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Fuzzawakka
Junior Member

Posts: 2
Registered:
March 2008
Question about Traitor Sun, 09 March 2008 07:19
So we just spent ALL day playing this game with a few long brakes in between. We ended up playing it 5 times. It was everyones first time playing and we played with the traitor right away. That was a mistake Smile It seems to me that the traitor is overpowered AFTER he is revealed. Can you please explain to me why you WOULDNT want to be found out. Because once you are found out you can take a card AND add a siege equipment or black card where as before you are still somewhat helping. So if you were the trader whats the point of not being blatently obvious so someone reveals you? We are also not very good and got wasted everytime we played with the traitor. Even without it we lost 2/3 games. Sad thing to is we had 6 players.
      
travisjhall
Senior Member

Posts: 350
Registered:
November 2004
Re:Question about Traitor Mon, 10 March 2008 00:34
Just because you know who the traitor is, does not mean you have to reveal him. I advise not accusing the traitor until late in the game, unless he gives you some good reason to accuse him. That minimises the impact of his taunting. An accusation is a great way to add that twelfth sword to the Round Table, to end the game in loyal victory.

Whether the traitor wants to be revealed depends largely on how the swords fall. If a couple of black swords end up on the Round Table early, the traitor may well be best off remaining hidden, so that his two-sword flip at the end results in a traitor win. Remember, you only have to get four black swords on the round table to win that way - three if you manage to successfully accuse just before the end of the game without giving anyone else a chance to accuse back.

With good players, I think the odds of accumulating four black swords are rather low, so I'm not terribly happy with the balance here (because it does you absolutely no good to remain hidden for half the game and then switch tactics - whatever you decide, you are best off sticking to one tactic right from the start). However, there are times when concealed traitor is a good strategy.

But if you are losing 2/3 games without a traitor, this is more of a problem than your issue with traitors favouring open-traitor play. Six players with no traitor should be an easy win for a group employing half-decent strategies. You might want to look around a bit for more specific strategy tips, but a couple of basic ones are...

Get as many knights as possible cooperating on group quests. You are far better off with four knights on Excalibur than two knights on Excalibur and two on the Grail. (Two and two out of six is slightly better than a holding pattern. You will be quite likely to run out of cards before winning either.)

The most valuable item on the table is Lancelot's Armor. Get it. If you have the cards for it, get it for yourself, not for any other knight. If you are loyal, then the only knight you are sure is loyal at the start of the game is you. If you are the traitor, the Armor allows you to play an extremely effective concealed traitor, and stays with you even if you are revealed.

(These combined lead me to advise that sending one knight to fight Lancelot and everybody else to either the Grail quest or the Excalibur quest, depending on available cards, is a very strong opening.)

Don't waste resources fighting siege engines. Keep the numbers low by not putting them out in the first place. Each siege engine placed effective gains one action. Each siege engine destroyed costs one for the attack, plus about half for each card you played. So placing and then destroying a siege engine loses an action or so in total. Don't do it. Place siege engines sparingly, but remember that if you finish the game with no siege engines in play, you've lost the opportunity for about eight extra actions (by placing siege engines and not fighting them), and it is better to fight a few siege engines than get overrun by them if the game keep dropping them on you. Aim for balance.
      
Fuzzawakka
Junior Member

Posts: 2
Registered:
March 2008
Re:Question about Traitor Mon, 10 March 2008 05:18
Thanks Travisjhall that is some great advice! Would you recommend going for the sword or the grail first if you had about cards almost splitting with grail and non grail cards?

So from what I understand if you are the traitor you should just be as obvious as possible about being the traitor so they reveal you so you can do even more damage. Cause it seems like there is no point hiding yourself just to flip over two black swords at the end. A revealed traitor hurts so bad! Confused So the best tactic if you are traitor is almost just say you are the traitor in the begining (say through your obvious actions) so you can be revieled? Also I have yet to figure out what usefulnes that knight that gains one extra health for completing a quest is. Should he concentrate on the easy quests so he can finish them quickly?

Thanks for all the input its appreciated!
      
travisjhall
Senior Member

Posts: 350
Registered:
November 2004
Re:Question about Traitor Tue, 11 March 2008 22:56
Fuzzawakka wrote on Mon, 10 March 2008 14:18

Thanks Travisjhall that is some great advice! Would you recommend going for the sword or the grail first if you had about cards almost splitting with grail and non grail cards?

Six players means 30 cards between you (plus Merlins), so that's 15 Grail cards. That'd be a "Hell yes!" for the Grail. Four knights travelling there with 10 Grail cards should easily complete the Grail quest early. The Grail is worth more swords, is a more powerful artifact and is harder to save once it gets going.

Quote:

So from what I understand if you are the traitor you should just be as obvious as possible about being the traitor so they reveal you so you can do even more damage.

You want to read my post again. With good players, you usually won't do any significant amount of extra damage this way, because they will resist the urge to accuse you. If you are going to be obvious, you do it so that you are placing siege engines right from the start.

Quote:

Cause it seems like there is no point hiding yourself just to flip over two black swords at the end.

There's no point if the group is accumulating a lot of white swords at the expense of allowing Camelot to come under heavy siege. There's every point if the knights are keeping the siege well controlled at the expense of accumulating only eight white swords. A two sword flip is a huge swing. When it matters, it matters a lot. When it doesn't, it doesn't matter at all. While I don't like how often it doesn't matter with a good group, it is definitely a major concern.

Quote:

A revealed traitor hurts so bad! Confused

No, he doesn't. He takes away one card, maybe two, because you've waited until the last turn or two to accuse him.

Quote:

Also I have yet to figure out what usefulnes that knight that gains one extra health for completing a quest is. Should he concentrate on the easy quests so he can finish them quickly?

It's a crap power, very nearly strictly worse than Tristan's power in all situations. There are just a couple of rare, marginal cases where it is better. If that's what you've got, though, the way to make use of it is to join group quests just as they are finishing. Remember to balance this concern with the need to be effective in whatever else you are trying to do.
      
rdhight
Junior Member

Posts: 27
Registered:
October 2007
Re:Question about Traitor Wed, 12 March 2008 03:10
To answer your original question: when I'm the traitor, I always want to work by stealth. Stealth allows me to hoard or throw away valuable white cards, not random ones. It gives me access to Lancelot's Armor and maybe even the chance to seize and waste the other relics. It gives me influence over the other knights-- tricking them with bad advice about which quests to pursue, maybe drinking from the grail or getting other healing and card-drawing resources used for my benefit. It allows me to flip a sword with my accusation. If maintained until the end of the game, stealth allows me to flip two more swords.

Part of it, of course, is personal preference. I want to win as the traitor, but I don't want to declare myself and then grind my way to victory in a battle of attrition. I want a sudden "hard kill" that comes out of nowhere. I want to place the seventh black sword on the table myself, play the disloyal Clarivoyance or Heroism that makes evil a lock to win, toss on a 12th catapult that no one saw coming, or get that last two-sword flip. Stealth is essential for me to play the traitor the way I want.

One of the nice things about this game is that it's kind of hard to reduce things to solved problems. My brother-in-law moans and groans over every Despair card and loves trying to get the Grail. My dad is another one who's known for using Merlins against Despair cards for no particular reason. I prefer to play tug-of-war with the Grail and not even try to finish it unless the cards just absolutely scream "big Grail rush." I don't know who's right.

My brother-in-law is scared of the revealed traitor and never accuses even if he knows for sure who it is. I'm really into finding the traitor as soon as possible so that he can't hoard white cards or make his own accusation. To me, successfully exposing the traitor is the greatest accomplishment a loyal knight can have and paves the way to victory. But again, neither of us can prove our way is right.

Travisjhall is giving you great advice, and there's more great advice elsewhere on this board from very strong players who know a lot more about the game than I do, but don't be afraid to establish your own line of reasoning.
      
atefec
Senior Member

Posts: 318
Registered:
August 2005
Re:Question about Traitor Wed, 12 March 2008 07:04
@ rdhight: That's exactly the way we use to play the role of the traitor! Hiding as long as possible in order to hoard or to discard good white cards and playing ineffectively. Primary objective is to stay unrevealed and to flip two white swords at the end.

The knights have to collect at least nine white swords to claim a sure victory against an unrevealed traitor. 8 vs 4 leads to a draw with two white swords flipped at the end and the tie is a loss for the knights. Nine white swords are not that easy if the traitor manages to thwart the knights without attracting attention Twisted Evil
      
T-Boy67
Junior Member
Cadet

Posts: 3
Registered:
January 2007
Re:Question about Traitor Mon, 17 March 2008 19:55
A Fate card is very handy for the Traitor to do a reveal of himself. It's really good when the loyal knights are on thier way towards victory, but that 2 card discard penalty makes it suddenly really difficult to complete many more quests.

I traitored my way to victory that way last week on my birthday which was very sweet.
      
    
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