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onyx puffin LOL
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 22:11
I wade into this discussion expecting to get bounced.

1. First at kid and angel, as one who was around in 2005, I understand what angel is saying. When he understood the ramifications with the other account, He stopped playing that account, so that can be end of that topic. (Please, the rest of us beg you both)

2. When you have been cheated, it burns you, and so I fully understand thekid's reaction. I wish more of you understood that perspective!

3. Is angel saying he believes the Austrian team should be forfeit from the Tournament this year? (and is this what Marschall feels is right?) There is a part of me that understands that feeling, but as a captain of another team, I know I cannot vouch absolutely for every member of my team. One hopes for integrity among teammates but how can one be sure? I remember being on skype with a teammate watching another teammates game, and realizing how easy using skype would be to cheat to tell third teammate block this!!!!!. But integrity and morality is important to me. Yet I know that is not a shared value by all. So no way do I think a whole team should be punished. Please know I feel this decision by Shamo was the best he could do.

4. As for the cheating factor and fix, I do believe that the higher ranked player should be allowed the option of clicking off the observable button. Many of us would not do so, thus you could still have enough observable games. It sure would be nice to see who is observing your game in the lobby. Then we could send messages to the audience while we play too.

[Updated on: Wed, 17 November 2010 22:12]

      
CAT-suburu
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 22:25
Hi Dea and tewe, Angel, Lucu, Pammes and Karin,

As captain and personally, all my support to you all, as I can imagine that it is extremely sad to discover that one of your team members cheated when you gave him/her all the trust.

I just agree with the opinion that we play for fun and even we do it in a competitive way, there is no reason at all to cheat. There is no honour in winning a game cheating and whoever does it looses everyone else's respect (mine at least, for sure).

I thank the ones in a cheaters-cleaning mission because it is a disgusting job to do but i hope it will serve to avoid having other cheaters around and the fun will hopefully come back.

Finally, I also think TTR is based on trust. I know that trust do not mean anything for the ones who cheat but even with the unknown cheaters around I still prefer open games. I was presumably cheated once (kid will say that i deserved it, i'm not sure...). It is not nice but the conclusion after the initial shock was that there were much more nicer and trustier people around than cheaters. The first ones keep playing, the second ones leave TTR.

Don't let the cheaters ruin us.

      
wostwuist
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 23:34
Sorry if I repeat anything that is already typed here. But the thread is exploded since the last time I had time to read the posts today .....

There are cheaters in tournements, yes, but I think we should keep an eye on the percentage of cheaters in a community of players I will trust. Therefore I will neither play nor observe a game with hidden card option. So maybe I deserve to be cheated because of my trust in people, but I will take the risk.

For all cheaters: what a miserable real life you must have, if winning in an online game is so important to you especially if your team gets blamed along with you.

I would like to thank the players who detected the cheater for the fair handling of the case, you did a great job. Thanks.

WW
      
Angel 6
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Re:I'm sorry Thu, 18 November 2010 10:21
onyx puffin AMD schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 22:11

3. Is angel saying he believes the Austrian team should be forfeit from the Tournament this year?

No, I didn't say or mean that. I wrote "...cheaters and their teams should be punished beyond losing the cheated wins" because:
-) A cheater has to be punished beyond losing the cheated wins, because otherwise cheating is almost for free. A weak player could think: "If I don't cheat against Sven, I'll lose. If I cheat and geht caught, I'll also lose, np. But if I cheat and win, it's great". So imho there must be draconic penalties for cheating to prevent some of it.
-) The team of a cheater should be punished considerably for "psycological reaons" imho. A cheater might think "I do the cheating for my team and my land. If I'm caught, only I will be punished but not my team". We should make clear that by cheating you damage your own reputation+score AND your team's AND your country's. There is no need to get personal in any way, but I would e.g. simple take one clash-win off a cheating team (in addition to taking off the cheated wins) to give every player one more reason NOT TO CHEAT.

[Updated on: Thu, 18 November 2010 10:31]

      
Truckerteller
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Re:I'm sorry Thu, 18 November 2010 15:41
Yet another sad episode in TTR tournament play. Not surprising in general (I agree with Stephan and Mudda that this is but the tip of the iceberg), but in this case quite surprising for me (contrary to the rest on xbomanx wall of shame) and I'm sure the rest of AT. So yes, I can sympathise fully with dea's sense of shame and responsibility. I for one, would feel like a complete a$$ if any of my teammates would turn out to have won in a dodgy fashion, even though it would come as a complete surprise. So yes, Angel, maybe you could state your utter surprise and embarrasment when tK asks about the background of this case. One of your friends is taking a dump on your and your team's reputation after all.

The cheating itself I find pityful, deplorable, and I'm sure the end results of previous tournaments might have turned out differently if no cheating had occured earlier in those tournaments. Who knows. It hardly matters, most anybody here finds it pityful and deplorable.

But what really annoys and angers me is the constant namby pampy attitude of tournament directors and players when confronted with cheaters.
- TD's who say "I do not want to make that decision" or "I only want to help, not judge" or "I only want to post the line-ups".
- Players who say "you can never know for sure" or "blah-blah flaming sword waving"
- Or people who say things like "a true number one plays open because he trusts the community"
- Or TD's who - when pressed - make "special rules" for Monstarmaster, but do not simply tell him to sod off.
- Or TD's who are not sure about Deveric, so he can still play
- Or League players who have no problem with Deveric remaining in their league
- Or TD's who take out spartandope, because the account is being used by Dennis and Acemandope. Yet Acemandope remains in the tourney and is allowed to captain again.
- Or a TD who tells Gosha and 2Cutter to be quiet when finding out about Deveric, only to "give in" when pressed and confirmed by Sysyphus
- Or team members who think it's a good idea to be on one team with Denmark "he studies in Denmark" or Neven Subotic or Superlok
- Or team members who think it's a good idea to be on the same team with someone who is known to have (had) lots of second acounts, but is never honest about them.

None of you are to blame, cheaters are to blame. By avoiding all responsibility however, you are partly responsible in my book. Similar to voting for political parties that want to abolish the police.

If you don't want to "Direct" don't become a "Director".

Innocent until proven guilty, but untrustworthy on-line until proven trustworthy.

ps. Some of you may see this as a personal attack. It's not meant that way at all (otherwise your name would be in there as well). Being a TD or a captain comes with a lot of crap and I'm for a large part happy with those that take on that responsibility. But there's a law-enforcement part to it as well.
      
SYN Stephan1972
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Re:I'm sorry Thu, 18 November 2010 16:26
No one has addressed the other issues I raised.

The issue of open observation not only causes problems due to cheating, but also because it

1) affects our perceptions of other players' actions - I think open games rely on trust but also foster mistrust.

2) affects honest players' actions. Some players may be reluctant to block too early based on gut instinct, because they feel it might imply cheating; and so will only do so if 'clearly justified' (i.e. when obvious too an impartial observer why they did so). That is a big problem in my view, as it prevents development of better TTR skills.

The solution is not to get better at 'hunting cheats', the solution is to make it a non-issue. This can only be done through an observation mode without colours and tickets. I think the pros far outweigh the cons.

      
Mr Bean
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Re:I'm sorry Thu, 18 November 2010 16:44
BH Stephan1972 wrote on Thu, 18 November 2010 16:26

No one has addressed the other issues I raised.

The issue of open observation not only causes problems due to cheating, but also because it

1) affects our perceptions of other players' actions - I think open games rely on trust but also foster mistrust.

2) affects honest players' actions. Some players may be reluctant to block too early based on gut instinct, because they feel it might imply cheating; and so will only do so if 'clearly justified' (i.e. when obvious to an impartial observer why they did so). That is a big problem in my view, as it prevents development of better TTR skills.

The solution is not to get better at 'hunting cheats', the solution is to make it a non-issue. This can only be done through an observation mode without colours and tickets. I think the pros far outweigh the cons.




1) as soon as I feel I can't trust an opponent anymore --> I don't want to play that person: open, closed, blindfolded, whatever.

2) as soon as I don't dare to make whatever play i want to make, because i would be afraid that someone else might think i'm cheating --> I stop playing altogether

3) as soon as an observation mode is introduced without colours and tickets --> I stop watching/following that game/tournament.

Just my 0,02


      
erps
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Re:I'm sorry Thu, 18 November 2010 19:04
Hi Folks,

sad news, but what do you expect? Every year the same story and nothing happens. There are cheats out there and nothing will stop them.

There is a solution and it is the "Fix the damned observation bug". What is the alternative? You have to dig into the lives of people you don't know. There is the need to investigate IP-numbers to find clues (btw it is a strong evidence, but in no way a proof, such numbers are not always safe and sound to handle).

I find this disgusting. The community has to decide: A atmosphere of constant fear or snoopery, no trust even between team members and such problems like couples/friends living together and sharing IPs. Every action leads only to the next problem, because the cheat will use another ip and so on. Or you can get a better observation mode (as default, closed and totally open still possible) and most problems are solved.

DOW should make the thing open source and the bug is fixed within a week. Or at least make the code publically available for finding the bugs and reporting them.

I don't know why people think, hidden cards is boring. It would be a good thing for real analysis, because you have to guess the tickets of your team member and you can't even sure till the last move that they have matching colors. Combine this with the possibility to rewind the whole game at the end, but this time with all cards watchable and even screenshots or recording would be possible again.

cu
erps



      
GenuineFauxFarm
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Re:I'm sorry Thu, 18 November 2010 21:54
Ok,

It seems that *most* people would agree that some level of happiness could be reached if there were a fix to the observation levels. I think Stephan and erps define it well enough.

Here is http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/contact/free_form/

A link to go tell DoW that you would like to see this fixed.

I highly doubt they read all of this. As it is we are simply yelling at ourselves and nothing will be done by those who maintain the software.

But, if many of us *politely* outline and describe the problem to them using this form, a response of some sort is more likely.

IN FACT - if someone would be willing to choose the WORDING and most of us could agree to the wording - each of us could copy-paste and send it to DoW so we could give a consistent request to them (rather than a bunch of opinions that may not match on first glance).

Rob

[Updated on: Thu, 18 November 2010 21:56]

      
OLE Masimo
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Re:I'm sorry Thu, 18 November 2010 22:34
@Faux - if we want to have a chance of any improval we will have to state very precisely WHAT EXACTLY is not working correctly. How does the improval has to be - so we will have to define our request as detailed as possible then send it to DoW (and still then I am afraid there will be no action taken by DoW ;( )

still I want to state why I am a fan of open games (for tournaments with spectators!) - especially if you take the time to watch games with friends in a conference - with hidden tix/cards you have no chance to discuss moves or detect mistakes (i.e. wouldn`t it have been better if she/he took the blue open instead of a closed card?- wouldn`t the 6 blank have been better now than the 6 whites ...- etc... - this is only possible when you have the basic information - you can`t talk about the best time to claim the 6 red i.e. when you can`t even see how many reds the player has or where he is going)

- but apparently there are different oppinions here which is ok and I wouldn`t mind the option of having the higher ranked player choose hidden cards once that works properly. I wouldn`t be very interested in watching these games - but I can`t watch all the games anyway ...

as Faux mentined - maybee someone can describe the bug precisely and include what the changes should look like and then we send that to DoW and see what happens?


      
erps
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Re:I'm sorry Thu, 18 November 2010 23:51
Hi,

with a hide cards observation mode there is no longer a problem to chat or talk with your team members. No one hinders a player to TELL his team mates his ticks to discuss them.

I even think that "helping" or giving hints is no longer cheating, because i doubt that it is helpful to get 5 advices while playing. And as it is not possible to know the cards of the opponent... no one is harmed in any way.

cu
erps
      
dea1
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Re:I'm sorry Fri, 19 November 2010 00:53
Things we could wish from DOW:

Maybe we could vote on the priority these things have for us - then ask DOW for at least the top priority.
If we want to do that, we should vote now - still voters (=the current NC board reps) available, and 9 months time for DOW to implement it.

Here's what I assembled from several discussions:

A) Fix the obeservation mode
Details: don't print ticks kept in the middle window, don't show cards "flying by" that you can see for a short moment.

Effect for us: We can play "really closed" games if we really want that

B) Provide information who is watching
Details:
Show all observers of a game
- either to all observers while observing (wouldn't show it to the players, this would probably be disturbing and could also provide clues, eg "if many observers leave before last turn there's no use to draw ticks")
- or in some kind of "log" that you can look up later; no need to have a huge database for tons of logs, they can be deleted after some hours

Effect for us: You can see, what's "fishy" - maybe that's enough to feel a little safer and continue playing open. Anyhow, it would be interesting, I guess.

C) Let observers choose whom to watch
Details:
Give the observers the possibility to choose, which player they want to watch, instead of always making it the higher rated player.
Combine with the existing feature "buddies only" - ideally both players should be able to select their observation mode, if that's too complicated it will also do to have the starting player choose it for both.

Effect for us: All players can allow their teammates, friends, or whoever else they trust to watch their games (currently only the higher ranked player can, so it would be pretty unfair to use that). That's even an improvement if people generally play open games - you can select, who you want to see.

D) who has further ideas?
      
Qorlas
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Re:I'm sorry Fri, 19 November 2010 01:27
A) is necessary and would be already enough to solve the problem.
In this way observers cannot give real advantage

B) would be nice too.

Q.
      
Knockando
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Re:I'm sorry Fri, 19 November 2010 10:47
I write in french to be sure to tell exactly what I think, I hope someone will translate in english...

J'ai beaucoup réfléchi au problème, et je pense qu'il y a une solution pour éliminer la tricherie individuelle.
Cela correspond en partie à ce que DEA énonce dans son point B.

Tous les observateurs d'une partie doivent être listés, avec leur numéro ID + leur pseudo, même s'ils ne sont restés que quelques instants. Ainsi si quelqu'un regarde sa propre partie, ou si le même ID d'un joueur inconnu revient trop souvent observer le même joueur, il sera possible de le savoir. Cette liste des observateurs doit être disponible pour tous (les 2 joueurs et les observateurs) dans la fenêtre de jeu. Elle peut être soit visible en permanence, soit ouvert ou fermée d'un clic (comme la liste des contacts dans le lobby), selon vos idées sur ce sujet et les possibilités techniques pour DOW.
Il faut bien sûr qu'un invité ne puisse pas regarder la partie.

Ainsi, quelqu'un qui veut voir le jeu de son adversaire devra s'ouvrir différents compte, avec différents ID. C'est toujours possible, mais demande une volonté de tricher et une organisation qui limiteront considérablement le nombre de tricheurs. La plupart des joueurs qui trichent le fond parce que c'est facile à faire et qu'ils ont cédé à la tentation, dès que ça va demander une plus grande organisation ils vont abandonner.

Par contre, ça n'empêchera pas que la triche "en équipe" entre 2 joueurs connus reste possible, l'un jouant et l'autre regardant le jeu de l'adversaire et informant par skype par exemple. Mais je pense que les cas de triche sont surtout individuels, et que ce cas est très rare...En cas de suspicion, il restera toujours la partie fermée...

      
AAA_Pammes
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Re:I'm sorry Fri, 19 November 2010 14:03
first of all compliment to dea for the sad task she had as a captain
as a teammate i am still a little bit numb (its just hard to believe when you know somebody personally)

cheating seems to be a fact
i dont know why people cheat, becuase there is no money envolved
just honor
and in my view you lose all your honor while cheating
therefore i cant understand why there is reason for it

on the other hand i can understand somehow, what i heard people saying, that team-pressure, (not to let down teammates down or so might people drive into it) or the fun of being one time number one or have a ranking of 1700+

on the other hand for me thats the fun of such a NC
that you can&acute;t predict the winner in any match
yes there are higher and lower percentages but NC over the years and i play NC for quite some time shows, that so called underdogs might get luckier, play somehow better and win nevertheless without cheating (at least most of the time)
on the other hand you lose games you should have won just by being and playing dumb/having a bad day or whatever you call it and i even remmeber gamse where both stars play dumb (elric do you remember as well gg) and the fun of teammates picking you apart afterwards or an entire lobby congratulating for a good game - thats the fun of NC in my opinion
(i remember many games i watched with dea or somebody else and we just got mad how you can play that or that way)

if there is no more abseration possible, i would pity it
because i love to observe games and discuss it afterwards or during the plays

in other playing communities
(for example brettspielwelt) is a log
that helps after a game to analyse it as dea said if you store the log for example for 24 hours that should be enough to get to conclusions and you can ask players why somebody made that move or not (but from my own experience and mode of play i dont play always just logically because you get a gut feeling and obey to it and make a move) - there is not everything explainable... but nevertheless i think tracking people and observing more closely who you suspect of cheating makes a lot of sense and brings in my view cheaters in the long way in the open

the other problem is, that all that stuff over the last months or even years lessens the fun of playing ttr (cheating, the mode of conversation and confrontations in the lobby (kid-angel confrontations, etc)

actually i think most of the people and i am one of them just play for fun and nothing else, to have some nice hours and conversations nothing more
and that is less and less possible ( i dont have the fun playing ttr i used to have in the past)
therefore for quite some time i play most of the time only people i know for long
and thats still fun...
      
Davidb9 - Mercurey
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Re:I'm sorry Fri, 19 November 2010 18:29
No conversation just for fun Razz
      
Truckerteller
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PM carbon copy Fri, 19 November 2010 22:43
Dear dea,

Thank you for your PM. Sorry for not replying earlier. I decided to take a 24 hour break from TTR because I was sure a lot of people would call me a mean, evil, destroyer of society.

I realize a lot of my post actually is related to you, which paradoxally shouldn't be the case, because you're clearly the most outspoken, the most realistic TD we've had. Similarly, it shouldn't be in this thread, as this whole episode is actually the only serious cheating issue in tourneys which reasonable people couldn't expect. Hogwarts Express, sure, Deveric, maybe, but this could happen to any team and it's a very very sad episode in TTR.

I certainly appreciate your openness, and your reply to tK. In my opinion, that is exactly the showing of true sportsmanship one would hope for. Angel's reaction annoyed me a bit, but I guess tK's has his manual and some can't handle that.

I'm trying to make a point more in general. Yes, I'm annoyed when you say Dennis/Monstarmaster deserves a second chance. No I don't think we should completely trust society. But that's my opinion, your opionion, Masimo's opinion or whoever wants to write something.

My problem is the naitivity. I trust a lot of top players, but certainly not all. Sorry, but a lot of players in the top 100 have done nothing or less than nothing to earn that trust. Second of all, my problem is my perception that those that try to make this community better place - those that try to weed out wrongdoers - are often met by people who call them flaming sword wavers, peace seekers. I don't like being called an unrealistic society destroyer when I write ONE post in 8000 games. I have a very decent idea about what's going on in games, and if I'm backed by others in my ideas ONE time in 8000 games, and I stick my neck out, I don't like it when people make ME look like the evil bastard. Similarly there are others (I do agree, to me, they seem less convincing and more outraged than myself, how arrogant of me) who try to do something about cheating, but I read very little support.

Also, I believe a lot of issues in the last 3 NC tournaments (all those I've played) could have been avoided, when TD's, captains and team members would have been more responsible. Why did Hogwarts play when he tried to get to nr 1 with his 2nd account, by playing his 3rd account ? Why did the whole New Jersey vs. France tread result into complete crap, ending in Hitler comparisons ? Why did Neven Subotic and his brother play ? Is it so hard for a TD to write a post: "Players A and B receive a warning, Hogwarts, Neven Subotic and such and such are NOT allowed to play, and if any French or New Jersey person writes anything else about this NOT in a PM, they will lose a game, followed by loss of the match and complete exclusion" ? I just don't get it.

I love this game, I truly like the community, but even though you think 99% of those around you are really nice, that doesn't mean you shouldn't lock your bike to keep thieves at bay.

Again, I DO NOT blame you for anything and I'm sorry for the implications, but yes, I think you've been a bit too trustworthy. I'm sorry for the horrible AT experience, it could have happened to anybody.

Best regards,
Trucker
      
GenuineFauxFarm
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re: DEA's summary Fri, 19 November 2010 23:07
a) We all agree that the flaw in the observation mode for hidden cards needs fixing. As a person with a degree in Computer Science, this sloppy execution offends me.

b) I think they could certainly execute a 'balcony' for displaying the viewers. The simple solution would be to not show exits. Once an entry is made, the exit is not visible to the players. In fact, it might be just as well to allow only other balcony residents to see each other and not bother the players with this. I wouldn't really want to have the distraction. But, that would also allow a balcony only chat mode. That could be very interesting to discuss the game with other viewers.

I have no strong attachment to this idea. Just throwing the idea out for discussion.

c) rather than letting people choose who to view. Make it random. I don't think I need to point out the possible advantages.
      
AT Ravage
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re: DEA's summary Sat, 20 November 2010 00:12
TD GenuineFauxFarm wrote on Fri, 19 November 2010 15:07

a) We all agree that the flaw in the observation mode for hidden cards needs fixing. As a person with a degree in Computer Science, this sloppy execution offends me.

b) I think they could certainly execute a 'balcony' for displaying the viewers. The simple solution would be to not show exits. Once an entry is made, the exit is not visible to the players. In fact, it might be just as well to allow only other balcony residents to see each other and not bother the players with this. I wouldn't really want to have the distraction. But, that would also allow a balcony only chat mode. That could be very interesting to discuss the game with other viewers.

I have no strong attachment to this idea. Just throwing the idea out for discussion.

c) rather than letting people choose who to view. Make it random. I don't think I need to point out the possible advantages.


I totally agree with you on the balcony idea for viewers, but as others mentioned it would be valid to have the capability to see who is viewing the game.

As far as viewing game options. I would personally like to see it stay random but. If an observer has the same IP range as one of the players the observer will view that persons hand rather than the highest ranked player. For example if I were a lower ranked person in a match I could not open another browser and view my opponents hand because I would only be able to view my hand and not my opponents. Just some food for thought.
      
dea1
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re: DEA's summary Sat, 20 November 2010 03:22
From the comments I get the feeling that I expressed my version C badly.

New try:
An observer shall be able to choose, whom he wants to watch - and will be able to do that, if and only if the chosen player allowed that.
Each player should be able to define his "watching status" (allow everyone, buddies only, nobody).

Example:
I play Mudda.
Mudda sets "buddies only", I set "everyone".
Now Mudda's buddies can watch him or decide they want to watch me.
Everyone can select me (regardless of whose rating is higher), if they try to select Mudda it won't work unless they are in his buddy list.

I think, that would be the perfect solution to protect yourself but still allow for (limited) watching in the way most people like to watch (seeing a game without knowing the ticks and color cards is absoletly useless to me).
If both players are on the careful side, they can still enable their friends/teammates to watch their games, while making sure that nobody else can.

I assume, that "buddies only" would be the most selected option if we had that feature.
Therefore, if the time DOW would need for the implementation of the "full version" (everybody can select his "watching status") is too much, I think we could live with just the "select player - feature", and the starting player selects "buddies only" for both.

Does that change your ideas?
      
Jac_
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re: DEA's summary Sat, 20 November 2010 09:09
Many good ideas.
Sorry Dea for your experience. A horrible one I am sure. But you are not responsible for his actions. Thanks for being open about it.

For Truckers post. 100 points and a sticker, I would say.
If the penalties and "punishments" for cheaters was more final, so no more tournaments, no more chances, there would be fewer cheaters. At least in tournaments.

Your suggestions are good. NO I don't want closed games, nor hidden cards, then I would not watch NC at all.

I have played NC since the beginning in 2005. I was lucky back then to help with some translations of the rules with the founder of this event. NC was supposed to be fun. Some people have made it an event to miss. Very sad.
      
JenAck
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re: DEA's summary Sat, 20 November 2010 09:21
in the BSW we see exactly who is watching..
maybe that's the solution?

or we make an NC Buddie (included all NC Players)
and set for Buddies only
and others who want to watch but not play need to register in a thread

but whether to exclude all of these actions Cheating?
I doubt it Sad
      
Nayeli
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re: DEA's summary Sat, 20 November 2010 18:23
Hi there,

@dea: thats the best (i)dea, I think.

@Jen: I think that would be the worst solution. For example, when u play dog and someone wants to peek he has to ask but u have to write /allowpeek yes or at least to press F5. Now imagine this in a NC game. Which means, players would be in the same room, they can talk to you and you get distracted all the time.

@Pammes: about a log...yes, I thought about it earlier too.

Take a look at the following log, there u can see every single step. And I think that would be great to get such a feature here too.

Two pairs of players work as teams to score the most points. An aim is to play out your cards as quickly as possible while making as many points as possible by taking tricks. You must select 3 cards which you will pass to the other players. The log will show u how easy cheating is. Of course sometimes u pass a card to your partner, in that case seqiro is, giving him probably a bomb (same in a gof game) that happens but sometimes u might think... hm, for my taste opponents have too many bombs. For example when set, players will be given an option after 8 cards have been dealt (prior to a further 6 to make the 14 in the hand). A Grand Tichu is worth +/-200 points, depending whether you go out first or not. And normally if you call GT your partner will give u his highest card to help ya.
I might have the highest single card (the dragon), the phoenix and 2 aces and I know I don't need more. I could tell my partner to give me a 2 because I already have 3.
Thats why a log can be very important.


http://www.tichuliga.de/logs/log4.php?game=seqiro%2Bggez44-N ayeli_%2BKrienchen-Fri-Nov-19-10-43-32

I would like what you all think about that option.






      
Sysyphus
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re: DEA's summary Sun, 21 November 2010 18:39
Ok, I'll give a word about all that.
We all agree that NC suffers from tons of dysfunctions and we can't continue like that. Truck is right by emphasizing the resistance to take some decisions.

1° Observation mode

I'd still advocate for open games only if DOW is implementing new features (there is some interesting stuff above), it would be nice to make true proposals from the whole community to give them some motivation.

We'd otherwise have to let some players play with hidden cards/hidden tix unfortunately. That'd mean the loss of interest for tons of players in watching games and in supporting their teams and that most of players would play for themselves, for their own ego. NC team spirit would disappear. Do we want teams to be just a sum of individuals ? Personally, I don't.

Like Stephan mentionned, I felt 2 days ago worried to play like i should, being the lower ranked player...and that's also a problem. Players that like blocking or playing quite a crazy way (think i'm part of them) would be quite an easy target. Ex : Dom had Van-FE and i discarded Van Mon. I took tons of time debating if i could block or not... (what is the proof that i had van mon in my starting combo ?), luckily i didn't need it.

2° Players offering proposals that didn't find any echo about some bugs / rules

a)Dom offered a rule about bot problems a few weeks ago.. He was right, toutoune could have lost the clash cause of a last turn loss of connection that cost him the win.


b) (here : I write as a Board representative) Community was angry with thekid rfad endless debate...
What happened ? Nothing... By doing nothing, the community of NC players let thekid do whatever he wanted and let him not respect the players.

About that case, we, players Reds, obviously disagree with Truck who doesn't want to come out in favour of either party.
On one hand, a player has a disrespectful behaviour towards hisopponent, NC and the community, is using psycho war and on the other hand, players of the same nationality are feeling offended...

As a board representative and in the names of the TGV, I sent then a request to the TD.

Here it is :

Here was our official request :



Considering what happened between thekid and RFAD, the members of the French teams consulted each other. We are now submitting a request, in the name of the French players. If you think you need to go through a vote from the Board, we're ok with it.


The Kid :

. is causing problems every year with the scheduling of his games (TEE, Kotay, suszifüsz, Sauvignon, RFAD...) putting pressure on players. We do think that too many players have suffered from this behaviour and from unequal treatments A decision needs then to be taken to put a final end to that.

. had surprisingly an easy schedule this week with Technikerin the week following the drama with RFAD (no reciprocity required, game scheduled by Sunday, Kid is not going at the beach...). We consider then that RFAD was treated a virulent way and that French players are suffering from an unequal treatment from the kid.

.dumped his score on purpose only before the game involving a French player, RFAD. He therefore considers that RFAD, and then the White TGV, is a cheater / are cheaters. Nothing similar happened with any other team. French players are then suffering from an unequal treatment.

. stated that most of Frenchies are cheaters by using second accounts. It is unacceptable to us too.


We are very affected and offended by the behaviour and the standpoints of thekid, as a captain and as a player, towards French players teams and towards the TTR community.
Some of us are tired of such a behaviour, after having strongly campaigned for the fun of the NC.

We are not discussing the ruling of the game between the Team USA and the White TGV nor the result of the clash. The other players from the USA team did not have, indeed, to be penalized.

However, we are submitting a request to you and/or the board to sanction thekid for his behaviour. By this request, we wish the fun of the NC would be back for French players. We also hope to find a peaceful atmosphere back for the community.




Thekid may be a very good player, we are nevertheless considering that we don't have to lose time nor fun because of recurring problems and bad behaviour.

At least, we request that thekid shall not be allowed to play against a French player anymore (for this NC and the further ones). Implying that he'd not be able to be part of a line-up versus any French team.

We're asking the TD to give a sanction to thekid : exclusion from this NC.
In case of no decision on your side, then we're asking for a board vote :

1) Does thekid's behaviour deserve a sanction ? YES / NO
2) Won't thekid be allowed to play against any French Teams from now on ? YES / NO





To preserve the community, we decided not to throw it...after being told we should offer stricter rules about scheduling...
Elric offered something about that. Once again, no echo.

Do you really want to be mentally harrassed to play ? Do you really to play at 6am ? Is that really a captain behaviour ?

c) The same player allowed himself to not end 2 matches of NC, and it doesn't seem to be a problem for the community.
Should we let/allow players to not play their games because they don't feel concerned any more (French players included) ?
Is that true respect towards NC ?

So, yes, to me, community has to move its butt for good, or we'll face the same crap every year.

[Updated on: Sun, 21 November 2010 18:41]

      
JenAck
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Re:I'm sorry Sun, 21 November 2010 19:13
@ Nay
ich machs jetzt auf deutsch..naja Embarassed

klar würde ein peek den Spieler sehr stören.
Ich meine auch viel mehr,dass die Zuschauer sehen wer alles mitguckt.
Ich hätte nämlich auch keine Freude wenn ich spiele und da immer wieder wer kommt oder geht.
Ausserdem mitreden müsste eh keiner können.

Ich weiss auch überhaut nicht was Informatiktechnisch alles machbar ist...es wäre mehr zur Kontrolle wer wo guckt
      
Jac_
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Re:I'm sorry Sun, 21 November 2010 19:33
The observation mode could be i.e. like on bridgebase.
Easy for the observers to talk to each other, but the players are not disturbed.

@ Sysy. Pity that no TD or any other instance stops tK from doing his warfare when playing NC. He has been doing the same thing over every year. Not only against the French but also others. There ARE PLAYERS who do not play NC (or TTR) any longer for the psycho war tK puts players through.

Vote on excluding players who do such things, as well as cheaters. Make very tough rules on punishment against a TEAM of a cheater and there will be less of them for sure.

Wonder how long NC will yet survive. Sad
      
**player245111
Senior Member

Posts: 341
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June 2006
Re:I'm sorry Mon, 22 November 2010 08:06
Some rumours make me sick ! I never cheat with Bubles or another player in NC and I always play closed in my game. I talk with some player who say to me that I'm a suspect, ok we look my game with wernerus and probably the other and you find a suspect account and report to dow if the information are exact, well I know the truth so its cool for me (but difficult rumours really hurt me)but I try to explain one thing ! Even if we have good conscience in this case, the rumours make me sick, i lose in NC it's because the other cheat or i play bad, I win I'm a suspect so I try to justify my block in the last game with Bubles, just before Dow say I'm not a cheater !

Bubles show me 5 turn before my block Vancouver is important he take it with the 3 grey

he take Helena Salt Lake

he take 1 or 2 blue open, so I think he can take the 6 blue maybe, but he take salt lake Denver

I take 5 white to phoenix for begin the block (he haven't white or enough loco, if i look his game i know that no ?)

After he take Denver oklaoma,

I block the 3 blue for santa fé !

the game before, I bluff Bubles in a miami Toronto and he block, Probably it's for that he show me the evident van-santa fe game after !

Néo very very SAD

ps : it's not Bubles that make such accusation, thx for that

[Updated on: Mon, 22 November 2010 08:18]

      
Davidb9 - Mercurey
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Re:I'm sorry Mon, 22 November 2010 21:35
Daedin is a cheater
Volley tom is a cheater
I'm sure because i'm the best player here and i lost against them in the lastest NC.
Mad Mad Very Happy
      
foudecoasters
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re: DEA's summary Tue, 23 November 2010 00:45

UP


Sysyphus - Madiran écrit le Sun, 21 November 2010 18:39

Ok, I'll give a word about all that.
We all agree that NC suffers from tons of dysfunctions and we can't continue like that. Truck is right by emphasizing the resistance to take some decisions.

1° Observation mode

I'd still advocate for open games only if DOW is implementing new features (there is some interesting stuff above), it would be nice to make true proposals from the whole community to give them some motivation.

We'd otherwise have to let some players play with hidden cards/hidden tix unfortunately. That'd mean the loss of interest for tons of players in watching games and in supporting their teams and that most of players would play for themselves, for their own ego. NC team spirit would disappear. Do we want teams to be just a sum of individuals ? Personally, I don't.

Like Stephan mentionned, I felt 2 days ago worried to play like i should, being the lower ranked player...and that's also a problem. Players that like blocking or playing quite a crazy way (think i'm part of them) would be quite an easy target. Ex : Dom had Van-FE and i discarded Van Mon. I took tons of time debating if i could block or not... (what is the proof that i had van mon in my starting combo ?), luckily i didn't need it.

2° Players offering proposals that didn't find any echo about some bugs / rules

a)Dom offered a rule about bot problems a few weeks ago.. He was right, toutoune could have lost the clash cause of a last turn loss of connection that cost him the win.


b) (here : I write as a Board representative) Community was angry with thekid rfad endless debate...
What happened ? Nothing... By doing nothing, the community of NC players let thekid do whatever he wanted and let him not respect the players.

About that case, we, players Reds, obviously disagree with Truck who doesn't want to come out in favour of either party.
On one hand, a player has a disrespectful behaviour towards hisopponent, NC and the community, is using psycho war and on the other hand, players of the same nationality are feeling offended...

As a board representative and in the names of the TGV, I sent then a request to the TD.

Here it is :

Here was our official request :



Considering what happened between thekid and RFAD, the members of the French teams consulted each other. We are now submitting a request, in the name of the French players. If you think you need to go through a vote from the Board, we're ok with it.


The Kid :

. is causing problems every year with the scheduling of his games (TEE, Kotay, suszifüsz, Sauvignon, RFAD...) putting pressure on players. We do think that too many players have suffered from this behaviour and from unequal treatments A decision needs then to be taken to put a final end to that.

. had surprisingly an easy schedule this week with Technikerin the week following the drama with RFAD (no reciprocity required, game scheduled by Sunday, Kid is not going at the beach...). We consider then that RFAD was treated a virulent way and that French players are suffering from an unequal treatment from the kid.

.dumped his score on purpose only before the game involving a French player, RFAD. He therefore considers that RFAD, and then the White TGV, is a cheater / are cheaters. Nothing similar happened with any other team. French players are then suffering from an unequal treatment.

. stated that most of Frenchies are cheaters by using second accounts. It is unacceptable to us too.


We are very affected and offended by the behaviour and the standpoints of thekid, as a captain and as a player, towards French players teams and towards the TTR community.
Some of us are tired of such a behaviour, after having strongly campaigned for the fun of the NC.

We are not discussing the ruling of the game between the Team USA and the White TGV nor the result of the clash. The other players from the USA team did not have, indeed, to be penalized.

However, we are submitting a request to you and/or the board to sanction thekid for his behaviour. By this request, we wish the fun of the NC would be back for French players. We also hope to find a peaceful atmosphere back for the community.




Thekid may be a very good player, we are nevertheless considering that we don't have to lose time nor fun because of recurring problems and bad behaviour.

At least, we request that thekid shall not be allowed to play against a French player anymore (for this NC and the further ones). Implying that he'd not be able to be part of a line-up versus any French team.

We're asking the TD to give a sanction to thekid : exclusion from this NC.
In case of no decision on your side, then we're asking for a board vote :

1) Does thekid's behaviour deserve a sanction ? YES / NO
2) Won't thekid be allowed to play against any French Teams from now on ? YES / NO





To preserve the community, we decided not to throw it...after being told we should offer stricter rules about scheduling...
Elric offered something about that. Once again, no echo.

Do you really want to be mentally harrassed to play ? Do you really to play at 6am ? Is that really a captain behaviour ?

c) The same player allowed himself to not end 2 matches of NC, and it doesn't seem to be a problem for the community.
Should we let/allow players to not play their games because they don't feel concerned any more (French players included) ?
Is that true respect towards NC ?

So, yes, to me, community has to move its butt for good, or we'll face the same crap every year.

      
blubes
Senior Member

Posts: 147
Registered:
April 2008
Re:I'm sorry Tue, 23 November 2010 01:10
hey neo,

re the van sf block - not a cheat imo - but if someone can please explain to me how to win a game involving van sf i would love it - i'm like 0-5 with or against that tix and i can't seem to get my order of operations (which spaces to play when) correct with it -

in our match at the point of that particualr block i was more or less mentally worn down having spent much of the match with that dreaded van sf tix or east coast junk or worse and was already defeated

cheers and don't let the accusations bother you,

hoping for a rematch in the nc later ...

blubes

      
**player245111
Senior Member

Posts: 341
Registered:
June 2006
Re:I'm sorry Tue, 23 November 2010 21:36
Many thanks Blubes for this post really !

Best regards
      
SYN Stephan1972
Senior Member

Posts: 306
Registered:
December 2006
re: DEA's summary Tue, 23 November 2010 21:56
AT_dea1 wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 02:22

From the comments I get the feeling that I expressed my version C badly.

New try:
An observer shall be able to choose, whom he wants to watch - and will be able to do that, if and only if the chosen player allowed that.
Each player should be able to define his "watching status" (allow everyone, buddies only, nobody).

Example:
I play Mudda.
Mudda sets "buddies only", I set "everyone".
Now Mudda's buddies can watch him or decide they want to watch me.
Everyone can select me (regardless of whose rating is higher), if they try to select Mudda it won't work unless they are in his buddy list.

I think, that would be the perfect solution to protect yourself but still allow for (limited) watching in the way most people like to watch (seeing a game without knowing the ticks and color cards is absoletly useless to me).
If both players are on the careful side, they can still enable their friends/teammates to watch their games, while making sure that nobody else can.

I assume, that "buddies only" would be the most selected option if we had that feature.
Therefore, if the time DOW would need for the implementation of the "full version" (everybody can select his "watching status") is too much, I think we could live with just the "select player - feature", and the starting player selects "buddies only" for both.

Does that change your ideas?


I think this should work ok - excellent idea. we should summarise the options, put it to a captain's board vote and then put a single clear proposal to DoW
      
AAA_Pammes
Senior Member

Posts: 421
Registered:
December 2004
re: DEA's summary Wed, 24 November 2010 13:36
hi blubes,

i won van-sf once or twice.
but unfortunately i can&acute;t remember how i did it..
Very Happy Twisted Evil Very Happy
      
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