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JYoder
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Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Thu, 19 July 2007 19:41

Is it just me, or does the Greater Teleport card seem a bit overpowered? We were playing a game, and I swapped a red unit of mine with the red unit in my opponent's landmark that had one of those "shield banner point things" (I can't remember the name) which instantly gave me a point. I then crushed his red unit that I had swapped out because he was now surrounded by my guys, and attacked a weaker unit nearby.

Just like that, I went from 3 points to 6, making it game over. Yet it didn't really feel like a victory, but more like a cheat. Anyone else had this experience?
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Thu, 19 July 2007 20:00
That's the ideal situation with this card. I don't think its overpriced. Especially since it takes 10 (iirc) lore to cast and can be countered by my opponent spending 5 lore with the right counter-card.

But what do I know? I think Forest Frenzy and Hills Rumble are excellent cards as well.
      
dbc-
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Thu, 19 July 2007 22:43
I have seen Greater Portal played many times, but never in the way you describe. But we rarely play scenarios with areas giving victory points.
I can understand how you felt it to be a cheap victory. On the other hand I have rarely seen this card give more than a single point in the turn it has been played. Basically, due to the nature of the scenario, you were assured of one point and had a fair chance of getting a second one. To be able to get that third point was really "fortunate".
Some Lore Cards are really powerful, and I would have liked to see them nerfed. I have removed certain event-cards in other games, to tailor those games more to my needs. The problem with Lore Cards is that they are an integral part of the game and very difficult to simply remove.
On the other hand there is an upper limit to the changes you can do, without making every card nearly identical.

One thing you could do though, is to rule that you have to hold areas giving points, for one turn, before you earn them. This way you can't sneak in a victory by getting the right card at the right time.
      
JYoder
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 20 July 2007 04:05

I guess if that's just the nature of the card, then so be it. I was hoping we had missed a rule about not being able to teleport into a Landmark, but I guess not.

Still, it seems whoever draws it first has a huge advantage. Because if played right, it can easily earn you 2 points if you simply swap out one of your tough units (who is surrounded by your own units) with an enemy unit that is near a very weakened unit. Bam, bam, and his two units are wiped out... but I guess that's the nature of the game in other instances, so maybe it was just this one scenerio where it felt overly powerful. Or maybe I was just lucky.

*shrug*
      
toddrew
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 20 July 2007 08:33
jyoder wrote on Thu, 19 July 2007 19:05


I guess if that's just the nature of the card, then so be it. I was hoping we had missed a rule about not being able to teleport into a Landmark, but I guess not.

Still, it seems whoever draws it first has a huge advantage. Because if played right, it can easily earn you 2 points if you simply swap out one of your tough units (who is surrounded by your own units) with an enemy unit that is near a very weakened unit. Bam, bam, and his two units are wiped out... but I guess that's the nature of the game in other instances, so maybe it was just this one scenerio where it felt overly powerful. Or maybe I was just lucky.

*shrug*



Yup, portal and greater portal are devastating cards. Both worthy of burning up a dispel or foiled! to prevent. I actually prefer portal, as it is cheaper and I'm not limited by having to have units end up in each other's position - the freedom of placing a (usually enemy Twisted Evil ) unit on any unoccupied hex usually adapts better to whatever cc's I may be holding at the time. Don't get me wrong, I'll settle for a greater portal in my hand any game Laughing , but in general I find portal more useful. In a situation like yours, though, GP is perfect for swapping out and claiming a landmark. If it is for a victory point, well, by all means those cards could be outlawed, but using it to take over a pentacle that an enemy has been using to bury you with lore is a very good use of it.

I've said it before, but will say it again - any lore card under the right conditions is game changing, just usually the ones that cost more are more often game changing Smile Keeping a hold of fearless or mass shield is usually good idea if one fears that one of the portal cards are about to be played. Otherwise, yeah, the things one can do to an opponents battle formations usually guarantee that one unit will be destroyed, and many more crippled if not outright taken. I think 5 vp is my record for a portal/mounted charge combonation.

[Updated on: Fri, 20 July 2007 08:34]

      
Zeal
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 20 July 2007 16:09


I almost always take a wizard, so I end up with this card a lot.

A few weeks ago I was holding greater portal when my opponent foolishly lamented, "I haven't had a command card for right wing for 4 turns".

I helped him out and teleported his heavy cav to a place right on the front line and telported my heavy cav to replace them. I nark stomped both his bowmen and a blue infantry before he got another card, and he forgot the rule about moving out of section. Chalk up a win for me. Very Happy


      
JYoder
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 20 July 2007 18:45
Zeal wrote on Fri, 20 July 2007 09:09


he forgot the rule about moving out of section



Just to clarify, is this in reference to creatures only? Or is it about something else I can't remember?

[Updated on: Fri, 20 July 2007 18:46]

      
toddrew
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Sat, 21 July 2007 00:44
jyoder wrote on Fri, 20 July 2007 09:45

Zeal wrote on Fri, 20 July 2007 09:09


he forgot the rule about moving out of section



Just to clarify, is this in reference to creatures only? Or is it about something else I can't remember?


Creatures only - unless Zeal knows something I don't know Very Happy
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Sat, 21 July 2007 01:51
toddrew wrote on Fri, 20 July 2007 17:44

jyoder wrote on Fri, 20 July 2007 09:45

Zeal wrote on Fri, 20 July 2007 09:09


he forgot the rule about moving out of section



Just to clarify, is this in reference to creatures only? Or is it about something else I can't remember?


Creatures only - unless Zeal knows something I don't know Very Happy


I was confused by the statement as well since no creatures were mentioned.
      
sdafilli
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Sat, 21 July 2007 11:28
ColtsFan76 wrote on Sat, 21 July 2007 09:21

toddrew wrote on Fri, 20 July 2007 17:44

jyoder wrote on Fri, 20 July 2007 09:45

Zeal wrote on Fri, 20 July 2007 09:09


he forgot the rule about moving out of section



Just to clarify, is this in reference to creatures only? Or is it about something else I can't remember?


Creatures only - unless Zeal knows something I don't know Very Happy


I was confused by the statement as well since no creatures were mentioned.


Probably meant to use the term to refer to using lore cards without the corresponding lore master (ie with the +3 lore penalty)....
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Sat, 21 July 2007 15:02
I suppose we could endlessly speculate ... or just wait until Zeal comes back....

...
...
...

Did we wait long enough? The post involved not having any Right (or left) section cards for 4 (or 5) turns. So i think it had to do with moving and Command cards. Perhaps the opponent had a creature which he could have ordered out of section. Perhaps he had tactic cards that could have been used. Perhaps Zeal just misspoke!
      
doncorazon
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Sat, 21 July 2007 19:45
I think this is one of the game changing cards that you need to be cautious of. I have had someone use it against me for a quick reversal of fortunes similar to what you described. In my case, the enemy transported in some red cav to mop up my 1/2 unit wounded refugee camp and, meanwhile, butchered the unit that suddenly found itself surrounded and alone in enemy territory. I think the card is almost always good for 2 victory points. Given its cost, I don't think its overpowered as there are other lore cards that are cheaper and can often amount to 1 victory point. I'd say this is about the max power for a lore card I'd like to see.

OTH, I do think Hill/Rivers/Woods are overpowered in many scenarios. Our house rule is to let the caster pick one target hex for each level of cleric when using those spells. This is still powerful as we still let all hexes adjacent to the target hex be affected, but it does weaken the spell in terrain heavy boards while giving credit for having a higher leveil cleric. Again, they are very powerful spells and all you can do is try to be careful (eg save counterspells, avoid the terrain, pray to Crom, etc.)
      
toddrew
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Sun, 22 July 2007 00:18
One of the effects I like most about this card and portal is how they are able to breach the ranged stand still with which many battles between seasoned players begin. Use it to change the morale of a couple units, rush in, do some damage, weather the opponent's turn, then finish off with another big order card.
      
Zeal
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Mon, 23 July 2007 19:14
ColtsFan76 wrote on Sat, 21 July 2007 07:02

I suppose we could endlessly speculate ... or just wait until Zeal comes back....

...
...
...

Did we wait long enough? The post involved not having any Right (or left) section cards for 4 (or 5) turns. So i think it had to do with moving and Command cards. Perhaps the opponent had a creature which he could have ordered out of section. Perhaps he had tactic cards that could have been used. Perhaps Zeal just misspoke!


Sorry for the suspense! I spent my days off cleaning my fornlorn garage and tiling a bathroom floor. Thank God I'm back at work where I can get a moment's rest.

Well, not only did I misspeak, I have apparently been playing the game wrong in one IMPORTANT aspect. Somewhere during my playing, it became common to move one unit out of section by discarding a command card.

Without the rules in front of me to see how I might have made this error, I'm not sure where this crept into my play, but had been doing that awhile. I'm sure I borrowed the concept from one of the many other boardgames I have played.

Mea Culpa!

Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

Important saftey tip here kids; listen to Coltsfan or DarkPadawan on rules, not me. I'll stick to attempted wittiness.
      
DrSpunj
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Mon, 23 July 2007 20:57
Zeal wrote on Mon, 23 July 2007 12:14

Without the rules in front of me to see how I might have made this error, I'm not sure where this crept into my play, but had been doing that awhile. I'm sure I borrowed the concept from one of the many other boardgames I have played.


Was it the small sentence at the bottom of many of the command cards that says "If you have no <whatever> units, you may order one unit of your choice." where <whatever> is relevant to the card?

For instance, the Green Army card says order a number of green units equal to your command. At the bottom IIRC it says "If you have no green units...."

For another, the Mounted Charge card IIRC says the same thing about having no mounted units.

I have to admit I've not had occasion to use any of the command cards yet in this fashion, but I keep expecting it to come up at some point.

Hope that helps your brain, Zeal! Razz
      
Caboose
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Tue, 24 July 2007 00:35
I believe almost all of the tactical CC cards have that line ("If you have no <whatever> units, you may order one unit of your choice.")

The only ones I can think of that DOES NOT have that line is the Counter Attack (obviously) , Leadership (since you are ordering ONE unit) and the Battlelore cards (roll dice up to CC threshold to determine # of units ordered).

Cab

[Updated on: Tue, 24 July 2007 00:35]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Tue, 24 July 2007 00:44
Zeal wrote on Mon, 23 July 2007 12:14

Without the rules in front of me to see how I might have made this error, I'm not sure where this crept into my play, but had been doing that awhile. I'm sure I borrowed the concept from one of the many other boardgames I have played.

It is possible that you picked it up by other examples within this game. I would venture 3 guesses:

1) The aforementioned Tactic cards that allow you to move any one unit of your choice IF you have no units that meet the conditions otherwise printed on the card.

2) The ability to move Creatures with a different section card for an additional 3 Lore tokens.

3) You may discard a card, forfeit your turn, and draw a new card. But of course, no units are ordered under this option.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 July 2007 00:45]

      
*player324048
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Thu, 31 January 2008 21:42
toddrew wrote on Fri, 20 July 2007 08:33

I've said it before, but will say it again - any lore card under the right conditions is game changing, just usually the ones that cost more are more often game changing Smile Keeping a hold of fearless or mass shield is usually good idea if one fears that one of the portal cards are about to be played. Otherwise, yeah, the things one can do to an opponents battle formations usually guarantee that one unit will be destroyed, and many more crippled if not outright taken. I think 5 vp is my record for a portal/mounted charge combonation.



Can you use a 'hold' card to cancel a 'portal' card? On the 'hold' card: "Play in reaction to your opponent's movement".
Is playing a 'portal' card a movement? In other words, can we only use a 'hold' card in the movement phase of the opponent?

Thanks
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Thu, 31 January 2008 22:34
No. A "hold" card like Magic Web is in reaction to the movement. Greater Portal is an exchange in position and no movement occurs. In fact, movement is not allowed whatsoever. The only thing that would void Greater Portal is a reaction card that prevents a Lore card from being played.
      
toddrew
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Thu, 31 January 2008 22:42
Hold can be used to prevent a portaled unit from attacking, but would not alter it being portaled in the first place, as ColtsFan pointed out.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Thu, 31 January 2008 23:21
toddrew wrote on Thu, 31 January 2008 15:42

Hold can be used to prevent a portaled unit from attacking, but would not alter it being portaled in the first place, as ColtsFan pointed out.

This is not correct Todd. Magic Web can only target a unit that moves or would potential move. A unit switched with Greater Portal is not a moved unit and noit affected by Magic Web. From the COmpendium....

Quote:

Can you play Magic Web in reaction to a Portal or Greater Portal? (FAQ entry)
Question: Can you play Magic Web in reaction to a unit moved by Portal or Greater Portal? If so, are they returned to their starting hex, or do they simply stay in their new hex unable to battle?

Answer: No, because the Portal or Greater Portal occur during the Command phase of a player's turn. The Magic Web can only be played during the Movement phase, too late to counter any Portal/Greater Portal.

      
toddrew
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 01 February 2008 03:45
From a little further down in the Compendium page for Magic Web:

Quote:


4. toddrew says
2007-05-15 08:58:43
Re: targeting an ordered unit (Comment / Question)
Question: In light of the answer to "targeting an ordered unit", would a unit ordered by Portal or Greater Portal be allowed to be webbed, and although it would remain at it's current position, not be able to attack?

Answer: No. As answered above, a Web can only be cast during the Movement phase. Since Portal/Greater Portal is cast prior to that phase, the web would arrive to late to prevent the unit from being teleported.
This being said, if you cast web on a unit that has already been teleported earlier in the turn, you will be able to prevent it from attacking indeed.


I asked that question because it didn't make sense to me that Magic Web could apply to a unit that was ordered and not moved, yet wouldn't apply to a unit that was portaled and then, although unable to move, able to attack. I thought that perhaps the first answer to the was a bit hasty, responding to the inability of Magic Web/Hold to prevent the "movement" of the unit(s) in question, but not properly addressing the Web/Hold's ability to prevent an attack.

The Compendium is a bit weird in that it seems early mis-statements are kept for posterity, and just corrected by later posts/entries.

EDIT: to indicate that it is just my feeling that early mistakes are kept for posteriety (that I freudian slipped as "prosperity" Laughing )

[Updated on: Fri, 01 February 2008 05:53]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 01 February 2008 04:36
There should be no comments for posterity's sake. If it is wrong, it needs to be corrected.
      
toddrew
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 01 February 2008 05:51
My feelings as well - not sure if this is an oversight, or just the history was meant to be kept, even if confusing (which it is - by keeping the former, I'm not 100% that the latter is any more correct than what was first put forth Confused )
      
JYoder
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 01 February 2008 19:44
I agree with toddrew. It appears to me the question was answered too quickly, before the question was fully understood. Just to break it down, here's the question...
Quote:

Question: In light of the answer to "targeting an ordered unit", would a unit ordered by Portal or Greater Portal be allowed to be webbed, and although it would remain at it's current position, not be able to attack?


The question is about the attack, yet the answer of "No" is given in reference to preventing the unit from being teleported, which is not a part of the question (italics are mine)...
Quote:

Answer: No. As answered above, a Web can only be cast during the Movement phase. Since Portal/Greater Portal is cast prior to that phase, the web would arrive to late to prevent the unit from being teleported.


Because then the answer goes on to say the following, which is what the original question is really asking about...
Quote:

This being said, if you cast web on a unit that has already been teleported earlier in the turn, you will be able to prevent it from attacking indeed.


Therefore, it would seem that the correct answer to the question above should be "Yes," but maybe with a bit more explanation, like this...

Yes. During the Movement phase, Web can be cast on the unit, but only to prevent it from attacking. As a reminder, since Portal/Greater Portal is cast prior to that phase, the web arrives too late to prevent the unit from being teleported.

Otherwise, if you don't answer it that way, it is completely contrary with this question and answer that came earlier...
Quote:

Question: Can I target a unit that doesn't move but is ordered with Magic Web? Just so I can use the last part of the card "Though still ordered,it may not move or BATTLE THIS ENTIRE TURN" Just so I can stop a unit from attacking.

Answer: Yes, you may.


Does anyone agree?

      
toddrew
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 01 February 2008 20:06
jyoder wrote on Fri, 01 February 2008 11:44

Does anyone agree?




Yes Smile
      
Caboose
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 01 February 2008 20:08
toddrew wrote on Fri, 01 February 2008 12:06

jyoder wrote on Fri, 01 February 2008 11:44

Does anyone agree?




Yes Smile



And if memory serves me correctly, there is an Q&A in the compendium to that effect about using Web on a unit that doesn't move but is ordered.

Cab
Edit -> Yep - I see that question #3 does answer that under the "magic web" section of the compedium

[Updated on: Sat, 02 February 2008 01:14]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 01 February 2008 20:53
toddrew wrote on Fri, 01 February 2008 13:06

jyoder wrote on Fri, 01 February 2008 11:44

Does anyone agree?




Yes Smile


I owuld have to agree as well. I just wish they would delete/modify the previous answer.
      
JYoder
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 01 February 2008 22:07

How and/or who updates those card FAQs? Can an email be sent to someone to update the entire thing?

[Updated on: Fri, 01 February 2008 22:08]

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Fri, 01 February 2008 22:59
DOW can eidt/update them. You can post a question or comment but not fix something that is already posted.
      
Caboose
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Sat, 02 February 2008 01:10
And hopefully there is someone that can/will update them in a timely manner (likewise with the M44 summary cards as well).

Ideally would be instanteous, but that is an ideal world and we know we don't live in that (otherwise we would have all of our BL expansions, etc <G>). I think even if they were updated 1 or 2 times a month would be acceptable.

Sure would hate to have these online resources "go to waste" by not having information on the topic/item updated on a regular basis. I know some on the BL side haven't been answered in a while, but that could be just plain oversight, etc. And since there was some time invested to get them online, might as well make good use of them. Sure some of them (i.e. M44 basic command sections cards come to mine) might never have a question about them since the intent is obvious. But the topic/cards that do generate questions are the ones I'm more concerned with than anything. Since there might be an answer (like this thread) that might have gotten slipped in and then people might get the wrong impression.

Hopefully there might be a way to "flag" an errant answer or oops in the compendium - and thus the reply person's reply/comment won't show up but at least let the powers to be know there might be something wrong.

Cab
      
Caboose
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Re:Greater Teleport (Overpowered?) Sat, 02 February 2008 01:17
ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 01 February 2008 12:53

toddrew wrote on Fri, 01 February 2008 13:06

jyoder wrote on Fri, 01 February 2008 11:44

Does anyone agree?




Yes Smile


I owuld have to agree as well. I just wish they would delete/modify the previous answer.


Or at least parse/seperate the 2 questions - namely question #1 and Todd's # 4. Since I know what Todd is trying to say in #4, but it seems the person who answered seemed to take the position that there was no question #1 there. And thus basically does say "Yes" if one reads the WHOLE answer. Sad

Cab
      
    
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