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Winter Storm
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Armor bonus die Mon, 13 October 2008 15:34
From Dow core game faq 30/5/2008

Armor Bonus Die
Q. If armor makes an attack which is given a bonus die (ie Their Finest Hour, Armored Assault, etc), at Close Assault range...then retreats/kills the unit it assaults and makes an Armored Overrun...does it keep the bonus die for the second attack?
A. Yes





I'm not happy that the text on the cards and the FAQ are not clear....

Such cards may be only
1) Their finest hour
2) Armor assault
3) Close assault

1)With their finest hour I have no problems.

2)The card says that only units in close combat have tha additional die. So

a) do they have an additional die only if the second combat is an other close combat or also (for instance if they destroy the first enemy unit)
b) may also fire to a unit not adjacent with an additional die ?

3) According th the FAQ (see above) I could use the additional die also in the second combat....but RBorg in a topic said that this is not true..I'm confused ...reading the FAQ (above)even before playing the game for the first time I understood that I've
the additional die even in the second combat.

3.1 Can I attack with the overrun a unit that is not adjacent?
3.2 Do I have an additional die in the second combat.

Please note that I think strongly that the best rule (because has not exceptions) is that in which in every second combat tank units have still the additional die... it's better expecially for new players... It's too complicated to explain that the additional die is only during overrun with Armor assault or Their finest hour but not close assault... a general rule is far better.

Note that I've fought about 95 scenarios and I'm not sure of rules such these yet.



Crying or Very Sad

[Updated on: Mon, 13 October 2008 15:34]

      
gheintze
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Re:Armor bonus die Mon, 13 October 2008 16:48
Winter Storm wrote on Mon, 13 October 2008 09:34



2)The card says that only units in close combat have tha additional die. So

a) do they have an additional die only if the second combat is an other close combat or also (for instance if they destroy the first enemy unit)
b) may also fire to a unit not adjacent with an additional die ?

3) According th the FAQ (see above) I could use the additional die also in the second combat....but RBorg in a topic said that this is not true..I'm confused ...reading the FAQ (above)even before playing the game for the first time I understood that I've
the additional die even in the second combat.

3.1 Can I attack with the overrun a unit that is not adjacent?
3.2 Do I have an additional die in the second combat.



Here are my interpretations.
2a Yes, they only get the additional die if they are close combat again. Units is close combat get an additional die.
2b Yes, they may fire on a unit that is not adjacent, but they don't get the additional die.

3a Yes, you can attack a unit that is not adjacent. This card uses the normal Overrun rules.
3b Yes, you use an additional die in the 2nd combat. Units ordered battle with one additional die.

Geoff
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Armor bonus die Mon, 13 October 2008 18:35
gheintze wrote on Mon, 13 October 2008 16:48

Winter Storm wrote on Mon, 13 October 2008 09:34



2)The card says that only units in close combat have tha additional die. So

a) do they have an additional die only if the second combat is an other close combat or also (for instance if they destroy the first enemy unit)
b) may also fire to a unit not adjacent with an additional die ?

3) According th the FAQ (see above) I could use the additional die also in the second combat....but RBorg in a topic said that this is not true..I'm confused ...reading the FAQ (above)even before playing the game for the first time I understood that I've
the additional die even in the second combat.

3.1 Can I attack with the overrun a unit that is not adjacent?
3.2 Do I have an additional die in the second combat.





Here are my interpretations.
2a Yes, they only get the additional die if they are close combat again. Units is close combat get an additional die.
2b Yes, they may fire on a unit that is not adjacent, but they don't get the additional die.

3a Yes, you can attack a unit that is not adjacent. This card uses the normal Overrun rules.
3b Yes, you use an additional die in the 2nd combat. Units ordered battle with one additional die.

Geoff



Thank you Geoff!

OK, I've played my 90+ games with the same interpretations, but now I'm not sure anymore.


3b The FAq (that is not clear) say that all the unit that has the additional die in the first combat (that is always a close combat)has the additional die also in the second company, not specifying if they are in close combat or fired at range...thus I think that the tanks have additional die in both situations.


3.2. Do I have the additional die only if I attack again a unit in close combat or do I get the bonus both in close combat and firing at distance?

Can Anyone else help me?
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Armor bonus die Mon, 13 October 2008 19:09
I'm confused too, Winter Storm. Didn't we already figure this problem out? The thread you started called "Behind enemy lines change" dealt with this same issue at one point and Tank Commander shared some info directly from R.Borg on this. Cool

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=15692&start=0

Quote:

Here is a post from Mr Borg himself about this card:

Q). Close Combat and Taking Ground
On the French forum, we encountered a problem concerning the Close Combat card. If an Armoured Unit is activated with a Close Combat card and eliminates the enemy unit, it can of course take ground. But can it then attack an enemy unit that would not be adjacent?


A). The Close Assault card states - Issues an order to all Infantry and Armor units adjacent to enemy units. Units order battle with 1 additional die. Units may not move before they battle. If you have a large number of units being ordered to close assault, we suggest to avoid possible confusion that you mark all the units you can order, because retreats and eliminating units may change the eligibility of units that can close assault. The second part of the card states - but, after a successful Close Assault, they may Take Ground and Armor units may make an Armor Overrun. We always treated Armor units that made a successful Close Assault would follow the Armor Overrun rules as in the core rule book page 11. - If the ground you take during the Overrun puts you adjacent to an enemy unit, this second battle must once again be a normal Close Combat (no 1 additional die). Otherwise the armor unit may fire at a distant unit. - / Richard Borg


I hope this helps explain things a little more clearly. Smile I think the idea is that the card Close Assault only gives you the +1 die for one attack...the first attack when you are adjacent to an enemy.
      
gheintze
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Re:Armor bonus die Mon, 13 October 2008 20:44
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 13 October 2008 13:09


Q). Close Combat and Taking Ground
On the French forum, we encountered a problem concerning the Close Combat card. If an Armoured Unit is activated with a Close Combat card and eliminates the enemy unit, it can of course take ground. But can it then attack an enemy unit that would not be adjacent?


A). The Close Assault card states - Issues an order to all Infantry and Armor units adjacent to enemy units. Units order battle with 1 additional die. Units may not move before they battle. If you have a large number of units being ordered to close assault, we suggest to avoid possible confusion that you mark all the units you can order, because retreats and eliminating units may change the eligibility of units that can close assault. The second part of the card states - but, after a successful Close Assault, they may Take Ground and Armor units may make an Armor Overrun. We always treated Armor units that made a successful Close Assault would follow the Armor Overrun rules as in the core rule book page 11. - If the ground you take during the Overrun puts you adjacent to an enemy unit, this second battle must once again be a normal Close Combat (no 1 additional die). Otherwise the armor unit may fire at a distant unit. - / Richard Borg


The problem is, as Winter Storm notes, is that this answer directly contradicts the FAQ as well as the wording of the card.

The card state that ordered units battle with 1 additional die. It doesn't say they only use the die one time.

What I'm trying to say is that there is no way to infer the answer (that Richard gave) from either the card, the FAQ, or the game instructions. And nothing is mentioned in the card copendium for that matter.

DOW either needs to update the FAQ (which ColtsFan was trying to do for a long time), or ditch the FAQ and convert those answers to the card compendium.

There is no way an answer this important should be buried in the French forum somewhere.

Geoff

[Updated on: Mon, 13 October 2008 20:45]

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Armor bonus die Mon, 13 October 2008 20:58
-------------------------
Geoff said:

The problem is, as Winter Storm notes, is that this answer directly contradicts the FAQ as well as the wording of the card.
--------------------------------


Exactly
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Armor bonus die Mon, 13 October 2008 21:28
I fully agree guys! Smile I would never have guessed that was the rule and I would love to see an official deal on this at the Card Data Base or something too!

There's only one reason I can imagine for the change in rules here (because I agree, there's no way for us to know the rule based on what we have). My only thought is that R.Borg thought the rule was clear...he thought it was clear that you can only get the +1 for the first attack you make. I know that when I'm teaching, I think my directions are perfectly clear until the students are all doing the activity wrong! Very Happy

So at this point, we need to know if R.Borg wants to change the rule to what we all thought it was (you get the +1 for the whole turn in Close Assault) or if he wants us to use his original intention (you get +1 only on the first attack). Does that sound right? Rolling Eyes Cool

[Updated on: Mon, 13 October 2008 21:29]

      
Caboose
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Re:Armor bonus die Mon, 13 October 2008 21:36
The above sounds correct - seems RBorg wanted the extra dice for the first attack and any subsequent attack for that same turn would be done under normal conditions (no additional die).

Cab
      
gheintze
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Re:Armor bonus die Mon, 13 October 2008 21:44
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 13 October 2008 15:28


So at this point, we need to know if R.Borg wants to change the rule to what we all thought it was (you get the +1 for the whole turn in Close Assault) or if he wants us to use his original intention (you get +1 only on the first attack). Does that sound right? Rolling Eyes Cool


The more important question is "Does DOW want to keep the rule as written in the FAQ or on the cards or change to Richard's intention?"

Game companies often change rules from the designers for clarity, ease of play, cost reasons, etc...

For now, I'm going to play by the FAQ and the card text (as I wrote above). Until the card compendium says differently, those are the only "official" DOW answers as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not going to ferret through every forum attempting to find answers when they are already answered by the "official" FAQ.

Geoff
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Armor bonus die Mon, 13 October 2008 23:48
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 13 October 2008 21:28

I fully agree guys! Smile I would never have guessed that was the rule and I would love to see an official deal on this at the Card Data Base or something too!

There's only one reason I can imagine for the change in rules here (because I agree, there's no way for us to know the rule based on what we have). My only thought is that R.Borg thought the rule was clear...he thought it was clear that you can only get the +1 for the first attack you make. I know that when I'm teaching, I think my directions are perfectly clear until the students are all doing the activity wrong! Very Happy

So at this point, we need to know if R.Borg wants to change the rule to what we all thought it was (you get the +1 for the whole turn in Close Assault) or if he wants us to use his original intention (you get +1 only on the first attack). Does that sound right? Rolling Eyes Cool



Rasmussen 81, first congratulations for your victory of the user pages contest.

Once I thaught something similar to your opinion. Reading in every card what it's written I can read them in two ways:

1) (More probable) You can an additional die only in the first round and the faq is wrong.

2) (Less probable) One additional die in battle means an additional die during the whole turn i.e. in each combat.

However I strongly think that the rule may be the same for every card, not one rule for two cards and one for the other....

IN ADDITION TO HYPOTESIS ONE REMEMBER THAT THE FAQ WITH RBORG'S FIRM HAD ALREADY A BIG ERROR ABOUT COUNTER-ATTACKING THE "RECON" AS "AIR POWER". RBORG SAID AGAINST THE FAQ THAT YOU COUNTER ATTACK THE CARD, NOT THE EFFECT. (I WAS CLOSE TO LOSE RED BARRICADES BECAUSE THE RUSSIAN COUNTER-ATTACKED MY RECON AS AIR POWER KILLING THREE UNITS! IT FINISHED 10-9)

Personally such things could make me think that DoW didn't even listen to RBorg....

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Armor bonus die Mon, 13 October 2008 23:51
In addition if you have an additional die in the second combat too you will have two die instead of one. Very Happy

Seriously, If there was an additional die, there would be a clear indication on the card...
      
RBorg
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Re:Armor bonus die Tue, 14 October 2008 05:42
Winter Storm wrote on Mon, 13 October 2008 09:34]From Dow core game faq 30/5/2008

Armor Bonus Die
Q. If armor makes an attack which is given a bonus die (ie Their Finest Hour, Armored Assault, etc), at Close Assault range...then retreats/kills the unit it assaults and makes an Armored Overrun...does it keep the bonus die for the second attack?
A. Yes

I'm not happy that the text on the cards and the FAQ are not clear....

Such cards may be only
1) Their finest hour
2) Armor assault
3) Close assault

1)With their finest hour I have no problems.

(RB) Thanks no problems Wink
With Their Finest Hour, an ordered unit battles with 1 additional die.


2)The card says that only units in close combat have tha additional die. So

a) do they have an additional die only if the second combat is an other close combat or also (for instance if they destroy the first enemy unit)
b) may also fire to a unit not adjacent with an additional die ?

(RB) I assume 2) means Armor Assault

The Armor Assault Command card reads - Units in Close Assault roll 1 additional die.
- If a Armor unit is ordered by Armor Assault Command card and the Armor unit is not in Close Assault, it does not roll 1 additional die.


3) According th the FAQ (see above) I could use the additional die also in the second combat....but RBorg in a topic said that this is not true..I'm confused ...reading the FAQ (above)even before playing the game for the first time I understood that I've
the additional die even in the second combat.

(RB) I assume 3) means Close Assault Command card

First the FAQ above does not include the Close Assault Command card!
Perhaps you have confused the issue of a Close Assault action that can happen when the Their Finest Hour or the Armor Assault cards are played.

3.1 Can I attack with the overrun a unit that is not adjacent?

(RB) A unit order by the Close Assault Command card must be adjacent to an enemy unit. Units that are not adjacent may not be ordered by the Command card.

3.2 Do I have an additional die in the second combat.

(RB) Armor units ordered by a Close Assault Command card, after a successful Close Assault may make a normal Armor Overrun. This Armor Overrun is not with 1 additional die.


Please note that I think strongly that the best rule (because has not exceptions) is that in which in every second combat tank units have still the additional die... it's better expecially for new players... It's too complicated to explain that the additional die is only during overrun with Armor assault or Their finest hour but not close assault... a general rule is far better.

(RB) It would seem that you do understand how the Close Assault Command card should play. To that end, if you would like to house rule for players that you are teaching, please do so, always great to have new players enjoying Memoir.


Note that I've fought about 95 scenarios and I'm not sure of rules such these yet.

(RB) If you tend to play with a number of house rules, I understand some of the rule confusion.

Thanks for your questions...
Richard Borg
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Armor bonus die Tue, 14 October 2008 09:07
RBorg wrote on Tue, 14 October 2008 05:42

Winter Storm wrote on Mon, 13 October 2008 09:34]From Dow core game faq 30/5/2008

Armor Bonus Die
Q. If armor makes an attack which is given a bonus die (ie Their Finest Hour, Armored Assault, etc), at Close Assault range...then retreats/kills the unit it assaults and makes an Armored Overrun...does it keep the bonus die for the second attack?
A. Yes

I'm not happy that the text on the cards and the FAQ are not clear....

Such cards may be only
1) Their finest hour
2) Armor assault
3) Close assault

1)With their finest hour I have no problems.

(RB) Thanks no problems Wink
With Their Finest Hour, an ordered unit battles with 1 additional die.


2)The card says that only units in close combat have tha additional die. So

a) do they have an additional die only if the second combat is an other close combat or also (for instance if they destroy the first enemy unit)
b) may also fire to a unit not adjacent with an additional die ?

(RB) I assume 2) means Armor Assault

The Armor Assault Command card reads - Units in Close Assault roll 1 additional die.
- If a Armor unit is ordered by Armor Assault Command card and the Armor unit is not in Close Assault, it does not roll 1 additional die.


3) According th the FAQ (see above) I could use the additional die also in the second combat....but RBorg in a topic said that this is not true..I'm confused ...reading the FAQ (above)even before playing the game for the first time I understood that I've
the additional die even in the second combat.

(RB) I assume 3) means Close Assault Command card

First the FAQ above does not include the Close Assault Command card!
Perhaps you have confused the issue of a Close Assault action that can happen when the Their Finest Hour or the Armor Assault cards are played.

3.1 Can I attack with the overrun a unit that is not adjacent?

(RB) A unit order by the Close Assault Command card must be adjacent to an enemy unit. Units that are not adjacent may not be ordered by the Command card.

3.2 Do I have an additional die in the second combat.

(RB) Armor units ordered by a Close Assault Command card, after a successful Close Assault may make a normal Armor Overrun. This Armor Overrun is not with 1 additional die.


Please note that I think strongly that the best rule (because has not exceptions) is that in which in every second combat tank units have still the additional die... it's better expecially for new players... It's too complicated to explain that the additional die is only during overrun with Armor assault or Their finest hour but not close assault... a general rule is far better.

(RB) It would seem that you do understand how the Close Assault Command card should play. To that end, if you would like to house rule for players that you are teaching, please do so, always great to have new players enjoying Memoir.


Note that I've fought about 95 scenarios and I'm not sure of rules such these yet.

(RB) If you tend to play with a number of house rules, I understand some of the rule confusion.

Thanks for your questions...
Richard Borg



Thank you for the game and the Command and color system, Mr Borg!
Once I played to Battlecry in a napoleonic historical parade with a guy dresses as a rebel and when I heard of the wwii version I soon bought it and that money were the best spent in my life.... soon after I discovered that the game of bluffing and die we played in our house if 50 students where yours!!!

I've played my about 90+ scenarios always trying to follow the official rules (though I've developed some variants), i.e. in the way I understood the rules.

Sometimes the rules are less clear and they are misunderstood.

You said that the FAQ doesn't include close assault.
But it says "if armor makes an attack in which is given a bonus attack" and this is tru for the close assault.
I.E. in the FAQ there is written (AA, TFH, etc.)
etc. could stay only (with the actual rules but we are talking about the base game and not the expanctions) for the Close assault, because BEL gives an addtional die to infantry only and you cannot do a close combat with firefight.


Sorry If I was boring, but I think that there are hundred of people confused about that things.

Thank you again for the hours of fun togheter with my friends I get from the game



P.S. I've heard that you've bought back the rights of battlecry from Avalon Hill and that you're making a civil war game with Eagle Games...Could Battlecry come back?
Smile

[Updated on: Tue, 14 October 2008 12:29]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Armor bonus die Tue, 14 October 2008 15:52
Hey Winter Storm,

I realize that you aren't particularly happy with the official rules and there are some areas that confuse you. You've mentioned a few times how you want to play by the rules with your friends and that you've played a lot of games with the wrong rules and didn't even realize it. That can be very frustrating and you've done a good job identifying some of the most confusing rules in Memoir'44.

You're right, the FAQ doesn't always answer your questions perfectly but as far as I can tell, your questions have mostly been answered now by R.Borg himself. So what's the problem at this point? Rolling Eyes You have an official ruling from the creator of the game. It may take a while for DoW to change their FAQ to fit what R.Borg has said, but they will. In the mean time, you have two choices; you can start playing by the official rules R.Borg has clarified for us and ignore what the card says in cases like BEL or what the FAQ says, or you can disregard the latest update and play by the rules that make the most sense to you and your group.

It serves no purpose to talk about how a different interpretation is more logical or how the official rule doesn't make as much sense. If you don't like the official rulings, use house rules or play the way you've always been playing. When it comes down to it, the game is meant to be fun so do whatever you need to make it fun. Cool
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Armor bonus die Tue, 14 October 2008 17:17
Of course I will always playing following RBorg's explanations....

(...though I decided to don't use the air pack to come back with the standard rules of the core game that I prefer).

However I hope that in the future new rules will be more clear.

[Updated on: Tue, 14 October 2008 17:24]

      
    
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