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Glenny boy
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  mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 16:58
cant find this in faqs but can you use a mortar in a bunker? it just doesn't seem right to me. Mortar pits...yes but mortar bunkers? Please educate me!
      
Almilcar
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 18:31
Glenny boy wrote on Mon, 03 March 2014 16:58

cant find this in faqs but can you use a mortar in a bunker? it just doesn't seem right to me. Mortar pits...yes but mortar bunkers? Please educate me!


I can`t recall an official scenario in where a mortar is inside a bunker, thus you won`t get any reply.

I might be wrong but that is gonna be the case.

Cheers
      
Antoi
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 18:35
Glenny boy wrote on Mon, 03 March 2014 16:58

cant find this in faqs but can you use a mortar in a bunker? it just doesn't seem right to me. Mortar pits...yes but mortar bunkers? Please educate me!


A bunker is not perse a bunker.
It's more like an fortified position. So why can't you use a mortar in a bunker?

Cut a hole in the roof if needed Laughing
      
5 star general
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 18:47
Think of the construction of a bunker, now think how a mortar is used. Get the picture?





[Updated on: Mon, 03 March 2014 18:49]

      
tinsoldier
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 18:51
I would say that since Mortar is an infantry unit, it can enter into bunker, like machine gun and anti-tank weapon.
      
Almilcar
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 19:09
tinsoldier wrote on Mon, 03 March 2014 18:51

I would say that since Mortar is an infantry unit, it can enter into bunker, like machine gun and anti-tank weapon.


Even though I am quite far of being an expert in the subject, I have to disagree. The path that needs a shell fired from a mortar makes almost impossible use it inside any type of construction, imho.

Having said that, I want to make stress in the fact that as far as I know there is no official scenario including this situation.

Regards
      
sam1812
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 19:34
When we try to interpret rules in terms of real-world logic, that's when we get in trouble. (See the recent discussion about IJA and write. ) Real-world considerations are for the people writing the rules. We don't have the complexity of ASL.

I find it most fruitful to interpret the rules as if I knew nothing about the actual war and equipment.

There's nothing in the rules that forbids a mortar from firing on a bunker hex, so they should be able to do it.

Also, remember the ruling on why a unit on the ground blocks LOS for a unit on a mountain hex. They're not necessarily on top of the mountain.
      
sam1812
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 19:36
By the way, this situation can come up in any official scenario that has mortars and bunkers. Infantries can move, after all.
      
Clexton27
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 19:52
sam1812 wrote on Mon, 03 March 2014 13:36

By the way, this situation can come up in any official scenario that has mortars and bunkers. Infantries can move, after all.

Yes, I agree with Sam, but despite the logic you guys are applying I would say that the Mortar unit behaves normally and if it is a field bunker, it benefits from -1 dice and may ignore a flag.

Think about the crew setting up their mortar behind the bunker and it may make more sense. When they come under direct fire, they abandon the mortar, pick up their carbines and defend their position.
      
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 20:36
Glenny boy wrote on Mon, 03 March 2014 10:58

cant find this in faqs but can you use a mortar in a bunker? it just doesn't seem right to me. Mortar pits...yes but mortar bunkers? Please educate me!

Gentlemen, the question at hand is "can you use a mortar in a bunker?" not can an inf unit with a mortar occupy a bunker?
      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 20:42
Due to the abstractness and scale of memoir you can't think of a bunker being just a bunker taking up the whole hex, it would represent bunkers, trenches and field fortifications. Think of "saving private Ryan" once they get off the beach you have the bunkers but there are also a network of trenches, which would have had mortar pit around them as well. So you need to think of that unit in the bunker hex occupying all these types of areas.
      
Glenny boy
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 21:00
thanks for all your swift replies. i moved a unit with a mortar into a bunker in a beach landing scenario which is why i asked the question.
      
tank commander
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 21:25
You may wish to check this site out:

http://tombrossman.com/blog/2012/german-bunkers-at-corbiere- m19-fortress-mortar


Check out the 9th and 10 th photos.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 21:31
Aussie_Digger wrote on Mon, 03 March 2014 11:42

Due to the abstractness and scale of memoir you can't think of a bunker being just a bunker taking up the whole hex, it would represent bunkers, trenches and field fortifications. Think of "saving private Ryan" once they get off the beach you have the bunkers but there are also a network of trenches, which would have had mortar pit around them as well. So you need to think of that unit in the bunker hex occupying all these types of areas.


This is a great way of thinking about it.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 22:23
Scale, scale, scale. We're not talking about a single mortar or crew, but a group of infantry with fire support. This could represent a very large unit.

So when rationalising, see the bunker as a fortified position, not a single building, and the infantry as a much bigger group.

I would reason that an Inf with SWA can occupy a bunker, benefit from its protection and fire the mortar out of the hex.

[Updated on: Mon, 03 March 2014 22:24]

      
Antoi
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 22:26
Achtung Panzer wrote on Mon, 03 March 2014 22:23

Scale, scale, scale. We're not talking about a single mortar or crew, but a group of infantry with fire support. This could represent a very large unit.

So when rationalising, see the bunker as a fortified position, not a single building, and the infantry as a much bigger group.

I would reason that an Inf with SWA can occupy a bunker, benefit from its protection and fire the mortar out of the hex.


exactly wat I'm thinking but then better said Smile
      
rasmussen81
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Mon, 03 March 2014 22:50
Achtung Panzer wrote on Mon, 03 March 2014 13:23

Scale, scale, scale. We're not talking about a single mortar or crew, but a group of infantry with fire support. This could represent a very large unit.

So when rationalising, see the bunker as a fortified position, not a single building, and the infantry as a much bigger group.

I would reason that an Inf with SWA can occupy a bunker, benefit from its protection and fire the mortar out of the hex.


Well put and well explained! Very Happy
      
jdrommel
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Tue, 04 March 2014 00:16
Hello,
mortars in bunkers have the same rules than guns in bunkers, they can fire in all directions, even if it is not the front direction. That's the M44 rules.

On the other hand, there were some fortifications (bunkers) in the Atlantic wall made for mortars such as tobruk for mortars.
You can see these special bunkers in Normandy still now.

Yours, Smile
Jdrommel.
      
sdnative
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Tue, 04 March 2014 05:11
M44 is not a tactical game like ASL the scale as said before is too abstract.

In ASL you cannot fire a mortar from within heavy forest or jungle, You can fire a bazooka from a building with grave penalties from the back blast and infantry within forest being shelled by artillery receive extra damage from tree fragments.

M44 is not that complex whewww!!

[Updated on: Tue, 04 March 2014 07:06]

      
Almilcar
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Re:mortars in bunkers? Tue, 04 March 2014 16:28
Thanks to all for the master class! Very Happy Razz
      
    
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