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Aussie_Digger
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CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sat, 10 March 2012 01:19
Would just like to get some clarification on how the first turn works for the British forces.

In the briefing it states – Take 6 command cards – you move first – You may play twice on the first turn.
So if the British play plays twice on the first turn, they would play a command card take actions, then play another command card (so down to 4 cards as you only draw cards at the end of your turn) and wouldn’t be able to take action with the units ordered with the first card as units can only be ordered once in a turn.

Then once they have finished they draw a new command card, so if the British player decides to play twice on the first turn they then play with 5 command cards for the rest of the scenario, as you draw one card at the end of your turn.

Would this be the correct way to play the start of this scenario?
      
Clexton27
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sat, 10 March 2012 01:22
I played it that you take a full turn and draw a card and then take another full turn again.

If you have "Their Finest Hour" and "Counterattack" you could do some real damage before the Axis get out of the gate.
      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sat, 10 March 2012 01:46
stevens wrote on Sat, 10 March 2012 09:52

I played it that you take a full turn and draw a card and then take another full turn again.
.


The rules in the breifing state that you may play twice in your FIRST turn though, not take 2 turns before your opponent.

So once you draw a card that would be the end of your first turn as you draw cards at the end of a turn.
      
bdgza
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sat, 10 March 2012 11:12
stevens wrote on Sat, 10 March 2012 01:22

I played it that you take a full turn and draw a card and then take another full turn again.


I interpreted it the same way.
      
tank commander
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sat, 10 March 2012 12:08
stevens wrote on Fri, 09 March 2012 19:22

If you have "Their Finest Hour" and "Counterattack" you could do some real damage before the Axis get out of the gate.


"Counterattack"? How could the Brits use that card before the Japanese had a chance to play a card?

By the way, in spite of the confusing wording in the briefing I would agree that the Brits would play 2 full turns to start the scenario.
      
Clexton27
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sat, 10 March 2012 12:41
It's obvious by the different ways we played this that there will need to be some official ruling. So I will mark this thread to appear in the Campaaign Book #2 Errata.

I guess until such time as we have an OFFICIAL ruling, we just agreee with our opponent as to the best way to proceed.
      
yangtze
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sat, 10 March 2012 22:58
Yes, apologies, it could be clearer! The first interpretation outlined in this thread by Aussie-Digger is a little harsh on the Aussies and may impact scenario balance. The second interpretation outlined by Stevens works fine, though is marginally more generous towards the Aussies than intended.

We had the Aussie player play two of their 6 cards in succession, with no restriction on units available to be ordered with the second card, and finally take 2 cards to replenish their hand at the end of their turn. The British hand size is 6.
      
Clexton27
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sat, 10 March 2012 23:27
yangtze wrote on Sat, 10 March 2012 16:58

Yes, apologies, it could be clearer! The first interpretation outlined in this thread by Aussie-Digger is a little harsh on the Aussies and may impact scenario balance. The second interpretation outlined by Stevens works fine, though is marginally more generous towards the Aussies than intended.

We had the Aussie player play two of their 6 cards in succession, with no restriction on units available to be ordered with the second card, and finally take 2 cards to replenish their hand at the end of their turn. The British hand size is 6.


Is it permissable to play the COUNTERATTACK card against your own first card if you are Allies?

[Updated on: Sat, 10 March 2012 23:28]

      
yangtze
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sat, 10 March 2012 23:47
I would say no, on the basis that the spirit of the Counterattack card is that it counters enemy action. Since there is no enemy action prior to the ambush I don't think play of Counterattack as the second Allied card can be supported. But nice try! Very Happy
      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 08:50
Ok well we played the way I outlined in the first post, it seem to make sense as the Aussies were able to destroy the bridge and ambush the road before japan could take their turn. Then the Aussies were left with 5 cards (as you draw 1 at the end of their turn)

I think the special rules section in this scenario needs to give more details on how to treat the first turn if my post was the incorect way to play as how we played took into account the special rule for the first turn aswell as the Memoir 44 rules. So if you are able to order units more than once in the turn and draw 2 cards at the end of the turn this needs to be outlined as it controdicts the normal rules of Mem44
      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 09:01
Also in our game the way we played Japan was wiped, the Aussie blew the bridge, and all 4 ambush units were ordered with an assault card they took out 2 units. Japan managed to take out one of the 2 figure units then the Aussies took out another units and decided to try and exit 2 ambush units from the board which they did, game lasted around 6 turns aussies 5 Japan 1. So we didnt find this way of playing harsh at all for the Aussie. If anything our way of playing still gave the Aussies a good head start, if the Aussies were able to order their ambush units 2 times in a turn the game might just last 2 or 3 turns and i dont see how Japan would have a chance unless Aussies were very unlucky with their cards and die rolls.
      
bdgza
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 09:49
stevens wrote on Sat, 10 March 2012 23:27

yangtze wrote on Sat, 10 March 2012 16:58

Yes, apologies, it could be clearer! The first interpretation outlined in this thread by Aussie-Digger is a little harsh on the Aussies and may impact scenario balance. The second interpretation outlined by Stevens works fine, though is marginally more generous towards the Aussies than intended.

We had the Aussie player play two of their 6 cards in succession, with no restriction on units available to be ordered with the second card, and finally take 2 cards to replenish their hand at the end of their turn. The British hand size is 6.


Is it permissable to play the COUNTERATTACK card against your own first card if you are Allies?


No.

You play 2 turns (including drawing a new card each time), but you can't counterattack yourself.
      
deemao
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 10:04
Little bit strange that in CB1 is similar rule, but there is clearly said that French player can play 2 turns before first turn of Germans (if he won previous battle). It's in first campaign of Unternehmen Fall Gelb.
      
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 10:08
bdgza wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 18:19



No.

You play 2 turns (including drawing a new card each time), but you can't counterattack yourself.


Thats not what Yangtze posted, (also the rule says you may play twice on ur first turn)

      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 10:11
deemao wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 18:34

Little bit strange that in CB1 is similar rule, but there is clearly said that French player can play 2 turns before first turn of Germans (if he won previous battle). It's in first campaign of Unternehmen Fall Gelb.


I remeber playing that one, that is why I played this scenrio the way outline in my first post. (as it takes into account the basic rules of mem44)
      
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 10:20
yangtze wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 08:17

I would say no, on the basis that the spirit of the Counterattack card is that it counters enemy action. Since there is no enemy action prior to the ambush I don't think play of Counterattack as the second Allied card can be supported. But nice try! Very Happy


Also the card its self dosnt allow that anyway as the first sentence says "issue the same order just played by your opponent"
      
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 12:44
I'm not overly familiar with the Fall Gelb campaign, and it might well be better to have a standardised 'Ambush' rule if scenarios begin that way. Having said that, such a rule might need to be varied anyway depending on historical and game balance considerations. Ultimately, I don't see much problem playing it as per the Fall Gelb campaign scenario. Most times this is unlikely to result in a significant advantage for the Allied player.

With respect to Aussie Digger, the scenario is nicely balanced when played as intended. The ambush detachments have only 2 figures each and are very vulnerable once the ambush is over. When I play the Japanese, I try to rush the lead Japanese elements back along the road towards the bridge to support the ambush survivors and hunt down the ambushers. Maybe one or two of those lead units head into the jungle to cut off the ambushers' retreat to the exit hex. The Japanese engineers can cross and help out too, and quite quickly if the Allied player neglects to blow the bridge. Remember also that the British will lose a tempo blowing the bridge, but I don't believe they can afford not to.

Once you've stabilised the centre then concentrate on repairing the bridge, if necessary, and getting those tanks across before the Aussie special forces start causing trouble. Do the tanks get involved in combat supporting the infantry? But the terrain is poor... Or do they blast down the road asap and try to get off-board at the exit hex?

The Aussie special forces also have a key decision to make. Do they go towards Tampin, assuming the bridge is blown, to harry the tanks there? But maybe they'll get picked off at long range in the jungle, or overrun if they come out into the open? Or maybe the tanks will leave them behind if the bridge is never blown or repaired quickly? Or do they cross the Sungai Gemencheh and use the terrain in the centre to get closer to the tanks, and/or cover the retreat of the ambush detachments, and/or pick off the ambush survivors, and/or help defend the road exit hex? But it will take them more time to get there!

The Japanese player will go behind early on for sure, but if they play carefully and try to regroup their forces in the centre, and I believe that is their best strategy, and remember their Imperial Japanese Army special rules, then this scenario can be extended over time and very tense. If, however, they play their forces as three unrelated groups in three separate battlefield sections then I do believe they will lose.
      
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 13:03
Aussie_Digger wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 03:50

So if you are able to order units more than once in the turn and draw 2 cards at the end of the turn this needs to be outlined as it controdicts the normal rules of Mem44


The Allied player is really taking 2 turns to start the game here - the only difference is that he is not drawing a card to replace the first one played until after he has played out the actions of the second card. I have made a post it note to that effect and placed it in my CB 2 book. I am sure this will make it into the FAQ.
      
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 13:44
tank commander wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 21:33

Aussie_Digger wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 03:50

So if you are able to order units more than once in the turn and draw 2 cards at the end of the turn this needs to be outlined as it controdicts the normal rules of Mem44


The Allied player is really taking 2 turns to start the game here - the only difference is that he is not drawing a card to replace the first one played until after he has played out the actions of the second card. I have made a post it note to that effect and placed it in my CB 2 book. I am sure this will make it into the FAQ.


Im just going off the rule as written it says you may play twice on your FIRST turn. So therefor you can't play 2 turns.
Maybe the FAQ should just replace "you may play twice on your first turn" to "you may take 2 turns before your opponent" then it would get rid of the other core mem44 rules that come into play with with how the current special rule is and therefor not having to explaine that you can/cant do certain things that the normal rules don't or do allow.

Maybe iv just been playing to much combat commander lately, as the game is all about applying the rules as writen, which is what i tried to do in this case.

Anyway, I loved playing this campagine was a blast
      
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 13:54
Aussie_Digger wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 08:44

tank commander wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 21:33

Aussie_Digger wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 03:50

So if you are able to order units more than once in the turn and draw 2 cards at the end of the turn this needs to be outlined as it controdicts the normal rules of Mem44


The Allied player is really taking 2 turns to start the game here - the only difference is that he is not drawing a card to replace the first one played until after he has played out the actions of the second card. I have made a post it note to that effect and placed it in my CB 2 book. I am sure this will make it into the FAQ.


Im just going off the rule as written it says you may play twice on your FIRST turn. So therefor you can't play 2 turns.
Maybe the FAQ should just replace "you may play twice on your first turn" to "you may take 2 turns before your opponent" then it would get rid of the other core mem44 rules that come into play with with how the current special rule is and therefor not having to explaine that you can/cant do certain things that the normal rules don't or do allow.

Maybe iv just been playing to much combat commander lately, as the game is all about applying the rules as writen, which is what i tried to do in this case.

Anyway, I loved playing this campagine was a blast


I understand your stance here. I also play with the RAW.

But you can find many instances where an official special rule (usually in a scenario's special notes) that overrides another official rule.

My favorite is a unit ordered by BEL - such a unit is able to ignore a whole host of regular movement restrictions.

I am glad to see you enjoy the campaigns - I have played several so far from both sides - they are indeed a blast.
      
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 14:08
Yangtze,
Im just of the opion that the sentence that you used, needs to be followed up by a more detailed explanation as you need to explaine that ordering a unit twice in the same turn is legal in the first turn and you are able to draw 2 cards at the end of the turn. I think maybe the term "you may take 2 turns before your opponent" would be better suited as all the core rules stay intack and no other explantion is needed.

I ran through the game as you have described it should be started, and Japan had no hope, after the british turn there were no ambush survivors to support and the british ambush units made a dash for the exit. Japan then tried cutting the retreat but other british units got in their way and the game ended with japan loosing another unit. as the british decided they can take some hits due to only needing 1 more medal, they just through as many british units on one of Japans to end the game .

I just found the way i had first played gave Japan a little more hope to carry out what u descibed above.

Otherwise I really enjoyed the campaign, Will play through again when my opponent gets over the shame of his loss.... Very Happy
And see if we go down a differnt path
      
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Re:CB2 - Gemenchen Bridge (first turn?) Sun, 11 March 2012 14:17
tank commander wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 22:24

Aussie_Digger wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 08:44

tank commander wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 21:33

Aussie_Digger wrote on Sun, 11 March 2012 03:50

So if you are able to order units more than once in the turn and draw 2 cards at the end of the turn this needs to be outlined as it controdicts the normal rules of Mem44


The Allied player is really taking 2 turns to start the game here - the only difference is that he is not drawing a card to replace the first one played until after he has played out the actions of the second card. I have made a post it note to that effect and placed it in my CB 2 book. I am sure this will make it into the FAQ.


Im just going off the rule as written it says you may play twice on your FIRST turn. So therefor you can't play 2 turns.
Maybe the FAQ should just replace "you may play twice on your first turn" to "you may take 2 turns before your opponent" then it would get rid of the other core mem44 rules that come into play with with how the current special rule is and therefor not having to explaine that you can/cant do certain things that the normal rules don't or do allow.

Maybe iv just been playing to much combat commander lately, as the game is all about applying the rules as writen, which is what i tried to do in this case.

Anyway, I loved playing this campagine was a blast


I understand your stance here. I also play with the RAW.

But you can find many instances where an official special rule (usually in a scenario's special notes) that overrides another official rule.

My favorite is a unit ordered by BEL - such a unit is able to ignore a whole host of regular movement restrictions.

I am glad to see you enjoy the campaigns - I have played several so far from both sides - they are indeed a blast.



Yes, but in this cass the special rule dosn't override the core rule of only being able to order your units once in a turn and at the end of your turn you draw 1 card. there is only one sentence to go off "you may play twice on your first turn" so when i read this it tells me that it overrides the rule that normally I play a card then my oppneont dose but not anyother rules therefor all other core rules are in place.

That is why using the sentence "you may play 2 turns before your opponent" would be better as no other core rules need to be overridden in the special rules.
      
    
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