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Sniper
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Air Pack Question Fri, 18 January 2008 05:26
If I have a plane in the air at the beginning of my turn and don't give it an order I understand that it must come off the board; however, do you still do an air check on that unordered plane to see if it was lost in combat( i.e it was adjacent to an enemy unit)?


From page 8 of the rulebook: "...On any turn at the start of which your Airplane is already airborne, you MUST do an Air check roll immediately after ordering your Airplane, but before the start of your movement phase."

Thanks in advance for your help!
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Air Pack Question Fri, 18 January 2008 06:24
As you quoted in your post, an Air Check is done between the Order phase and the Movement phase.

If you don't give the plane an order, it is not around for the Check to take place.

Therefor, no order, no Air Check.
      
Sniper
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Re:Air Pack Question Fri, 18 January 2008 06:47
That's what I thought, thanks for the clarification!
      
Caboose
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Re:Air Pack Question Sat, 26 January 2008 09:49
To clarify, let me see if this applies as well, with a subtle new question as well

First, there is an airplane up and it's in the left section. And there is a lot of enemy units in the area around the airplane too.

But I have an order only for the right plus I want to play an Air Sortie (the new "card" that is in the Air Pack - sorry don't have the rulebook in front of me).

Thus I presume the following happens :
1) The airplane in the left goes bye-bye. No air roll check since it wasn't ordered. And thus give a sly smile to my opponent to thus deny him/her a possible medal.
2) The new airplane gets placed on the right side. Let's say I start it in the middle of the my side on the right side. Since it gets to move 4, the FIRST hex it starts in, does that count as ONE of the movement hexes or not ?!? (i.e. does it get to move 3 or 4 more after the initial hex)
a) Likewise if it takes off from an airfield/carrier, does that "takeoff" hex count as hex 0 or 1 ?

3) Thus no aircheck done since I used the Air Sortie card to get the airplane up
4) Everything else is normal

Oh yes, one other question - sorry, in regards to the US Marines which gets an extra unit to move, does that also apply to the airplane ? If necessary can elaborate but don't have my rulebook in front of me.

Thanks
Cab
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Air Pack Question Sat, 26 January 2008 16:25
1) Yes, you may do this according to the rules, p.4:
"If a player plays an Air Sortie card (or equivalent) when he already has an airplane unit on the battlefield...the player may opt to let its Airplane disappear off the board and initiate a new Air Sortie with a fresh Airplane instead!"

2) A plane moves 4 hexes. When it is introduced onto the board, that is considered its first hex. So place it alon a full hex along the perimeter and move it 3 additional spaces.

2a)You can only take off from an aircraft carrier or airfield if you had a plane on it already. So in this specific case where you have a plane on the field and you are bringing a new one onto the board, you would ignore any airfields/aircraft carriers. If you had a ready to take off marker on one of those spots, the plane already exists on the board, so it would move the full 4 hexes.

3) that is correct
4) thatis correct)

bonus question. USMC allow you to move on extra unit. If you play a card that allows 4 units to move, you get to move 5. One of these units may be the airplane. You can still play an Air Sortie card along with that card to prevent the Air Check roll. But the USMC rules will not effect the Air Sortie card directly.
      
Caboose
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Re:Air Pack Question Sun, 27 January 2008 07:23
ColtsFan76 wrote on Sat, 26 January 2008 08:25

1) Yes, you may do this according to the rules, p.4:
"If a player plays an Air Sortie card (or equivalent) when he already has an airplane unit on the battlefield...the player may opt to let its Airplane disappear off the board and initiate a new Air Sortie with a fresh Airplane instead!"

2) A plane moves 4 hexes. When it is introduced onto the board, that is considered its first hex. So place it alon a full hex along the perimeter and move it 3 additional spaces.

2a)You can only take off from an aircraft carrier or airfield if you had a plane on it already. So in this specific case where you have a plane on the field and you are bringing a new one onto the board, you would ignore any airfields/aircraft carriers. If you had a ready to take off marker on one of those spots, the plane already exists on the board, so it would move the full 4 hexes.



Thus to clarify then, if the airplane starts on a airfield or aircraft carrier hex, it could move up to 4 hexes away from the starting hex. Correct ? (just trying to sort all these little details on where the start of movement for an airplane begins!)

Also since I just thought of this, in regards to the aircraft carrier - Can the aircraft carrier move (don't recall if it can or not, I'm presuming it can for this question, otherwise it is mute!) and then the airplane that is on the aircraft move as well ??

Thanks
Cab
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Air Pack Question Sun, 27 January 2008 08:01
Caboose wrote on Sun, 27 January 2008 00:23

Thus to clarify then, if the airplane starts on a airfield or aircraft carrier hex, it could move up to 4 hexes away from the starting hex. Correct ? (just trying to sort all these little details on where the start of movement for an airplane begins!)

Yes. You move 4 hexes. If you start of the board, the hex you place the plane on is your 1st of 4 hexes. If you are already on the board, the hex you start on doesn't count as you are already on it.

Quote:

Also since I just thought of this, in regards to the aircraft carrier - Can the aircraft carrier move (don't recall if it can or not, I'm presuming it can for this question, otherwise it is mute!) and then the airplane that is on the aircraft move as well ??

Thanks
Cab


Good question. Since we don't have AC in any official scenario, it hasn't come up. Looks like we need to default to Axis & Allies rules and say that the Plane can't artificially increase its movement by riding the carrier. In other words, if you ordered a plane to take off from an AC that moved 2 hexes, the plane could only move another 2 hexes max.
      
*player267697
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Re:Air Pack Question Mon, 28 January 2008 19:05
I've also a question about Aircraft carriers, can you get a Corsair(the plane which is aircraft capable) without a Carrier through a normal play of the Air Sortie card ?

Another question, if you have a sceanrio which features an Airfield with a landed plane and a ready-to-take-of marker which represents a different plane, may you start the plane which is represented by the marker first ?
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Air Pack Question Mon, 28 January 2008 20:09
For the Corsair, from the rule book:

Scenarios featuring British Forces
(and Allied nations not on this list)
&#8226; Corsair: Carrier-based from June 1943, Pacific Theater

Scenarios featuring United States Forces
&#8226; Corsair: ground-based Marine squadrons from January 1943;
based on carriers from September 1943, Pacific Theater

So it is very specific when you can use the corsair. For non-AC scenarios, only with the USMC from January of 43 on.

===============

Not quite sure I follow your second question. The RTTO marker doesn't represent a specific plane - just the ability to mobilize a plane. I think if you have RTTO markers, you can pick any legal plane to launch.

However, based on the situation you presented, only 1 plane model is allowed on the board at a time. So if you have one plane model on the board - even if it is grounded - you could not use the RTTO to launch a 2nd type of plane. RTTOs are only "turned in" when no plane is on the board.
      
Caboose
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Re:Air Pack Question Mon, 28 January 2008 21:05
ColtsFan76 wrote on Sun, 27 January 2008 00:01

Caboose wrote on Sun, 27 January 2008 00:23

Thus to clarify then, if the airplane starts on a airfield or aircraft carrier hex, it could move up to 4 hexes away from the starting hex. Correct ? (just trying to sort all these little details on where the start of movement for an airplane begins!)

Yes. You move 4 hexes. If you start of the board, the hex you place the plane on is your 1st of 4 hexes. If you are already on the board, the hex you start on doesn't count as you are already on it.

Quote:

Also since I just thought of this, in regards to the aircraft carrier - Can the aircraft carrier move (don't recall if it can or not, I'm presuming it can for this question, otherwise it is mute!) and then the airplane that is on the aircraft move as well ??

Thanks
Cab


Good question. Since we don't have AC in any official scenario, it hasn't come up. Looks like we need to default to Axis & Allies rules and say that the Plane can't artificially increase its movement by riding the carrier. In other words, if you ordered a plane to take off from an AC that moved 2 hexes, the plane could only move another 2 hexes max.


As good or bad as Axis & Allies is (don't know - since I usually avoid games from Hasbro, etc), I don't think we should use them as an answer to M44. Since I bet they are totally different (don't know but I suspect so). Thus an apples to apples comparison would be best (a similiar system like C&C or BL)

Also kinda surprised that AC has been introduced in the Pacific Theatre expansion and just realized yesterday that there isn't any official scenario using them. Seems odd, since usually DoW includes most of the new items in a scenario. And it's not like it was just introduced in Air Pack (well the airplanes, yes!).

Plus I would have thought someone would have thought to ask the above since it would seem logical to have an airplane take off from an AC, since that is part of what an AC does, carry airplanes!

Cab
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Air Pack Question Mon, 28 January 2008 22:16
Caboose wrote on Mon, 28 January 2008 14:05

As good or bad as Axis & Allies is (don't know - since I usually avoid games from Hasbro, etc), I don't think we should use them as an answer to M44. Since I bet they are totally different (don't know but I suspect so). Thus an apples to apples comparison would be best (a similiar system like C&C or BL)

The Axis & Allies thing was a semi-joke. But an A&A comparison is a heck of a lot closer than a C&C or BL reference.

Quote:

Also kinda surprised that AC has been introduced in the Pacific Theatre expansion and just realized yesterday that there isn't any official scenario using them. Seems odd, since usually DoW includes most of the new items in a scenario. And it's not like it was just introduced in Air Pack (well the airplanes, yes!).

Perhaps you should continue to stay awat from the Terrain Pack. I would venture a guess that 75% of what was included in the instructions were never officially incorporated into scenarios.

Quote:

Plus I would have thought someone would have thought to ask the above since it would seem logical to have an airplane take off from an AC, since that is part of what an AC does, carry airplanes!

Yeah, they carry airplanes. They don't stroll around with them after that. If carriers get introduced, it is not something you are going to want to waste orders on moving it back and forth. You may try to find a convenient rendezvous point and park it. You would only move it if it fell into range of something harrassing it.

I am not very knowledgeable about carrier operations, but I don't think they make sudden and sustained moves when the planes are taking off. They rotate into the wind to help with the lift and that's about it. I think they would remain as stationary as possible.

So I still stand by my guess that an aircraft carrier cannot artificially increase the range of an airplane. And it just hit me how it should probably play out within Memoir 44 rules.

You have two orders - one for the AC, one for the plane. Next phase: movement. You may move units in any order that you please but only one unit at a time (standard rules). So if you move the AC, it moves on its own leaving the airplane alone. You then move the airplane.

If you only order the AC, then the plane is not an ordered unit and remains "cargo" going whereever the AC goes. And as far as that goes, you can use the Supply Train as a guide. It also carries another unit. A unit on the train can't battle while on the train. When the train gets to the station, the units are moved to an adjacent hex but can't move or battle either. So the tone would seem to be more restrictive than more lenient.
      
*player267697
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Re:Air Pack Question Mon, 28 January 2008 23:34
Many thanks for your fast answer.


ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 28 January 2008 20:09

For the Corsair, from the rule book:

Scenarios featuring British Forces
(and Allied nations not on this list)
&#8226; Corsair: Carrier-based from June 1943, Pacific Theater

Scenarios featuring United States Forces
&#8226; Corsair: ground-based Marine squadrons from January 1943;
based on carriers from September 1943 Pacific Theater

So it is very specific when you can use the corsair. For non-AC scenarios, only with the USMC from January of 43 on.


The bold phrase is my problem, I understand that it can only be used by the USMC from 1943 on, but do I need an Aircraft carrier in addition to this ?

ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 28 January 2008 20:09


Not quite sure I follow your second question. The RTTO marker doesn't represent a specific plane - just the ability to mobilize a plane. I think if you have RTTO markers, you can pick any legal plane to launch.

However, based on the situation you presented, only 1 plane model is allowed on the board at a time. So if you have one plane model on the board - even if it is grounded - you could not use the RTTO to launch a 2nd type of plane. RTTOs are only "turned in" when no plane is on the board.


You got me right, my problem arises from scenario 6(39) Eastern Front "Gates of Moscow", there is an airfiel with a Yak 7 and a ready to take off marker which represents either an additional Yak 7 or a Yak 1 and I was wondering if I could start with the Yak 1. Thanks for your clarification.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Air Pack Question Tue, 29 January 2008 00:03
As the british, you need a carrier. As the US you need a carrier OR the USMC (those are 2 separate conditions). So if you have the USMC you may deploy a corsair without having an AC.

Since ACs are not officially used yet, the ONLY way to get a corsair is to have USMC ground forces and the date of the scenario to match.
      
*player267697
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Re:Air Pack Question Tue, 29 January 2008 00:13
Ah,
you're right. Thanks for the clarification.
      
Caboose
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Re:Air Pack Question Wed, 06 February 2008 19:12
ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 28 January 2008 14:16

Caboose wrote on Mon, 28 January 2008 14:05

As good or bad as Axis & Allies is (don't know - since I usually avoid games from Hasbro, etc), I don't think we should use them as an answer to M44. Since I bet they are totally different (don't know but I suspect so). Thus an apples to apples comparison would be best (a similiar system like C&C or BL)

The Axis & Allies thing was a semi-joke. But an A&A comparison is a heck of a lot closer than a C&C or BL reference.

Quote:

Also kinda surprised that AC has been introduced in the Pacific Theatre expansion and just realized yesterday that there isn't any official scenario using them. Seems odd, since usually DoW includes most of the new items in a scenario. And it's not like it was just introduced in Air Pack (well the airplanes, yes!).

Perhaps you should continue to stay awat from the Terrain Pack. I would venture a guess that 75% of what was included in the instructions were never officially incorporated into scenarios.

Quote:

Plus I would have thought someone would have thought to ask the above since it would seem logical to have an airplane take off from an AC, since that is part of what an AC does, carry airplanes!

Yeah, they carry airplanes. They don't stroll around with them after that. If carriers get introduced, it is not something you are going to want to waste orders on moving it back and forth. You may try to find a convenient rendezvous point and park it. You would only move it if it fell into range of something harrassing it.

I am not very knowledgeable about carrier operations, but I don't think they make sudden and sustained moves when the planes are taking off. They rotate into the wind to help with the lift and that's about it. I think they would remain as stationary as possible.

So I still stand by my guess that an aircraft carrier cannot artificially increase the range of an airplane. And it just hit me how it should probably play out within Memoir 44 rules.

You have two orders - one for the AC, one for the plane. Next phase: movement. You may move units in any order that you please but only one unit at a time (standard rules). So if you move the AC, it moves on its own leaving the airplane alone. You then move the airplane.

If you only order the AC, then the plane is not an ordered unit and remains "cargo" going whereever the AC goes. And as far as that goes, you can use the Supply Train as a guide. It also carries another unit. A unit on the train can't battle while on the train. When the train gets to the station, the units are moved to an adjacent hex but can't move or battle either. So the tone would seem to be more restrictive than more lenient.


Well I was thinking the OTHER way around...if you are trying to land the Airplace ONTO the AC, one could argue they are definitely 2 independent items BEFORE landing. And thus one could order BOTH aircraft and AC. And thus the aircraft moves and lands on the AC and the AC could move.

I know the AC probably wouldn't move much but maybe it was required for the situation at the time.

And thus if the above was true, one could make the case for the OTHER way of moving the AC and then the aircraft taking off.

But like you stated, there has been no official scenario for an AC, even though we got another one in the Air Pack expansion. Thus 2 AC now and sadly no scenarios for them..very odd.

Based on the summary card for AC, there lies the "grey" area. It states it can move 0-2 ocean hexes (but not adjacent to beach hexes - talk about one big ship stuck in mud!). Plus also if air rules are in effect, SOME airplanes can take off and land on it. (Note : I put the word SOME in big letters since there are probably some aircraft like the P38 that are too big to land on it...but again, open for interpretation.)

Cab
      
    
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