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Winter Storm
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Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 14:45
I'm very disappointed that now "Behind enemy lines" card has
been changed.

I don't like that now you can't ignore terrain restriction (read th e old faq: they say that the purpose was to ignore terrain restrictions of all kinds.

Moreover two things left me very disappointed.


1) That I discovered the change into the forum, and that there are no news of this change in the mainpage of Memoir

2) Furthermore I wished to buy at least a new deck of command card s because mine is exhausted. I'm unhappy that I have to use the new card and can't buy the deck with the old version.

I also cannot use the old card in the new deck because they have a different colour (like the air sortie card in the air pack with the cards of the base game.)

In addition the fact that nobody told me in the store or in other places of the website that the new deck has a different Behind enemy lines make me angry Mad .

      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 15:08
The change happened a long time ago. My two copies of the game had the revised card - which cause me some confusion in the early days.

If you don't like the new wording, feel free to use however you want.

But the purpose of the card is to provide a "surprise" pocket of resistance somewhere unexpected on the board. It isn't meant to literally be one unit moving that far. So it makes sense that terrain restrictions are not applied.
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 15:19
Sorry, but I have downloaded the FAQ last year the last time and Richard Borg himself said that the purpose of the card was to ignore any kind of terrain restrictions.

Try to understand that though I own the game since 2006 I'm new on the forum and In the near future I will be too busy to spend time on it.

I'm angry that such a change (that can change the result of whole games) is difficult to be found unless I spend all my time checking the FAQs and the forum.

      
Clexton27
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 15:20
So the way I read it is:
Move your infantry unit up to 3 hexes ignoring ALL terrain restrictions [except impassable terrain], battle(if you desire with battle restrictions), take ground (if you can and desire to do so)and then move up to an additional 3 hexes.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 15:31
stevens wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 06:20

So the way I read it is:
Move your infantry unit up to 3 hexes ignoring ALL terrain restrictions [except impassable terrain],
or 4 hexes if you start on, stay on, and end on a road
Quote:

battle(if you desire with battle restrictions), take ground (if you can and desire to do so)and then move up to an additional 3 hexes.
or 4 hexes if you start, stay and end on a road.

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 15:42
Winter Storm wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 06:19

Sorry, but I have downloaded the FAQ last year the last time and Richard Borg himself said that the purpose of the card was to ignore any kind of terrain restrictions.

Try to understand that though I own the game since 2006 I'm new on the forum and In the near future I will be too busy to spend time on it.

I'm angry that such a change (that can change the result of whole games) is difficult to be found unless I spend all my time checking the FAQs and the forum.


I can see your frustration with this situation and your fear that other rules may change and you won't know about it for a while because you don't have time to check the forum all the time.

Here's the thing...even if you play BEL the original way, you aren't going to ruin the game. If another rule changes and you don't know about it, you won't even know the difference. If you're playing Vassal, your opponent might know the rule change, in which case you'll learn about it!

Basically, I would say don't worry about missing a change in the rules here and there. As long as you're having fun and enjoying your game, it's not going to matter if you're playing with the most recent little changes.
      
sam1812
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 15:43
I don't think 4 hexes on a road would be correct.

Going across beaches, you're not limited to 2 hexes. And you're free to go across multiple town or forest hexes.
      
Brummbar
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 16:02
sam1812 wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 06:43

I don't think 4 hexes on a road would be correct.

Going across beaches, you're not limited to 2 hexes. And you're free to go across multiple town or forest hexes.


There was a bit of a debate on this a little while ago, not sure what came of it. But I would agree with Sam here, I don't think the BEL gets the benefit of the road bonus.

BEL should be seen as a 3 hex move (and then another 3 hexes of course). The only restriction being impassable terrain.

I think 'hex' is really the operable term when it comes to BEL.
      
gheintze
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 16:44
Can someone post the two different wordings of the BEL cards?

I'm just curious to see the difference. I thought that Richard cleared this up in the FAQ years ago.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 17:52
Old:
http://images.boardgamegeek.com/images/pic381283.jpg

New:
http://images.boardgamegeek.com/images/pic315101_md.jpg
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 19:01
Sorry people... I've confused the old card for the new one and vice versa.... Sad . However I'm a bit frustrated by the confusion caused by some rules...

for instance I discover that

1) In close assault (one of the weakest card of the game except when you draw it in a melee) i thought that only unit that were adjacent at the beginning of the turn and are still adjacent before rolling the dice can battle. But I think that during armor overrunning the tanks get an additional die in close combat (and thus can fight again only if again in close combat with still an additional dice ) but in the forun I've read that this is not the right interpretation.

2) In the italian translation it is written that a unit can move in jungles must stop but may still battle...forgetting to say that may still battle when starting from adjacent hexes.

3) I've read that also that airplanes in the ground could be hit not only but grenades, but with stars with the air power... and with flags when cannot be ignored (airplanes and barrage).
For instance I played a barrage playing carentan causeway with the allies not scoring grenades but flags.... so I thought that the planes (worth a medal) where not hit.

I'm thinking that I've played few scenarios of memoir'44 according to all rules yet!

I'm also disappointed by the question of the stars against snipers... I read in the manual that the snipers could hit by grenade only...Before reading the FAQ I thought that this sentence can be interpretated in two ways....

1) Grenade only means that snipers couldn't be hit by infantry simbol (it's threated as infantry for the purpose of being ordered)

2) However I supposed that the creators of the game knew as written in the base game manual that "sometimes the stars scores hits". So if they write "they are hit by grenade only) I can suppose that the new sentence overrule the old rule.

If few lines above they say that the snipers can hit infantries and artillery with the stars it's supposed that saying after that can only be hit by grenade means that is an exception to the rule above.

It's like the old story of the chinese merchant that sold a spear that could broke every shield and a shield that couldn't be broken by spears....

Try to understand that I don't play this game solo, but with 5-6 friends of mine and the game lose a lot of his fun and beauty when we ( every time more frequently ) found conflicts against the rules. I would have to explain before playing or during playing (and this is a worst situation) the right interpretation.

The best thing would be to have an updated version of the faq and print a copy for each friend of mine.

It's a shame that the faq were not already updated by DOW

I want to thank very much ColtsFan76 becuase of his idea.


      
Winter Storm
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 19:29
I tought that the new card was the new one because in the card compendium the card shown is the old one...so the card compendium has to be updated too.

I thought that in the card compendium the BEL card was the new one (the card compenidum was released after the air pack and so long after the release of the new card.

Thus I cannot trust the card compendium thus...

I repeat that I need new faqs to print them and have not to use the computer to search answers in the forum during playtime.
      
stringbend
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 21:01
Do the stand-alone card decks that are for sale include the newer BEL cards as well as any other updates?

I just realized that both core versions of the game I bought have the old ones. Shoot!
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 21:06
Winter Storm wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 12:01

The best thing would be to have an updated version of the faq and print a copy for each friend of mine.

It's a shame that the faq were not already updated by DOW

I want to thank very much ColtsFan76 becuase of his idea.

I think an FAQ is a good idea. However, I was told some months after I started gathering items to put it on the back burner because DOW wanted to go a different route. It appears that their compendium (similar to BattleLore) is the route they want to take.

This idea has merit because it is dynamic but it unrotunately can't be printed out and take to a game night. As for my part in the FAQ, I think it is done. DOW and I have had a falling out. I may try to see if we can reconcile but other things have taken a higher priority of late.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 21:07
stringbend wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 14:01

Do the stand-alone card decks that are for sale include the newer BEL cards as well as any other updates?

I just realized that both core versions of the game I bought have the old ones. Shoot!

Yes, they should. They have been in the base game for at least the past 2 or 3 years.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 21:29
Winter Storm wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 10:01


1) In close assault (one of the weakest card of the game except when you draw it in a melee) i thought that only unit that were adjacent at the beginning of the turn and are still adjacent before rolling the dice can battle. But I think that during armor overrunning the tanks get an additional die in close combat (and thus can fight again only if again in close combat with still an additional dice ) but in the forun I've read that this is not the right interpretation.


As long as the tank is still adjacent to a unit after Armor Overrun, my understanding is that they still enjoy the extra die.

Quote:

2) In the italian translation it is written that a unit can move in jungles must stop but may still battle...forgetting to say that may still battle when starting from adjacent hexes.

Check the card that you have for this terrain. I think it's card Terrain 57.

Quote:

3) I've read that also that airplanes in the ground could be hit not only but grenades, but with stars with the air power... and with flags when cannot be ignored (airplanes and barrage).
For instance I played a barrage playing carentan causeway with the allies not scoring grenades but flags.... so I thought that the planes (worth a medal) where not hit.

The rule is, the attacking unit takes priority (which is why planes are hit by stars when other planes are attacking). This means that Planes and other Snipers hit Snipers with a Star roll. Planes on the ground have never been able to retreat...so don't keep them on the ground! Smile


Quote:

Try to understand that I don't play this game solo, but with 5-6 friends of mine and the game lose a lot of his fun and beauty when we ( every time more frequently ) found conflicts against the rules. I would have to explain before playing or during playing (and this is a worst situation) the right interpretation.


That would be frustrating. There are always rule questions that come up, but if a rule has changed and I have to tell someone in the middle of play, I usually keep the rule the way it's always been until the end of that battle and then we play by the official rules the next time through.

Quote:

The best thing would be to have an updated version of the faq and print a copy for each friend of mine.

It's a shame that the faq were not already updated by DOW

I want to thank very much ColtsFan76 becuase of his idea.



It's true that it would be nice if DoW made an official FAQ for us, but if it comes down to DoW choosing between work on expansions or work on a FAQ, I would choose an expansion any day of the week.

Good luck with the rules!

[Updated on: Wed, 08 October 2008 21:30]

      
50th
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 21:41
That's not the only change. My best friend and I both bought our games about the same time. I got mine on Ebay, and he got his at a store. One of the terrain helper cards says that bridges block line of sight, and the other says it does not. that caused some confusion, I'll tell you!


__________________
"And while the hordes of death are mighty, the battalions of life are mightier still. It is my hope that my son, when I am gone, will remember me not from the battle but in the home repeating with him our simple daily prayer, 'Our Father who art in heaven." Douglas MacArthur <><
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 21:45
50th wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 21:41

That's not the only change. My best friend and I both bought our games about the same time. I got mine on Ebay, and he got his at a store. One of the terrain helper cards says that bridges block line of sight, and the other says it does not. that caused some confusion, I'll tell you!


__________________
"And while the hordes of death are mighty, the battalions of life are mightier still. It is my hope that my son, when I am gone, will remember me not from the battle but in the home repeating with him our simple daily prayer, 'Our Father who art in heaven." Douglas MacArthur <><



Thanks, I've already discovered that change last year reading the FAQ and Brummbar's helps


      
tank commander
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 23:14
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 15:29

Winter Storm wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 10:01


1) In close assault (one of the weakest card of the game except when you draw it in a melee) i thought that only unit that were adjacent at the beginning of the turn and are still adjacent before rolling the dice can battle. But I think that during armor overrunning the tanks get an additional die in close combat (and thus can fight again only if again in close combat with still an additional dice ) but in the forun I've read that this is not the right interpretation.


As long as the tank is still adjacent to a unit after Armor Overrun, my understanding is that they still enjoy the extra die.




That is not true.

Here is a post from Mr Borg himself about this card:

Q). Close Combat and Taking Ground
On the French forum, we encountered a problem concerning the Close Combat card. If an Armoured Unit is activated with a Close Combat card and eliminates the enemy unit, it can of course take ground. But can it then attack an enemy unit that would not be adjacent?


A). The Close Assault card states - Issues an order to all Infantry and Armor units adjacent to enemy units. Units order battle with 1 additional die. Units may not move before they battle. If you have a large number of units being ordered to close assault, we suggest to avoid possible confusion that you mark all the units you can order, because retreats and eliminating units may change the eligibility of units that can close assault. The second part of the card states - but, after a successful Close Assault, they may Take Ground and Armor units may make an Armor Overrun. We always treated Armor units that made a successful Close Assault would follow the Armor Overrun rules as in the core rule book page 11. - If the ground you take during the Overrun puts you adjacent to an enemy unit, this second battle must once again be a normal Close Combat (no 1 additional die). Otherwise the armor unit may fire at a distant unit. - / Richard Borg

[Updated on: Wed, 08 October 2008 23:14]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Wed, 08 October 2008 23:35
Thanks Tank Commander. I hadn't seen that and it goes against what I would have thought, so it's good to know. I'll have to make a note of that for future games.
      
tank commander
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Thu, 09 October 2008 00:08
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 17:35

Thanks Tank Commander. I hadn't seen that and it goes against what I would have thought, so it's good to know. I'll have to make a note of that for future games.


Yes. I have it copied down in my Mem 44 notebook where I keep the rules and FAQs. I showed that post to the WBC Mem 44 GM as he was not aware of it.

I also have it in it's own folder for easy acces as it has popped up a number of times. Most recently in the last OL game to be played. It is counterintuitive to what one might think about the effects of that card.
      
Zasdert Ultun
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Thu, 09 October 2008 00:43
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 11:52

Old:
http://images.boardgamegeek.com/images/pic381283.jpg

New:
http://images.boardgamegeek.com/images/pic315101_md.jpg


How recently was this updated? I got my M44 less than a year ago and I have the old card? Thanks for the update though, I will now play with this new rule in place.
      
ColtsFan77
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Thu, 09 October 2008 01:39
I bought the game in Febuary of 2006 from an eBay supplier and it had the "new" BEL card but I think it had the "old" Bridge reference card. I bought my 2nd copy a few months later and it had both of the "new" cards.

Perhaps you got old stock somewhere - especially if you bought it in an FLGS.
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Thu, 09 October 2008 11:13
tank commander wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 23:14

rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 15:29

Winter Storm wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 10:01


1) In close assault (one of the weakest card of the game except when you draw it in a melee) i thought that only unit that were adjacent at the beginning of the turn and are still adjacent before rolling the dice can battle. But I think that during armor overrunning the tanks get an additional die in close combat (and thus can fight again only if again in close combat with still an additional dice ) but in the forun I've read that this is not the right interpretation.


As long as the tank is still adjacent to a unit after Armor Overrun, my understanding is that they still enjoy the extra die.




That is not true.

Here is a post from Mr Borg himself about this card:

Q). Close Combat and Taking Ground
On the French forum, we encountered a problem concerning the Close Combat card. If an Armoured Unit is activated with a Close Combat card and eliminates the enemy unit, it can of course take ground. But can it then attack an enemy unit that would not be adjacent?


A). The Close Assault card states - Issues an order to all Infantry and Armor units adjacent to enemy units. Units order battle with 1 additional die. Units may not move before they battle. If you have a large number of units being ordered to close assault, we suggest to avoid possible confusion that you mark all the units you can order, because retreats and eliminating units may change the eligibility of units that can close assault. The second part of the card states - but, after a successful Close Assault, they may Take Ground and Armor units may make an Armor Overrun. We always treated Armor units that made a successful Close Assault would follow the Armor Overrun rules as in the core rule book page 11. - If the ground you take during the Overrun puts you adjacent to an enemy unit, this second battle must once again be a normal Close Combat (no 1 additional die). Otherwise the armor unit may fire at a distant unit. - / Richard Borg



Thank you tank commander..

maybe I didn't explain well what I wanted to do.

I thought that
1) only unit adjacent to the enemy at the start of the turn can battle

2) If a unit because of a retreat is no longer adjacent to the enemy it can't fight.

3) Tanks can combat again only if adjacent again to one enemy and (being in close combat still gain an additional die.

When I said "I've read that it's not the right interpretation" it's because I've always played (like "armor assault" if again in close combat and "their finest hour") with an additional die in armor overruns with close assault.

Thus I discovered that my way of playing based on my comprehension of the card was wrong reading the same post you report in the forum.

I'm asking how many mistake about the right interpretation of that rules I have still to discover... And remember that this is frustrating to me and my friends because I may forget to tell to one of them the last correction I've knew or they may forget that I told them because they have always played in that way for two years.

[Updated on: Thu, 09 October 2008 11:14]

      
red_zebra
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Thu, 09 October 2008 17:08
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 14:37

stringbend wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 14:01

Do the stand-alone card decks that are for sale include the newer BEL cards as well as any other updates?

I just realized that both core versions of the game I bought have the old ones. Shoot!

Yes, they should. They have been in the base game for at least the past 2 or 3 years.


Got the stand-alone card deck with the new airpower cards...
The BEL card has "INFANTRY" in blue letters...but still the old text Rolling Eyes
      
stringbend
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Thu, 09 October 2008 19:24
red_zebra wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 11:08

ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 14:37

stringbend wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 14:01

Do the stand-alone card decks that are for sale include the newer BEL cards as well as any other updates?

I just realized that both core versions of the game I bought have the old ones. Shoot!

Yes, they should. They have been in the base game for at least the past 2 or 3 years.


Got the stand-alone card deck with the new airpower cards...
The BEL card has "INFANTRY" in blue letters...but still the old text Rolling Eyes


Aww man, I just ordered two new decks yesterday in hopes i'd get the new cards. Mad
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Mon, 13 October 2008 00:39
Good luck. I ordered two new decks a week ago. They have new appearance of the card but old text ("Terrain and battle restrictions still apply").

The version of the game I bought in 2005 had the correct text ("Terrain movement restrictions are ignored").

I recently (Sept.) bought a second copy of the game, which has the old text (but new card appearance).

So now, I have 3 new decks with the old text and one old deck with the new text. Makes perfect sense. Although I didn't notice the change to old text until I read this forum. Gotta stop reading Razz
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Mon, 13 October 2008 15:07
I hate when Dow make such mistakes....

I hope that in the future DoW will repalce the BEL card with the correct one... this hobby has becoming a money spinner... at least
I would like to receive a perfect card deck paying 9 euros for a deck or 14 euros for two.
(I received six euros for every hour of hard working this august and september instead of going on holiday after studying ten month without stopping and finishing the third year of engineering in three years i.e. in time...so I don't like to waste money)

I was to order two decks like Sgt. but I prefer to wait a year or even more before waiting a new deck. ...

[Updated on: Mon, 13 October 2008 15:08]

      
KBracey
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Re:Behind enemy lines change Fri, 24 April 2009 02:24
It sounds like DoW may have been putting the old wording in new printings - they've forgotten the change. The copy I picked up last week from my local game shop has the old wording. Surely it can't have been sitting in a warehouse for years? (Although that might explain why my terrain hexes are warped).
      
    
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