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Chaotic_easy_going
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Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Thu, 24 January 2008 05:25
Hi - sorry if this has been answered allready - I swear I read someting about this, but can't seem to find it anywhere.

If a normal human unit is retreating (say 2 flags have been rolled against it, and the first hex it retreats into places it next to two friendly units, does it immediatley become bold, and ignore the second flag?

I belived that they did, but that they could not battle back against the unit that originally made them flee. This is how we played it, but we were uncertain.

Thanks!

~ CEG
      
toddrew
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Thu, 24 January 2008 05:54
The way it consistently works in BattleLore (and other C&C games) is that the initial state of the defending unit is what determines how the roll will be interpreted. If a unit is bold1, the first flag may be ignored and any others must be taken, regardless if the unit passes through hexes that end up supporting it. If a unit does end up in a supported position after an attack, it may then be considered bold again and ignore one flag rolled against it and be eligible for battling back - however, if the next attack upon it is from the same unit that just attacked (through follow on actions), while the defending unit would still be able to ignore one flag it would not be eligible to battle back, having already retreated during the current battle.

[Updated on: Thu, 24 January 2008 05:54]

      
yangtze
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Thu, 24 January 2008 12:04
however, if the next attack upon it is from the same unit that just attacked (through follow on actions), while the defending unit would still be able to ignore one flag it would not be eligible to battle back, having already retreated during the current battle.

Is this clarified in the FAQ somewhere?

[Updated on: Thu, 24 January 2008 12:16]

      
toddrew
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Thu, 24 January 2008 13:18
yangtze wrote on Thu, 24 January 2008 04:04


Is this clarified in the FAQ somewhere?


I don't know about a FAQ (I read these forums so often, I just go by what I pick up from here - which doesn't mean that I always remember these rulings exactly Laughing This one, however, I was pretty sure of, and rightly so Wink ), but here's the relevant post from one of the horses' mouths:

In depth on Bold
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Thu, 24 January 2008 14:08
yangtze wrote on Thu, 24 January 2008 05:04

however, if the next attack upon it is from the same unit that just attacked (through follow on actions), while the defending unit would still be able to ignore one flag it would not be eligible to battle back, having already retreated during the current battle.

Is this clarified in the FAQ somewhere?

Not in the FAQ.

It's in the rules. P.31, first paragraph between the 2 pictures.
      
yangtze
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Thu, 24 January 2008 15:03
In the rules? Oh I never read those... Laughing

Doh! Thanks CF.
      
Chaotic_easy_going
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Thu, 24 January 2008 15:03
Ahhh Ok - Well, we'll get it right next time. Very Happy

Thanks for the replies,

~ CEG
      
Caboose
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Thu, 24 January 2008 18:01
Chaotic

This one question is probably one of the ones that comes up the most (with probably the "Why no web card in my expansion" thread as well) every so often.

Thus if helped you play the game correctly, it probably will helped others as well. Since there probably was someone out there who thought differently.

Cab
      
toddrew
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Thu, 24 January 2008 19:57
Caboose wrote on Thu, 24 January 2008 10:01

Since there probably was someone out there who thought differently.



Someone like, say, yangtze Wink
      
yangtze
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Fri, 25 January 2008 00:20
Laughing

Well, it's never been an issue in any of my games before, and my original point was simply asking if this had been clarified in the FAQ. Especially appropriate if the question keeps being asked!

The question has now spilled over onto CSW, and several people have posted to say that they interpret the rule as relating to the first combat only. i.e. that the retreating unit, if bold at the time of the cavalry's follow-on combat, may indeed battle-back!
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Fri, 25 January 2008 01:09
yangtze wrote on Thu, 24 January 2008 17:20

Laughing

Well, it's never been an issue in any of my games before, and my original point was simply asking if this had been clarified in the FAQ. Especially appropriate if the question keeps being asked!

The question has now spilled over onto CSW, and several people have posted to say that they interpret the rule as relating to the first combat only. i.e. that the retreating unit, if bold at the time of the cavalry's follow-on combat, may indeed battle-back!

You have got to be kidding me! Rolling Eyes

Alright, since you (and I guess I mean CSW) don't believe me or the rule book, will you believe Eric? Or do I need to write Richard personally? Very Happy

Here's the link:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=94767#msg_num_27

[Updated on: Fri, 25 January 2008 01:10]

      
toddrew
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Fri, 25 January 2008 01:26
CSW?
      
yangtze
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Fri, 25 January 2008 01:34
Consimworld.com
      
darinb
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Tue, 29 January 2008 22:05
So, to summarize:


1) Retreating to a bold position counts as soon as you get there and you can ignore a flag.

2) If you were already bold and still have to retreat (multiple flags) you can't ignore flags by moving into a supported position (since you already ignored one).

3) If you vacate a hex you can't battle-back, regardless of if you become bold.

4) Your bold/not bold and vacated hex? state is determined at the start of a battle and does not carry over from battle to battle--vacating a hex on one battle does not matter in the next battle--you may still battle back, etc as normal.

Is that right?

--Darin

[Edit: I changed "can" to "can't" in #2--sorry for the typo and the confusion!]

[Updated on: Tue, 29 January 2008 22:53]

      
yangtze
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Tue, 29 January 2008 22:08
I think that's right!

edit: changed my response in response to your correction of typo Smile

[Updated on: Tue, 29 January 2008 23:00]

      
*player339499
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Tue, 29 January 2008 22:40
I also think No. 2 is not quite correct. Just a feeling, of course.
      
darinb
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Tue, 29 January 2008 22:51
Yes, I'm still not sure, too...

{ignore the earlier version of this post!]

--Darin

[Updated on: Tue, 29 January 2008 22:52]

      
Caboose
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Wed, 30 January 2008 00:36
darinb wrote on Tue, 29 January 2008 14:05

So, to summarize:

1) Retreating to a bold position counts as soon as you get there and you can ignore a flag.

Not sure what you mean here. Each level of bold allows you to ignore another flag. (i.e Bold 2 - you can ignore up to 2 flags, if you so choose). Creatures MUST always ignore one flag though.

Status of bold is determine at the time of the attack..not for every square you retreat.

darinb wrote on Tue, 29 January 2008 14:05


2) If you were already bold and still have to retreat (multiple flags) you can't ignore flags by moving into a supported position (since you already ignored one).

If you have to retreat, you can only ignore the flags in the POSITION at the time of the retreat. Thus if bold 2, you can ignore 2 flags and thus if 3 flags are rolled, you will need to pay heed to at least 1 flag (or up to 3 if you so choose).

darinb wrote on Tue, 29 January 2008 14:05


3) If you vacate a hex you can't battle-back, regardless of if you become bold.


Not correct! You cannot BATTLE back to the unit that cause you to retreat since you vacated your position. However, if you retreat to a position that gives the unit bold status, then it MAY be able to battleback to ANOTHER attacking unit but NOT the same unit that caused it to retreat.

The best way to remember is the following 2 conditions must exist to battleback :
1) You are bold
2) You did not vacate your hex to the unit that is attacking you.

The latter item is key since if a mounted unit does a pursuit and attacks the unit that retreated, the retreated unit cannot battleback to that unit.

darinb wrote on Tue, 29 January 2008 14:05


4) Your bold/not bold and vacated hex? state is determined at the start of a battle and does not carry over from battle to battle--vacating a hex on one battle does not matter in the next battle--you may still battle back, etc as normal.


Read above item #3 - since that should clarify most.

Cab

[Updated on: Wed, 30 January 2008 01:26]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Wed, 30 January 2008 00:43
darinb wrote on Tue, 29 January 2008 15:05

So, to summarize:


1) Retreating to a bold position counts as soon as you get there and you can ignore a flag.

I am not sure I entirely agree based on how you worded this. You may ignore new flags if you are attacked again in this newly supported position. But you cannot ignore old flags that were a part of the attack that caused you to retreat in the first place. I don't think this was your intent but the wording could be mistaken that way.

Quote:

2) If you were already bold and still have to retreat (multiple flags) you can't ignore flags by moving into a supported position (since you already ignored one).

OK. I think this covers my concern from Step 1. Basically, becoming supported during your retreat does not allow you to ignore additional flags. Your Status at the time of the attack is what determines what flags can and can't be ignored.

Quote:

3) If you vacate a hex you can't battle-back, regardless of if you become bold

4) Your bold/not bold and vacated hex? state is determined at the start of a battle and does not carry over from battle to battle--vacating a hex on one battle does not matter in the next battle--you may still battle back, etc as normal.

Is that right?

--Darin

[Edit: I changed "can" to "can't" in #2--sorry for the typo and the confusion!]

Correct on the last two.
      
darinb
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Wed, 30 January 2008 01:05
ColtsFan76 wrote on Tue, 29 January 2008 15:43

darinb wrote on Tue, 29 January 2008 15:05

So, to summarize:


1) Retreating to a bold position counts as soon as you get there and you can ignore a flag.

I am not sure I entirely agree based on how you worded this. You may ignore new flags if you are attacked again in this newly supported position. But you cannot ignore old flags that were a part of the attack that caused you to retreat in the first place. I don't think this was your intent but the wording could be mistaken that way.



Hey there. I actually meant it the way you don't agree with Smile

I read a quote from Richard somewhere that says you can ignore flags if you fall back on a position that suddenly makes you bold. Couldn't find that one but I did find one of Eric saying the same thing--scroll down to the Dec 7 post at 11:15...

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=71444#msg_71444

The idea was that you take each die in turn, not all at once (which makes sense on the battlefield--you don't jump to the new position, two hexes away but move through each hex in turn).

I think the main confusion has been about what to do when the unit was already bold and had two flags and whether a retreated unit, newly bold, could battle back.

--Darin

[Updated on: Wed, 30 January 2008 01:07]

      
Caboose
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Wed, 30 January 2008 01:49
darinb wrote on Tue, 29 January 2008 17:05

ColtsFan76 wrote on Tue, 29 January 2008 15:43

darinb wrote on Tue, 29 January 2008 15:05

So, to summarize:

1) Retreating to a bold position counts as soon as you get there and you can ignore a flag.

I am not sure I entirely agree based on how you worded this. You may ignore new flags if you are attacked again in this newly supported position. But you cannot ignore old flags that were a part of the attack that caused you to retreat in the first place. I don't think this was your intent but the wording could be mistaken that way.


Hey there. I actually meant it the way you don't agree with Smile

I read a quote from Richard somewhere that says you can ignore flags if you fall back on a position that suddenly makes you bold. Couldn't find that one but I did find one of Eric saying the same thing--scroll down to the Dec 7 post at 11:15...

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=71444#msg_71444

The idea was that you take each die in turn, not all at once (which makes sense on the battlefield--you don't jump to the new position, two hexes away but move through each hex in turn).

I think the main confusion has been about what to do when the unit was already bold and had two flags and whether a retreated unit, newly bold, could battle back.

--Darin


First, the post you refer to in regards to Eric is correct (I'm presuming you meant 12:15! - also see my ps at bottom!) - if a mounted unit makes a unit retreat, the retreated unit cannot battleback to THAT particular unit (the mounted unit that caused the unit to retreat). This is true for any unit that retreats - it cannot battleback to that unit!

And if the retreated unit happens to be in another bold status and ANOTHER unit attacks it and does not cause it to retreat, the bold unit then CAN battleback on this 2nd attacker.

Let's address your confusion :
I think the main confusion has been about what to do when the unit was already bold and had two flags and whether a retreated unit, newly bold, could battle back.

If you follow the following, it will address the issue of if a defending unit can battleback or not :
1) The defending unit is bold
2) The defending unit did NOT vacate a hex to the attacking unit at any time during the attack

Item #2 is critical since that is how mounted units can attack a unit the 2nd time via pursuit and not have to worry about a battleback.

Cab
p.s - You can get the actual message by using the up/down arrows buttons on the far right of the post and thus include it in the link, like this (note msg_num in the link!) :
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=71444#msg_num_13
      
darinb
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Wed, 30 January 2008 02:07
Hey Caboose,

Thanks for the tips on using the forum software--very cool. (btw, my screen says 11:15 for Eric's post--must be taking into account time zone or something?)

In any event my issue is not about battle-back. We agree there.

The issue I'm trying to get at is what to do with a unit that is not bold, is forced to retreat two hexes, but at the first retreat it ends up in a supported position. Does it take another retreat since it had two flags, or does it suddenly ignore one since it is bold.

I think it suddenly ignores one since it is (newly) bold.

At http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=71444#msg_num_13

They are talking about battle-back (again, not my issue) but Eric says, "It will however be able to ignore 1 flag (because of the support it fell back on)"

*the support it fell back on* is the key idea, not the support it enjoyed in its original position.

So, assuming I'm reading this right, it seems that Eric is saying that an unsupported unit can ignore a flag if it moves back to a supported hex.

Eric says it in the other thread that was linked, also--he says (agreeing with another poster's summary) a unit is bold "*immediately* upon meeting the conditions"--i.e. not after the battle is over, etc.

What do you think?

--Darin
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Wed, 30 January 2008 03:39
First off the post was made at 13:15. not 1115 or 1215! (The forums display the time of the post in your local zone.

Second, I think you *might* be misreading what Eric is agreeing to (I'll admit it is a bit confusing and if what you think is right is actually right, then I have been playing wrong).

The post that Eric quoted stated that the unit would be able to ignore flags on the second roll. This was also the source of the entire question: what happens when you are involved in part 2 of the intial attack? can your status change between this two attacks of the same battle?

The answer is yes. While you loose your ability to battle back you may still have the chance to become bold again. But you do not become bold during a retreat. So if you have to retreat 3 hexes due to 3 flags (let's keep it simple that each flag = 1 hex) and after moving 1 space, you now "become supported" because of the presence of 2 units, you do not get to ignore another flag at this time. If after resolving yuor full retreat (or taking losses if the path was blocked), you are still supported, then you once again become bold.

In other words, you cannot become bold while retreating. Once the retreat is resolved, then you check for bold status again in preparation for the next attack.
      
DarkPadawan2
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Wed, 30 January 2008 10:20
I understand it exactly the same way as CF does and agree in all points (just in case sombody wants to know Laughing .

Dark.
      
yangtze
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Wed, 30 January 2008 15:52
This needs to be added to the FAQ.
      
Tsugo
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Wed, 30 January 2008 20:26
My group plays it the way CF explained as well.
      
Caboose
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Re:Rules Question Re. fleeing units becoming bold Fri, 01 February 2008 05:49
Darin

Read CF's post since that is what i was trying to say - one cannot become bold during a retreat and thus ignore other flags. And thus once you indicate the # of flags you will NOT ignore, you will have to retreat that many hexes (be it 1 hex per flag or 2 hexes per flag) and nothing can affect it during the retreat process.

Cab
      
    
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