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onyx puffin LOL
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FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Wed, 24 November 2010 15:28
This thread is a continued discussion started in FUN Tournament site. Thought we should leave the other site for recording scores.

Beginning note from other site: I think 1 ticket is not enough of a penalty for people not following rules on these variants. It needs to go to 2.

As happened often last year, calling a penalty hurts the player calling the penalty. Gee, how harmful is it to call a penalty which causes your opponent to have to take one ticket which they have time to complete and then beat you by having the extra ticket! Meanwhile I am drawing open on the pile and getting 5 singles at end of game so I cannot complete the game. IN regular 2 player, the locos make a difference in people going out easier, thus taking extra ticket is more tricky and so it happens later. But with that variant, one does not have loco luxury.

Maybe 1 ticket is fine in snake and perhaps 5 tix variants, but with the other 3, it really is not a penalty. This is especially true in draw open because that one is hard to watch while you are playing your game and figuring out your tracks. Meanwhile they get locos!. Also hard to know if 8+ means a person has 9, 10, or 11. So catching that one is tricky as well.

Maybe it is too late for this year for this rule change, but please put it in for next year.
      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Wed, 24 November 2010 15:29
Second note from other site: Dea's answer:

I think it depends, how you see this event.

Is it part of the fun to risk penalties?
Many ways -
a) the opponent doesn't notice and you get away with it
b) the penalty turns out to be not so bad for you after all (a bit like casino, isn't it?)
c) the win you achieve by violating the rules is so big that you don't care about your penalty (yes, you can "block" in snake )

I think, that's a big part of the fun.
The variants themselves are not sooooooo cool, but if you can legally be nasty, well, that's something you don't have in "normal" tournaments.

Seeing it that way, I'm quite happy with the rules as they are.
But of course you are right if one sees it differently.
What does everybody else think?
(besides, yes, it's too late for this year - but always worth discussing for the next)

[Updated on: Wed, 24 November 2010 15:36]

      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Wed, 24 November 2010 15:31
Third note from other site:
AT_dea1 wrote on Tue, 23 November 2010 17:25

@Onyx: I think it depends, how you see this event.
Is it part of the fun to risk penalties? (worth discussing for the next year)


@Dea & Hecki, First, yes I tend to be a rule keeper. And to me part of the Fun is to live within the rules of the FUN tournament, not take advantage of the other who is living within the rules. So my point follows part of what you say:
If Part of the fun is to risk penalties, then make them penalties.

Because in the open draw, if I know near the end I am going to pick up tix anyway on next turn, might as well take from pile when my colors are not out there, and could get locos. Heck, I only need to keep one ticket, and I probably have it made or can make one of them easy enough. But if I had to keep 2, then I might think longer about penalty of having to take tix. With only having to keep 1, 'penalty risk' is not enough.


Perhaps, and I submit this is true for games 8+, and Opendraw, it is not a penalty but an advantage. In 8+, big advantage to getting longer track points and thus more tickets made in less turns.
By the way, basically these advantage reasons were why we went to 2 tix penalty for no 5/6 game, because playing a 5/6 during the game was worth more than one ticket possibly missed, and the bonus fact: I complete my tickets if blocked out. I still think 2 may not be enough there, especially given that if one almost cheats there, they can get say 15 bonus plus completing a large ticket when blocked out of say LA-NY, so it becomes a 57 point swing. Better to do that, cause no way does one lose even 40 points in 2 tickets. (15 + 21 + not -21)

      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Wed, 24 November 2010 16:53
A Creative perspective to think about:

Commentator Rico: Well sports fans this has been quite some futbol game(soccer for you Americans listening). It has been a defensive masterpiece. We are getting late in the game, and it is still not known who may win, though by the defensive front, I would say Brazil looks highly favored here. But Uruguay, still has an outside chance.
Commentator Eduardo: Not sure how Uruguay can penetrate that defense. That Brazil goalie is set up so nothing can seem to get in his net.
Commentator Rico: Well Uruguay has managed to get a corner kick. They are lining up a set play. There is the kick, and whoa! Look! A Uruguay player has tackled the Brazil goalie as he was going to make a simple catch. And the ball goes in! It is a goal!!!!!!!!!
Commentator Eduardo: How can they do that? The goalie even looks hurt.
Commentator Rico: But wait? Brazil may call a penalty here. Yes indeed Brazil will call for a penalty.
Commentator Eduardo: So the goal will not count?
Commentator Rico: Oh no. The goal will count. Brazil now just can have the goalie kick the ball off.
Commentator Eduardo: But the goalie is hurt. And why is the ball being placed where the foul occurred?
Commentator Rico: Well, the goalie cannot walk all the way to the center. So he can still kick the ball a little bit from where he is.
Commentator Eduardo: But this seems to mean Uruguay can have an easier chance at getting another goal being that close to that goal?
Commentator Rico: Well, perhaps, but that is how the penalty rule goes here.

Okay I know this sounds farfatched, but is this not what we have here if the penalty rule is not really set up to be a penalty?

The idea, I thought, of a variant game was to play with some rule twists, and the penalties were in place in case of an: "Oops, I did not mean to do that." But if the penalties are not severe enough, the penalty is actually occurring to the player following the variants rule set-up.

[Updated on: Wed, 24 November 2010 16:55]

      
FLOP Hecki
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Wed, 24 November 2010 18:10
Just one point to make it clear for the other competitors:

You have to take 2 tix if you make a mistake in the no5/6-game. This is the actual rule. The one-ticket-rule just exists for the other variants.

I hope noone forgets this in the actual tournament. Laughing
      
dea1
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Wed, 24 November 2010 19:57
second thoughts ...

1) If we want to follow the original rules strictly, why have this penalty system at all?
You violate the rules = you lose the game. Period.
If you play something in a tournament you should be able to NOT violate rules inadvertently.

2)The rules statement
"... A playing of penalty-tactics (like making turns with the intension of breaking the rules) is ALLOWED ..."
indicates that it was not the writer's intension to have the penalties only for "accidents".
Guess how I got the idea?

3)To stay with football comparisons
A foul is something against the rules, correct?
There are penalties defined for it - named yellow and red.
It's quite normal that players commit fouls on purpose, trading in the penalty for an advantage (don't stop your opponent who's sure to score a goal and you're off the team, I guess).
Recent developments showed that these penalties might be inadequate (seen the final of the world championship?)
- I suggest we have them take 2 cards next year Laughing

Declaration of honour: Wink
I did not, don't and will never violate any rules - unless the rules themselves ask me to do it.
I will happily play onyx puffin in this tournament (and hope, he still does, too).
      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Wed, 24 November 2010 21:07
@ Dea, second thoughts:

you make a great point in regards to the rules statement: "... A playing of penalty-tactics (like making turns with the intension of breaking the rules) is ALLOWED ..."
indicates that it was not the writer's intension to have the penalties only for "accidents".


I had not noticed that in the rules, and glossed over it. Intent of that statement is to allow variant oddity. Obviously, the discussion here needs to be how to modify each variant game's penalty so variant games are able to remain within the spirit of that variant's game. I find this especially true in regards to last 3,(+8, Opendraw, and No 5/6) and the more i think it through various scenarios, the no5/6 really should be a 3 ticket penalty.

Oh, and I will play this year and next year, under whatever the rules are. I just need to know them better to follow them and play within them.

[Updated on: Wed, 24 November 2010 21:10]

      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sat, 27 November 2010 06:26
Okay, so I really enjoy this tournament. Let me begin with that statement so people understand I am not trying to be difficult. But now I have another rule question. And yes this did happen to me.
in 8+ no more, my opponent deliberately went above 10 to obtain enough blue for 5 blue to Miami. When I called penalty, he took the ticket, then next turn took 2 more cards. I said penalty again and he took another ticket. However I note in the rules it says:
Penalty: Draw (at least) 1 ticket the next turn (and of course then play a track in the turn after), if you have more than 10 color cards in your hand.

So since he did not play the track, but indeed picked up again to obtain the 5 blue necessary, what happens in such a situation?

And on a side note, both tickets obtained through the 'penalty' he easily completed, but that is a side matter.

[Updated on: Sat, 27 November 2010 06:28]

      
Knockando
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sat, 27 November 2010 09:15
onyx puffin AMD écrit le Sat, 27 November 2010 06:26

Okay, so I really enjoy this tournament. Let me begin with that statement so people understand I am not trying to be difficult. But now I have another rule question. And yes this did happen to me.
in 8+ no more, my opponent deliberately went above 10 to obtain enough blue for 5 blue to Miami. When I called penalty, he took the ticket, then next turn took 2 more cards. I said penalty again and he took another ticket. However I note in the rules it says:
Penalty: Draw (at least) 1 ticket the next turn (and of course then play a track in the turn after), if you have more than 10 color cards in your hand.

So since he did not play the track, but indeed picked up again to obtain the 5 blue necessary, what happens in such a situation?

And on a side note, both tickets obtained through the 'penalty' he easily completed, but that is a side matter.


For me, in that special case, he has to lose the game.
      
dea1
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sat, 27 November 2010 09:47
Don't think so ...

for me that's simply the next violation - draw ticks yet again in the next turn (as it happened).

Rule says: If you violate me - take ticks next turn.
Once you've done that, we are back to standard.

Reasons for losing the game are:
- Violate the rule and don't take the penalty (= don't take ticks immediately in next turn)
- Violate the rule when you cannot take the penalty any more (= in last turn)

To sketch up an extreme case:
Snake, your original snake is dead on both ends.
You still can ...
place a route anywhere on the board - draw ticks - place a route anywhere (if this one connects to your first violation it's still a violation) - draw ticks - place a route ... until the game ends.

Well, that's my interpretation - TD please confirm (or contradict)

[Updated on: Sat, 27 November 2010 09:49]

      
JenAck
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sat, 27 November 2010 14:34
I do not want a rule change.
But I write it in here.
It would be great if each group would play the 5 Fungames even as a multi Smile
      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sat, 27 November 2010 17:33
AT_dea1 wrote on Sat, 27 November 2010 03:47

Don't think so ...

for me that's simply the next violation - draw ticks yet again in the next turn (as it happened).

Rule says: If you violate me - take ticks next turn.
Once you've done that, we are back to standard.


OK, but dea is this a double infraction? Two rules broken, or because that portion of rules is in parenthesis, it is not rule but guideline? And if double infraction, does that mean two turns in a row, he should take tix, or must keep 2 tix?


Believe me, I am not looking for a change in the outcome of the match. It is what it is for this year. I am trying to get rules clarity for next year. (and perhaps into the future even this year on this violation.)

[Updated on: Sat, 27 November 2010 17:35]

      
LMAA-DN
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sat, 27 November 2010 17:44
I. 8++ no more rules

onyx puffin AMD schrieb am Sat, 27 November 2010 06:26

in 8+ no more, my opponent deliberately went above 10 to obtain enough blue for 5 blue to Miami. When I called penalty, he took the ticket, then next turn took 2 more cards. I said penalty again and he took another ticket. However I note in the rules it says:
Penalty: Draw (at least) 1 ticket the next turn (and of course then play a track in the turn after), if you have more than 10 color cards in your hand.

So since he did not play the track, but indeed picked up again to obtain the 5 blue necessary, what happens in such a situation?


OK, here the words of the rules are not chosen a clear way (like the snake rules were before dea made me aware of), my fault Embarassed and also in this case dea is right in her view of the rules, I will change the words to

"Penalty: If you have more than 10 color cards in your hand, draw (at least) 1 ticket the next turn (and of course then play a track in the turn after or otherwise this will be a reason for the next penalty, even taking more tix with more than 10 colour cards in your hand will be punished with a penalty)!"

AT_dea1 schrieb am Sat, 27 November 2010 09:47

that's simply the next violation - draw ticks yet again in the next turn (as it happened).


BUT: Your scenario shows a big problem - especially in 8+no more but also in the other variants, playing Fun as it was meant to be seems to be less effective as playing the rule-breaker strategy! I also think, we have to diversify the penalty rules - more about this under II

II. Penalty change

onyx puffin AMD schrieb am Tue, 23 November 2010 20:27

Dom, We need stronger Penalties!


If a player intends to take new tix anyway, breaking the rules before brings no real penalty...Ok onyx, I got your point, ticket taking does not have to be a a real punishment, but if we make it 2 instead of 1 tic as you propose, the problem still remains the same as the variants all are slow and players have time to fulfill the new tix, maybe not all...but still the penalty should be a punishment.

Last year when the tournament was played for the first time there were nearly only "real" Fun players that also often play multi fun games, so strategical rule breakings were not a big thing - but this year many new players participate - some of them rarely (or never) play multi fun games and so the "loophole (as it was meant to be)" of rule-breaker-tactics more and more gets a big point.

So, why don't we give the disadvantaged player the power of choice over the penalty?

My suggestion to leave a loophole on the one hand but also not to privilege rule-breakers too much on the other hand is changing the penalty system based on Pammes' proposal:

If player A breaks the rules, player B has the choice of the type (taking tix like in the old rules OR NO MORE TICKET-TAKING for A for the rest of this game - this might be a good punishment as well) and the time (instantly or later/at the end of this game) when A has to be penalized:

POSSIBLE SCENARIOS IN A SINGLE GAME THEN:

1) A breaks the rule, B says "penalty - take the tic/tix now", A takes a tic/tix next turn
2) A breaks the rule, B says "penalty - NO MORE TICKET-TAKING", A takes no more tix in this game - if A takes tix though, he loses the game instantly - if A breaks the rules again, he loses the game instantly
3) A breaks the rule, B says "penalty - but penalty later" - until B says what the penalty will be, A must not break the rules again, if A breaks the rules again until B has chosen the type and time of penalty, A loses the game instantly
3a) during the game/at the end of the game B says "penalty now: take the tic/tix", A takes a tic/tix next turn
3b) during the game/at the end of the game B says "penalty now: NO MORE TICKET-TAKING", A takes no more tix in this game - if A takes tix though, he loses the game instantly - if A breaks the rules again, he loses the game instantly


And maybe we generally say "only ONE rule-breaking per game for each player!"

Yes, this makes playing more complicated as there are more rules to know but now a rule-breaker does not know his penalty before and the other player still has the choice to make it a real penalty, what do you think? And, why don't we apply changed rules this year ? The tournament just rolls a week...


III. Another proposal:

With such a big number of players for many of them the tournament ends too soon if you don't reach top 2 spots. So what about playing a second "playoff" for all the Round Robin spots 3 and 4 (taking the same roster as for spots 1 and 2) - winner of this playoff will be "Little Fun Champion" as the winner of the "real" playoff will be "Big Fun Champ"...?

[Updated on: Sat, 27 November 2010 17:46]

      
Teddy1
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sat, 27 November 2010 18:34
Onyx .... why do you want to change the rules?


THIS IS ONLY FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN

greetings
Teddy
      
Knockando
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sat, 27 November 2010 19:06
Too complicated rules goes against fun.

Too much rule-breaking goes against fun.

DN said : And maybe we generally say "only ONE rule-breaking per game for each player!"

I think it's the best and more simple new rule to add for next year : we let possibility to make a mistake, we let possibility to catch again a bad beginning by one rule-breaking, but we keep the fun playing for everybody.
      
JenAck
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Mon, 29 November 2010 10:18
AGT-DN schrieb am Sat, 27 November 2010 17:44


III. Another proposal:

With such a big number of players for many of them the tournament ends too soon if you don't reach top 2 spots. So what about playing a second "playoff" for all the Round Robin spots 3 and 4 (taking the same roster as for spots 1 and 2) - winner of this playoff will be "Little Fun Champion" as the winner of the "real" playoff will be "Big Fun Champ"...?


sounds a great idea Smile
count me in if you make this work Smile
      
TIC wasdenn
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Mon, 29 November 2010 13:37
Maybe I am prejudiced because I am the evil guy breaking the rules two times in a row against Onyx... (which has been perfectly "legal" and within the spirit of the game in my view, see also dea's post)

- Playing with "rule breaking tactics" is FUN and can influence the outcome of the game, which possibility is in the intention of the tournament rules as I see them. And it is open for both sides, nothing unfair here.

So do not punish it severly, eg disqualification on the 2nd breaking is much too much.

In my opinion the current rules do not have to be changed.

- If we want to increase the penalty, however, the proposed "take 2 tickets in game type 1-4 and 3 tickets in type no5/6" would be enough. How big is the chance to get 2 or even 3 tics which suit you? Mostly I am happy if I can find 1. So in most cases this will be a real penalty, and in some rare cases luck will be on the fiend side. Fine!

- Doms ideas with delayed action are interesting, adding more complexities, but are in fact giving the conforming player too much control in my view. E.g. it would be a tremendous advantage letting the opponent draw at the end of the game or not, depending on who would or could win. I don't think adding more possibilities to win the game outside "normal play", i.e. new "loop holes" as Dom put it, is really the intention.

- For new rules taking effect I would wait til after the group phase or the next year.

Just my 2 or 3 cents

wd

P.S.: "rule breaking tactics" add to the depth of otherwise rather dull variants, thus bring more fun. Objections are welcome Smile
      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Mon, 29 November 2010 15:52
Personally, I loved wasdenn's post. Again, my point is wasdenn played within the rules as set-up currently. No fault there to wasdenn. To me though the rule needs clarity. That was my point. Rules clarity is really the only point in this thread. For next year, let us get rules as clear as possible. (we did this with Nation's Cup during it's first years.)

- Playing with "rule breaking tactics" is FUN and can influence the outcome of the game.

This point being made by many is important. I will agree. So question is: Are the penalties correct enough for what we want into the future (next year!)? I want a penalty that is a penalty. I feel penalty should be: keep 2 tix and not only one.

My reason is simple: If I am set-up to follow the rules and spirit of the FUN game in the format being played, I do not think I should be punished for my being creative enough to find a way to win with the restrictive rules. So when one gets zapped by a deliberate break of the rules, going contrary to the spirit of that game, there should be a penalty that is a penalty, not in effect an additional bonus to the rule breaker. For when the rule is broken they are already getting a bonus in points by breaking the rule. Something needs to neutralize that bonus, and having to keep one ticket is not enough. (Chance of hitting 1 ticket along your route is very high, especially early enough in the game! Chance of 2 tickets is not so much.)

But believe me: if this does not change for next year, I am fine with that too. I just believe: Must keep 2 tix, puts the 5 games back in check, and within the spirit of the variant.

[Updated on: Tue, 30 November 2010 02:24]

      
Pifbat69
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Mon, 06 December 2010 10:37
Hello all FUN's Gamers,

In 1rst, Im sorry for my poor english but I want to give my impressions about " Penalty ", based on my little experience ( 1rst Fun competition this year ).

NO 5 / NO 6 :
During a training with another player, I realize a perfect block on La ( He had to connect to NY ). But for do that, I'll realize only little connection with 2/ 3 wagons, I break my road... When I saw he was very block, Ithink it's good for me. Surprize, intentionnely, he play 6 black... With that, he can connect La / Ny, had 15 points ( when my better is 7 ), take the road ( + 10 ). Penalty ? He draw tix,not 2 but 3 .... because he took La / Chi and 2 other on his road.

Sometimes, we do some breaking rules ( forgetting you are on FUN : especially on " open draw " because not usual ).
But here, it is known...

Not sure than drawing 2 tix is the good penalty in this case, because : 15 points / road when you block for other player ( + 10 points )....
So perhaps we have to find a more dissuasive penalty in this case...

Anyway, it's very fun to play this tournament; thx to all the players for nice games.

Have a good day,
Pifbat
      
SMP Ishamael
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Mon, 06 December 2010 14:39
Hi,

Here are my 2 cents about the subject after having played my tourney games (all without any penalty btw, and only one where I considered taking one: in no 5/6, in a similar situation as described above, which would have been very good for me, but I simply didn't have the colors for the 5 or 6 track).

It is good to realize that whatever a penalty will be set to, if a player intentionally takes that penalty, he considers the penalty to be less damaging than not playing it. So from some point of view, the penalty can be deemed not strong enough.

Of course one could include the penalties somehow as part of the rule set, like some advocated, but to me penalties as part of the rule set seems to change the intended nature of the game. Analogy to chess: what if an illegal move was allowed when you had to give up your queen. This would change the game quite a lot I think and completely unnecessary (I don't think chess would be more interesting that way, just more confusing).

The key thing about the penalties seems to be intentional or by accident. I think in the game variants where an accidental mistake is very unlikely to happen, it should lead to a loss. This makes things much easier. I think this should apply both for 'Snake' and 'No 5/6' (and perhaps 'open draw').

In the variants '8+nono' and '5+tix' a mistake by accident could in principle happen and I think most agree that a loss is also too harsh in such cases. ('open draw' is a bit in between for me, do people take from the pile by mistake?)

One last point, I suggest the penalty rule in general could be improved by changing from 'draw at least x tics' to 'draw exactly x tics' to prevent a punished player from getting a big advantage out of his mistake.

Cheers, Ishamael
      
LMAA-DN
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Mon, 10 January 2011 21:19
I think we should make a poll after this year's tournament to decide upon how the rules can be sharpened...

In my match with onyx we both came to the point that blocking on purpose (with a foul) during the snake game is not what we see as "FUN" and should be punished with an immediate defeat of the game [you see your opp has big tix, well: just block him NY/LA/Mia....one tic to draw is not big of a punishment.... Shocked ]
      
Sysyphus
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sun, 06 November 2011 18:02
Hi guys,

Knock is interested to take over the tourney and keep it alive and i'm ok to help him since he's (wrongly) doubting his English skills.

And everybody who wants to help is most welcome, by discussing the rules or on ticki where Knock is ok to assume most of the work.


1) This tourney has to remain low-maintenance : it's FUN !
Players who are not accepting the fun part are not very welcome, we really don't need to have this tourney won off-stage.

You guys are making the tourney funner or less fun that it could be, I'd rather see the funnest side of you Smile.

2) We have 3 weeks to close that discussion on the rules.

a) keep it same
b) stronger penalties
c) one rule-breaker per game ?

I think wasdenn's post makes sense and sum-up my point of view.


To find a compromise between rule-breaking lovers and opponents, I also liked Ishamael's idea :One last point, I suggest the penalty rule in general could be improved by changing from 'draw at least x tics' to 'draw exactly x tics' to prevent a punished player from getting a big advantage out of his mistake.

3) Last year's tourney was too long in my opinion. We'll try to come up with a lightened overall program sprinkled with a good dose of fun for everybody.

4) Ommie is ready to defend her title, I'm first on the list to kick her butt!

[Updated on: Sun, 06 November 2011 18:05]

      
Knockando
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Mon, 14 November 2011 08:42
My opinion about the rules and penalties, taking ideas from last year discussion :

1st, I think that too complicated rules are going against fun.

2d : I think that breaking rules can be fun only if your opponent can do the same (i.e. blocking snake isn't fun)
Games has to be fun for both players.

Snake : I think you can't break the rules unintentionnaly, so loss of the game, or at least draw 2 tixs (3 tixs ?), because it's too easy to block big tixs at a point that opponent can't do anything and can't prevent from.

5 tixs mini : no really problem on this game, draw 1 ticket (and only one) is fine.

8+no more : it's always very hard to be sure how many cards opponent has. I think we can say that when a player have 9 or 10 cards, he has to play (or draw tixs). So, when you see 8+, you are sure that your opponent HAVE TO lay before taking new cards. It isn't fun to always count and note if you opponent have 6, 7, 8 cards...And no change for penalties (and in all variants , if penalty isn't taken in the very next turn , the game has to be lost)

Draw open : no really problem on this game, draw 1 ticket (and only one) is fine.

no5no6 : many possibilities here...My opinion is no change, except "take 2 and only 2 tixs".
      
Sysyphus
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Thu, 17 November 2011 19:33
If other players can voice up their opinions before the tourney, it'd help to avoid complaints afterwards.

It'd be better to find a common ground between all the participants...otherwise Knock and I will decide upon the rules according to our proper view of fun tourney, and according to the formulated opinions.
      
Sysyphus
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Thu, 17 November 2011 20:54
About snake:

I'd favour a loss for an intentional block and keep a ticket pick-up for someone who lays a track away from his snake by mistake.


For the rest, Knockando's post sums up my view of the fun too.

      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Thu, 17 November 2011 21:15
So please before the tournament, let us get these rules established for knock and Sysy:
I am in agreement with knock's statements here. And for snake penalty, indeed, perhaps penalty should be
must take tickets and keep all 3. Must take all 3 tickets would help alleviate the person who claims an oops, when other may wonder, "really was it an oops?" (or else immediate loss is a solution, but that seems maybe harsh in case it really was an oops.)

I will note the idea of a penalty is to be a penalty, and we do need to keep the nature of FUN in the fun tournament. The question of FUN always centered on just what constituted someone's fun, playing by rules established or being a little law breaker to see what one could get away with.)

Knockando - Apremont wrote on Mon, 14 November 2011 02:42

My opinion about the rules and penalties, taking ideas from last year discussion :

1st, I think that too complicated rules are going against fun.

2d : I think that breaking rules can be fun only if your opponent can do the same (i.e. blocking snake isn't fun)
Games has to be fun for both players.

Snake : I think you can't break the rules unintentionnaly, so loss of the game, or at least draw 2 tixs (3 tixs ?), because it's too easy to block big tixs at a point that opponent can't do anything and can't prevent from.

5 tixs mini : no really problem on this game, draw 1 ticket (and only one) is fine.

8+no more : it's always very hard to be sure how many cards opponent has. I think we can say that when a player have 9 or 10 cards, he has to play (or draw tixs). So, when you see 8+, you are sure that your opponent HAVE TO lay before taking new cards. It isn't fun to always count and note if you opponent have 6, 7, 8 cards...And no change for penalties (and in all variants , if penalty isn't taken in the very next turn , the game has to be lost)

Draw open: no really problem on this game, draw 1 ticket (and only one) is fine.

no5no6 : many possibilities here...My opinion is no change, except "take 2 and only 2 tixs".

[Updated on: Thu, 17 November 2011 21:17]

      
dea1
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sat, 19 November 2011 13:23
Suggestion:
Start the new rules with a clear statement about the desired etiquette for the event.

1) Is it perfectly OK to violate a rule intentionally if you are willing to take the penalty?

2) Or is it considered an ethical NoGo to violate the rules on purpose?

My impression is, that most participants would prefer #2.
If that's the case, say so clearly, or you'll have the same discussions again, whatever the new penalties are.
If that's the case, I still think there's no need to define any penalties and it could be very simple ...

dea1 schrieb am Wed, 24 November 2010 19:57

second thoughts ...

1) If we want to follow the original rules strictly, why have this penalty system at all?
You violate the rules = you lose the game. Period.
If you play something in a tournament you should be able to NOT violate rules inadvertently.


Do you really think somebody plays 6 blacks "by accident" in no 5/6?
In case you really believe that your opponent violated a rule inadvertently you can still accept it or offer restart (just as you can - but don't have to - offer restart if your opponent lost connection in a League game and the bot did something stupid).
If you like a special penalty for Sysy, Toutoune may have an idea Laughing
      
Sysyphus
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sat, 19 November 2011 17:41
Well...

If it'd be only me, i'd allow the intentional breaking of the rules... How weird coming from me ? Twisted Evil
The only game where a block should be a NoGo is snake...


For the rest, rules of last year were perfect in my opinion since it's supposed to be fun...


1) To keep Dom's spirit of the game.

2) Nothing better for me than laying a 6 and kill hecki with 13 tix in 5tix+...
Nothing better for me to have 13 cards in hand in 8+nono without being caught...


3) It's Fun ! I have more fun losing with someone fooling me than winning by the rules here.
We should just simplify the simplify the penalty and make it same for all the games. Therefore no confusion.
Either "draw tickets" either "draw 1 and only one".





[Updated on: Sat, 19 November 2011 17:44]

      
onyx puffin LOL
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sun, 20 November 2011 06:35
dea1 wrote on Sat, 19 November 2011 07:23

Suggestion:
Start the new rules with a clear statement about the desired etiquette for the event.

Do you really think somebody plays 6 blacks "by accident" in no 5/6?



sysyphus wrote on Sat, 19 November 2011 07:23


If it'd be only me, i'd allow the intentional breaking of the rules... How weird coming from me ? Twisted Evil
The only game where a block should be a NoGo is snake...

For the rest, rules of last year were perfect in my opinion since it's supposed to be fun...

1) To keep Dom's spirit of the game.


My whole point has been and continues to be: MAKE THE PENALTIES BE PENALTIES. No problem with Fun element of being a rule breaker as it adds strategy. But part of strategy needs to be that the rule keeper is not penalized by easy advantage for rule breaker.

Keeping spirit of the game as designed by Dom is key. So question is, are penalties correct from last year for each of the 5?
Probably they are with the exception of what do we want as penalty in snake?
snake: Must take 2 tix or direct loss?
Also, when penalty called, the player must do penalty at that point. is that correct?

Perhaps knock wants a vote of signed in players on a new thread?

[Updated on: Sun, 20 November 2011 06:39]

      
Sysyphus
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Sun, 20 November 2011 07:47
As a side note, last year, 3 of the 4 players that reached semi-finals were not rules-breakers... Ommie (winner), Knockando(finalist) and Patterson.

Evil players like dea, Angel... well... Austrians, toutoune, Sysy and Hecki failed (true, they killed each other Laughing ). And the Mr Cleans, Knockando and Ommie, sprayed all the bugs...
A vote from the players is indeed a solution that we had in mind. But Knock has been busy the last couple days due to personal matters. We'll set that up.
      
JenAck
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Mon, 21 November 2011 17:38
no 5/6

i have port-phö and van-sf
my opponent close 4 green,and 3 lila (hel-slc)
so i have no much options..

i can play a 6er and draw two tixs..
but if we chance the rules means i can still forget this two tixs.

i dont unterstand why we need always to chance the rules because of one or two players..

its a fun tournament and i think i should be allowed go for a penalty..
if one play 4 or 5 6er its different i think..
sorry for me strange english Wink
      
Knockando
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Fri, 25 November 2011 08:36
Hi all,

Here are the agreed changes of penalties after discussions.

I will post later a change of rules for 8+ no more, to return to the original idea of the game and simplify the application of the rules

Cool SPECIAL RULES FOR THE VARIANTS:


SNAKE:
While not common in 2p, yes, this is snake - you are only allowed to build one continuous track (like in mobile game snake), extension is possible on both endings.
Snake as "in one single track snake", in other words if the snake bites it's tail you may continue ANYWHERE(!) from that circle (same with double-circle or more circles).
Counting as usual, unrated.
Penalty: Draw (at least) 1 ticket next turn, if you lay a track not connected to your snake rightly - play on with your initial snake.
Penalty: Draw 2 (in words: two and only two) tickets THE VERY NEXT turn (in other words draw two of the three offered tix), , if you lay a track not connected to your snake rightly - play on with your initial snake.
5 TIX MIN:
Draw tickets till you got at least 5, then and only then go ahead and take colors or lay tracks.
Counting as usual, unrated.
Penalty: Draw (at least) 1 ticket more, if you start laying tracks or taking color cards before you have 5 tix.
Penalty: Draw 1 (and only 1) ticket more, if you start laying tracks or taking color cards before you have 5 tix.
8+ NO MORE:
The number of color cards you have is limited to 10 for all the game.
As soon as you have 10 color cards, you must lay a track (or draw for tickets) in the next turn, if you have 9 color cards, you only can draw an open loko or you must lay a track (or draw for tickets)
In other words if you already have 10 you are NOT allowed to draw color cards (if you have 9 only an open loko)!
Counting as usual, unrated.
Penalty: Draw (at least) 1 ticket the next turn (and of course then play a track in the turn after), if you have more than 10 color cards in your hand.
Penalty: Draw (1 and only 1) ticket the next turn (and of course then play a track in the turn after), if you have more than 10 color cards in your hand.
DRAW OPEN:
You may ONLY draw open colors, the stack is NOT an option throughout the whole game.
Watch out, you need to concentrate to not ever take from the stack!
Counting as usual, unrated.
Penalty: Draw (at least) 1 ticket next turn, if you draw from the stack.
Penalty: Draw (1 and only 1) ticket next turn, if you draw from the stack.
NO 5 OR 6:
You are NOT allowed to lay 5er or 6er tracks the whole game.
Counting as usual, unrated.
Penalty: Draw (at least) 2 (in words: TWO) tickets THE VERY NEXT turn (in other words draw at least two of the three offered tix), if you lay a 5er or 6er track (this has to be a penalty Wink). The track points you get by wrongly played 5er or 6er track count!
Penalty: Draw 2 (in words: two and only two) tickets THE VERY NEXT turn (in other words draw two of the three offered tix), if you lay a 5er or 6er track (this has to be a penalty Wink). The track points you get by wrongly played 5er or 6er track count!
SPECIAL CASE: If your opponent closes the game and you take a 5er or 6er track in your very last turn (with no chance to take tix in the next turn as penalty) you lose the game, irrespective of the points of this game, if your opponent says "penalty" before he takes his last turn!

For all variants : if you don't take your penalty the very next turn, you lose the game.
      
Knockando
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Fri, 25 November 2011 08:45
Change of rules for 8+no more, to return to the original idea of the game and simplify the application of the rules (you don't have to always count your opponent's cards, only to watch the number : if you see "8+", he has to lay a track or draw for tickets)

Edited because of a mistake, sorry...

8+ NO MORE:
The number of color cards you have is limited to 10 for all the game.
As soon as your opponent see "8+", (so when you have 9 or 10 color cards), you must lay a track (or draw for tickets) in the next turn. So, if you have 8 cards, you can pick what you want, but if you have 9 cards, you ARE NOT ALLOWED to pick anything
Counting as usual, unrated.
Penalty: Draw 1 (and only 1) ticket the next turn (and of course then play a track in the turn after), if you have picked one or 2 cards when you already had 8+ cards.

[Updated on: Sat, 26 November 2011 01:24]

      
toutoune - Morgon
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Thu, 01 December 2011 18:16
my 2 cents for next year:

the no5er/6er is the most attractive penalty even with 2 tickets
as wasdenn wrote,I think take the 3 tix would be more accurate.

and other type of possible penalty: if you break a rule, you can't close the game if you don't have 48, 50, 52 cards on the map and in your hand. I would say 2 additionnal cards over 46 for each penalty on game 1-4, and 4 additionnal cards for game 5.
It would allow the other player to have more time to fill tickets, draw some new, take more points, ...
And this would avoid the strategy: "I think I need new ticktets to win, so I will break the rule to get some new(s)"
      
MaximouR - Ginglet
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Fri, 16 December 2011 11:47
Hi,

What about a player who stops game in snake and for the last turn lays a 1 or 2 road out of his snake ?
Don't seen yet this case but it's a question for me.

Have many fun
      
Knockando
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Re:FUN tournament - Penalty discussion for next Year Fri, 16 December 2011 14:03
If it isn't the last turn : penalty.
If you break the rules in your last turn, with no possibility to take a penalty, you have lost the game.

[Updated on: Fri, 16 December 2011 14:03]

      
    
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