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Noir_Fleuri
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December 2007
  High level Warrior gets you nowhere Fri, 21 March 2008 20:57
In my opinion, level three warrior in War Council is a liability. Warrior has only two lore cards that relate to warriors level. This is quite annoying, since there's a good chance, that those cards never come up during the game. When compared to other council members, rogue with 3, wizard with 4 and cleric with 6 cards relative to their respective level, a warrior on level two or three is practically useless. Of course, when playing with Landmarks, warrior's training camp may look handy, but it can only be used once. When compared to Magic Pentacle or Rogue's Den, which offer advantages throughout the game, training camp loses it's purpose in the long run.
I really hope, that there will be more lore cards in the future expansions to fix the balance between lore masters.
Enough said, what do you think?
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Fri, 21 March 2008 21:02
I think we will see more Lore cards int he future that will correct this perceived shortcoming.
      
toddrew
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Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Fri, 21 March 2008 23:37
Have to be careful when playing Berserk at level 3, as many cards can counter it, but timely played, that card will very likely get one, and probably when played with any sort of cavalry unit two banners. Cry Havoc has less lore cards that can counter its effectiveness (especially if played with Mounted Charge, BattleLore, Advance, Forward,...), and if allowed to go off will end games. I think these are the two most powerful level dependent cards (for their respective costs). Many players do take a level 1 Warrior, so taking a level 3 Warrior under such circumstances guarantees that one of the cards is in there, and in all likelihood both will be present.

The main reason why I pick a level 3 lore master at all is to have three lore cards and three lore tokens to start a game. Taking a level 3 Warrior and a level 1 Rogue is a great war council for controlling the action on the board. Having a hand of four such cards to choose from really opens up the possibilities that the command cards have to offer. Choosing this same council with a level 3 rogue gives one a little more control with the level dependent cards that the rogue has, but a level 3 Warrior adds a "jackpot" element to that council that if it hits, hard to lose.

Last game I played with the above council, I ended up with both Berserk and Cry Havoc. Needless to say I only used one of them Twisted Evil

O, and that training camp can have a big impact too. Blue dwarven crossbow units are nothing to sneeze at Wink

Not to mention King's Allies in the CtA games - wonderful card at level 3.

All that said, I am looking forward to additions to the lore decks.

[Updated on: Sat, 22 March 2008 15:13]

      
Noir_Fleuri
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December 2007
Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Sat, 22 March 2008 09:32
Good points indeed, I guess I should try out that composition you mentioned.
I was wondering a little about landmarks. The rules state, that landmarks are used, if scenario notes state so. But I've only seen one scenario so far (That's #10 Assaulting the Toureilles). So, do landmark rules take effect by default or is there really only one scenario that includes them?
      
toddrew
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Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Sat, 22 March 2008 15:07
Noir_Fleuri wrote on Sat, 22 March 2008 02:32

So, do landmark rules take effect by default or is there really only one scenario that includes them?


Yeah, the adventures are a bit inconsistent - all the ones in the base game say either one way or the other (I believe - haven't looked at the notes in awhile Smile ), but I think after that, unless it says no landmark rules, they are in play. Either way, it's a good idea to make sure both players understand whether landmarks are in play before the game begins.

EDIT: actually, let me amend that, as for adventures with set war councils, I'm not sure if landmarks are in play if the properly leveled lore master exist. I usually defer to the second player's wishes Wink

[Updated on: Sat, 22 March 2008 15:09]

      
Caboose
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Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Mon, 24 March 2008 13:51
toddrew wrote on Fri, 21 March 2008 16:37


O, and that training camp can have a big impact too. Blue dwarven crossbow units are nothing to sneeze at Wink

Not to mention King's Allies in the CtA games - wonderful card at level 3.



Correct me if I missed some prior reference but I thought the Training Camp could ONLY upgrade units that had a valid upgrade banner available to them - CORRECT? If so, I don't recall there being a blue crossbow banner available and thus how can that be done if there is no banner for it.

I do recall somewhere (in one of the many replies) that creatures couldn't use the camp to upgrade.

Cab
      
Noir_Fleuri
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Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Tue, 25 March 2008 18:03
I was wondering about this too.
Any clarifications?
      
DarkPadawan2
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Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Tue, 25 March 2008 18:56
Cab is right on this one. Training Camp allows to upgrade "troops".
Creatures are units, but not troops, they are neither infantry nor cavalry.

I remembered a very old thread on this topic and found it here:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/index.php?t=msg&th=8959& rid=286818&S=6fd3b45fc7b12910e0c2c69dac337ae5&start= 0#msg_70081

Eric says the same thing as Cab. The official way is: if there are no banners for an upgrade, you can't do it.

On the other hand, we got a lot of new weapons since that time. It would be interesting to hear DOW's rulings on upgrades like e.g.:
Short Bow to Long Bow.
Crossbow to Arbalestier

or others that I can't think of at the moment.

And finally there is always the way to House Rule upgrades as you see fit.

Dark.
      
Caboose
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Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Thu, 27 March 2008 07:19
DarkPadawan wrote on Tue, 25 March 2008 11:56

Cab is right on this one. Training Camp allows to upgrade "troops".
Creatures are units, but not troops, they are neither infantry nor cavalry.

I remembered a very old thread on this topic and found it here:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/index.php?t=msg&th=8959& rid=286818&S=6fd3b45fc7b12910e0c2c69dac337ae5&start= 0#msg_70081

Eric says the same thing as Cab. The official way is: if there are no banners for an upgrade, you can't do it.

On the other hand, we got a lot of new weapons since that time. It would be interesting to hear DOW's rulings on upgrades like e.g.:
Short Bow to Long Bow.
Crossbow to Arbalestier

or others that I can't think of at the moment.

And finally there is always the way to House Rule upgrades as you see fit.

Dark.


Based on the wording of the Training Camp, I would be very surprised if DoW would allow "cross training" from one item to another. Of course, if the text of the Training Camp did change, then it could happen of course as well Smile

For those w/o a rulebook handy, here is the text of it's special powers :
Quote:


During your turn, you may order any Troop's unit already in your camp to undergo training. Change the banner of the unit's Banner Bearer to the next level up (i.e. green becomes blue, and blue becomes red). The ordered unit thus upgraded cannot move or battle this turn. The Training Camp hex is then removed from the board.


Based on that text, it would seem cross training would not be possible. Even with all those new and fancy ways of shooting at others.

Of course, maybe there might be a way to cross train by adding a chart on how long it would cost to do that. But I would think that would make the training camp even worth "less" since battles usually do not go on forever (i.e. usually end in like 10-20 turn timeframe - give or take).

Of course, as one might note, there is no upgrade path for a red unit on a training camp - maybe those units could crossgrade maybe?!? (although doubtful). Also from a personal perspective, I don't like the fact that the "camp" disappears - i.e. vs having something like a city/town take it's place instead.

Cab
      
felkor
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Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Fri, 28 March 2008 17:42
And don't forget that those of us with Goblin Marauders have blue reflex bow banners just waiting to get used! Smile I think that could be a great use for the camp.
      
FelixPhantasm
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January 2008
Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Fri, 28 March 2008 20:15
felkor wrote on Fri, 28 March 2008 12:42

And don't forget that those of us with Goblin Marauders have blue reflex bow banners just waiting to get used! Smile I think that could be a great use for the camp.

I like that! I *really* like that!
      
felkor
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Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Fri, 28 March 2008 20:45
From the way the rules are explained, both in the book and by Eric, it sounds like other previously unseen units would be legal, like red cattle riders or hyena riders, or blue lizard riders.
      
tkostek
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December 2006
Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Wed, 09 April 2008 05:48
To answer the original poster, I tend to agree.

While I like the Lore system, I think the implementation could have been improved quite a bit. The weaker lvl 3 Warrior is just one of the flaws in the system.

I don't find the roles to be well-differentiated. A cleric deals out damage, and does healing, and also has a movement power (commune w/ nature). Several cards are repeated for different classes with *identical* effects. Building the lore deck is a chore, and shuffling it well is almost impossible.

Perhaps surprisingly, I'm not much bothered by the more common complaint that the power of the different cards is uneven.

I designed an alternate lore system to address my complaints, and I posted it on BGG. I'll try to remember to post a link tomorrow. It involved ditching the Lore decks and having fixed powers for the Lore masters. I haven't had a chance to actually try it out yet...
      
Sam Gamgee
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Re:High level Warrior gets you nowhere Fri, 11 April 2008 03:15
I have to agree - Lvl 3 Warrior and Rogue are just not that useful. Lvl 3 Mage is the best, followed by the Lvl 3 cleric.

I like the warrior boosts to combat ability, and the high cost warrior cards rock, but the Mage's landmark ability (extra lore), teleport and destructive spells are too good to pass up.

My current favourite council is Lvl 2 Commander, Lvl 3 Mage & Lvl 1 Warrior.
      
    
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