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marnick
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blitz rules got it backwards Thu, 01 April 2010 17:10
After playing some eastern front, me and my friend thought that the blitz rules weren't as impressive as they could have been. Often the russian tanks are bunkered or in sandbags, which means they don't move at all. Thus the tank rules are null and void.

On the other hand, if blitz had been that german could move 4 and battle, I would really have feared his blitz tactics. Especially after playing every scenario in the base game, it just doesn't feel right, and certainly not terrifying in any way.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:blitz rules got it backwards Thu, 01 April 2010 17:19
Don't forget that the Blitz rule doesn't only deal with Armor movement. The Axis player is also able to call Air Strikes (or Air Sorties if you're using the Air Pack) every time they pull a Recon 1 card! Air attacks are something to fear, I think.

Interesting idea though, to allow the German tanks to move 4 hexes. Have you tried it yet to see how it plays?

I would think moving 4 hexes on a normal map would be really deadly because they could essentially attack units that are 7 hexes away (move 4 hexes and attack 3 hexes). But I could see this rule being interesting to play with the Breakthrough maps...Rolling Eyes
      
marnick
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Re:blitz rules got it backwards Thu, 01 April 2010 17:26
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 01 April 2010 17:19

Don't forget that the Blitz rule doesn't only deal with Armor movement. The Axis player is also able to call Air Strikes (or Air Sorties if you're using the Air Pack) every time they pull a Recon 1 card! Air attacks are something to fear, I think.

Interesting idea though, to allow the German tanks to move 4 hexes. Have you tried it yet to see how it plays?

I would think moving 4 hexes on a normal map would be really deadly because they could essentially attack units that are 7 hexes away (move 4 hexes and attack 3 hexes). But I could see this rule being interesting to play with the Breakthrough maps...Rolling Eyes


That's probably the reason they did it the way they did, because the board is only 9 hexes deep. But the whole point of blitzkrieg was to make tanks that are faster than the opponent, not by slowing down opponents tanks (which is actually what happens when moving from base game to EF)

It'd be a cool houserule but the game would become horribly unbalanced. Maybe 0-3 move and battle 4, maybe 5, move but not battle which would allow the germans to cap objectives faster (also the idea behind blitzkrieg).
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:blitz rules got it backwards Fri, 02 April 2010 11:16
Blitzkrieg was a successful tactic built around the close cooperation of infantry, armour and air forces. Reducing allied armour to 2 hexes does give the Germans the tactical advantage and the Recon 1 rule represents increased air support - just as it should be.

Blitkrieg wasn't about German tanks being faster.

[Updated on: Fri, 02 April 2010 11:16]

      
tank commander
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Re:blitz rules got it backwards Sat, 03 April 2010 11:58
Achtung Panzer wrote on Fri, 02 April 2010 05:16


Blitkrieg wasn't about German tanks being faster.




Exactly right.

I think that some think that just because one tank could move at 20mph speed while another may move at 30 mph (as an example), that this should be reflected in the game. This may hold true in a strictly low level tactical game, but becomes somewhat useless info at higher levels.

Also, those speeds are top speeds and were rarely used in the field -- with good reason too.

Moving from point A to point B on a battlefield AND getting into action as an effective fighting force involved many factors. Command control (leadership) was key -- this lead to decisive action both before, during and after any battle.

While one side may have an accomplished this the other may have been hindered by their inability or lesser ability in this area or from following a doctrine that did not fit the time. Witness the penny packet method of the French in 1940 when they doled out most of their armor along the front -- this left them with few massed armor formations with which to counter the German panzer divisions.

[Updated on: Sat, 03 April 2010 23:45]

      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:blitz rules got it backwards Sat, 03 April 2010 22:14
tank commander wrote on Sat, 03 April 2010 05:58

Achtung Panzer wrote on Fri, 02 April 2010 05:16


Blitkrieg wasn't about German tanks being faster.




Exactly right.

I think that some think that just because one tank could move at 20mph speed while another may move at 30 mph (as an example), that this should be reflected in the game. This may hold true in a strictly low level tactical game, but becomes somewhat useless info at higher levels.

Also, those speeds are top speeds and were rarely used in the field -- with good reason too.

Moving from point A to point B on a battlefield AND getting into action as an effective fighting force involved many factors. Command control (leadership) was key -- this lead to decisive action both before, during and after any battle.

While one side may have an accomplished this the other may have been hindered by their inability or lesser ability in this area or from following a doctrine that did not fit the time. Witness the penny packet method of the French in 1940 when they doled out their armor along the front -- this left them with few massed armor formations with which to counter the German panzer divisions.


I agree with the general points here, especially about the blitz rules not being intended to reflect faster tanks.

But I also think the game should make some accommodations for variations in armor speed; here's why: traditionally, any kind of fighting vehicle design is influenced by three primary (and mutually exclusive) factors -- speed, armament, and armor. Think of them as existing at the three points of a triangle, and the further you move towards any single point, the further *from* the other points you have to move. These are the type of choices and sacrifices that have to be made in design. If you want a fast vehicle, you can't have thick armor or a heavy cannon weighing it down. It's just physics -- it doesn't work. Likewise, if you invest a lot of design into the thickness of the armor plating, you'll be able to withstand more and bigger shells, but that added weight that slows it down.

It's not just true in tanks, but in naval and aircraft, as well.

I understand that Memoir is an abstract game and that at the usual scale (more strategy than tactical), you wouldn't see much difference in armor speeds. For example, I think all medium tanks (T-34, Sherman, Pz IV, etc) should have the same speed, even though there were historic variations, even in combat. My objection is that M44 opens the door to debate when it starts specializing tanks -- making it a less abstract game. Tigers, for example, are nearly impossible to kill in this game. This is not in itself ahistorical, but this benefit not being offset by a drawback, like reduced speed, is.

The same is true, though to a lesser degree, for the 4-figure "elite" or "heavy" units from earlier in the game's history.

I know that's a bit off-topic in this thread, but it seemed worth pointing out.
Smile



      
Mighty Jim 83
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Re:blitz rules got it backwards Sun, 04 April 2010 12:25
i think the triangle idea works well when you're all operating at the peak of engineering capability, but during the blitzkrieg phase, surely a major aspect is that the other powers were massively behind in terms of their armaments. A tank with a small engine/inefficient gun will be low in one aspect, without necessarily gaining in the other.

As far as the Tigers go, it's been discussed before, but statistically, they're not that much harder to kill - single figure and everything - much of the advantage is psychological...
      
Maimed
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Re:blitz rules got it backwards Sun, 04 April 2010 18:23
The Blitz rules are missing the Stukas, which gave the Germans the close support vs enemy units, maybe a marker to reduse defence 1 point, so tanks would fire with 2 Dice vs a town / woods if stukas are attacking too

just a thought

Cheers
      
rasmussen81
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Re:blitz rules got it backwards Sun, 04 April 2010 19:40
Maimed wrote on Sun, 04 April 2010 09:23

The Blitz rules are missing the Stukas, which gave the Germans the close support vs enemy units, maybe a marker to reduse defence 1 point, so tanks would fire with 2 Dice vs a town / woods if stukas are attacking too

just a thought

Cheers



If we ever get Stuka miniatures that could work. As it is though, the Blitz rules already give the Germans an air advantage because they can use 'Recon 1' cards as Air Power (or Air Sortie) cards!
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:blitz rules got it backwards Sun, 04 April 2010 20:21
Yup, we don't necessarily need more rules, just British figures in Western Europe battledress and proper tank models. Nod

      
Mighty Jim 83
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Re:blitz rules got it backwards Sun, 04 April 2010 23:19
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 04 April 2010 18:40

Maimed wrote on Sun, 04 April 2010 09:23

The Blitz rules are missing the Stukas, which gave the Germans the close support vs enemy units, maybe a marker to reduse defence 1 point, so tanks would fire with 2 Dice vs a town / woods if stukas are attacking too

just a thought

Cheers



If we ever get Stuka miniatures that could work. As it is though, the Blitz rules already give the Germans an air advantage because they can use 'Recon 1' cards as Air Power (or Air Sortie) cards!


Stuka figures would be nice, but as you say, we get the effect from strafing (even if it is a Bf109)

perhaps if the scenario involved a lot of Stuka action, you could add a scenario-specific ruling allowing the plane to ground support - like the spitfires with the 250lb bombs in Operation Goodwood (scenario 15 in the airpack).
      
    
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