I know there is a post by Richard Borg (either here or on BGG) that stated more or less what I stated above. Alas I cannot find it (tried for 15 minutes - sorry, but getting hungry).

So let's back it up and thus you can see what I say is true, using the CtA manual. Also it seems, based on the rule book, that Levy tokens are only for organized mode (didn't see any mention in impromptu - see above about hungry as for not spending more time!)

First, in step 4.1 (page 8 of CtA) the appropriate banners, which refers to step 4 of Impromptu (page 6) which refers to "Setting up the Game" in base rulebook (page 8 of Battlelore rulebook).

Thus in this step you are given the banners that represent the base units. THEN you draw the CtA cards. We know the CtA cards only have the base units (as of this writing, maybe that might get expanded to represent some of the expansions..only DoW knows, just speculating here).

Thus in step 4.4 - Call the Reserve, you replace the token at this time. Rules state that one can replace an infantry with a mounted and vice versa, ASSUMING that a unit still exists. Also one CANNOT replace the token with a creature or anything else BUT a unit (left column, last paragraph, page 9 of CtA rulebook).

Also note that Levy replacements are placed on the BASELINE (most people miss that - I know, kinda wierd - haven't heard anything as to why that is from Richard or DoW). (see 2nd paragraph in section 4.4, page 9 of CtA).

Thus makes the case it has to be base units only. Since the tokens indicated a base unit that WAS to be located there and thus one replaces it with ANOTHER base unit of the same or lesser color.

Lastly, if you could replace levy tokens with expansion (non base) unit, it would make the specialist cards less valuable/important, since some of them are replace 1 unit with another. If you could do that with a levy token, it would make that card less valuable IN ADDITION of putting a specialist unit on the field of play in this step (step 4.4) vs step 4.6.

As I mentioned above, trying to get clarified about creature tokens and all the creatures are gone, if they should be green or blue - currently still green, but one could make the case for a blue, namely if both blue creatures are out.

Cab

additional note - From the battlelore blog :
http://blog.battlelore.com/2007/02/23/call-to-arms/en/

"In Organized mode, these decisions are further complicated by the fact that you draw your Deployment cards from a deck of your own choosing rather than a pre-established set. One of the consequences is that you are no longer guaranteed to find the troops you'd like to raise from the common Army pool, when the time comes to deploy them.

Feudal Levy Tokens

As a result, you may end up having to call on some Feudal Levies instead. These are represented by Feudal Levy tokens of the same color as the units you can no longer deploy. During the troops deployment, these tokens are exchanged for other units of equal or lower color rank."

(Note - italics added for emphasis)

That there also seems to indicate that the base units are used for replacing the tokens.

[Updated on: Fri, 21 December 2007 03:13]

      
Willange
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Fri, 21 December 2007 05:45
Okay then Musk, you smart alec Wink *William Moves Giant Spider to DoW Summoning Circle and spends a lore* There. Happy now? Very Happy
      
toddrew
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Fri, 21 December 2007 13:23
The reason I believe that only the units that come with base game are allowed for replacing the levy tokens is, similar to what Caboose was pointing out, only base units are represented on the deployment cards (currently anyway - I'm holding my breath for "race specific" deployment decks to make appearances as we travel on down the road...). The only current exception to that is the creatures.

So, sorta in a way as ignoring flags=bold so when a lore card allows a unit to ignore a flag or flags that unit becomes bold (even though morale is not explicitly detailed on said card), an implied restriction probably exists.

O, and William Lange, well aware that some of your tongue was in a cheek, but that won't work - lore must be rolled Wink
      
Roobarb
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Fri, 21 December 2007 14:48
i think i read the same thing that caboose read or was it from coltsfan i cant remember
      
Caboose
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Re:Levy Tokens with Expansion Units Fri, 21 December 2007 19:03
Roobarb wrote on Fri, 21 December 2007 06:48

i think i read the same thing that caboose read or was it from coltsfan i cant remember


Actually from DoW Battlelore blog as well as from CtA and battlelore rulebooks. Smile
      
    
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