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TommieSL
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Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Thu, 25 August 2005 20:54
Eric.

I don't mean to rain on your parade re the new expansions (they look pretty good btw) but can you enlighten me as to why they don't have any new Command Cards?

No space? , no new ideas (doubtful)?, cost prohibitive?, not this time but maybe next?... What gives ?

Has there ever been any thought of a Design a new Command Card competition for the fan base with the winner's entry eventually finding its way into print as part of a future expansion?
Just a thought.
      
eric
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Thu, 25 August 2005 21:25
Not an issue of space or new ideas. The issues are time, balance and cost: experience shows it's a bad idea to go much above 20 Tactics cards out of a deck of 60 Command cards, so putting new ones in means pulling old ones out. Not to mention the language issue, etc...

This does not mean there won't be new ones in the future though. It just did not seem reasonable to delay the current expansions by a couple more months this time around though.

Eric

[Updated on: Thu, 25 August 2005 21:26]

      
TommieSL
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Thu, 25 August 2005 23:14
Interesting.
Thanks for the feedback.

Any view on the 'Competition' idea?
      
Nordiskanc
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 26 August 2005 00:13
I was really expecting a new command "air power" card for the Eastern Front expansion or at least a new rule modifying the current card. I don't think the Soviets should roll 2 dice as their Western Allies do. By '44 the West had total control of the skies over Western Europe, but in the East the Germans could get air parity even fairly late into the war on a given section (Army Group). Early in the war (1941 and such) the Germans ruled the air in the East.
      
Sniper
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 26 August 2005 00:24
Nordiskanc,

Allowing the Germans to use air power if they play a recon card reflects the advantage they had in the air on the Russian front, at least in the early war.
      
TommieSL
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 26 August 2005 01:14
Sniper wrote on Thu, 25 August 2005 23:24

Allowing the Germans to use air power if they play a recon card reflects the advantage they had in the air on the Russian front, at least in the early war.


Sniper makes a very valid point. I haven't looked at the new Eastern Front scenarios yet but I assume he is refering to unique 'Special Rules' that permit this 'ability' in certain scenarios.

If you (scenario designers) take this to its natural progression its a very clever way to introduce new Command Card ideas without actually having any included in the Expansions. Not only does this resolve the potential 'balance' issue highlighted by Eric above but it adds the extra intrigue and a variation of command decisions that most (well I was at least) expecting to be included in the new releases.

So, for example, one might have a Special Rule that says... "The 'Air Power' Card should be played as an...[insert your own Command card idea here]".
You can then regulate the probability of influence by carefully choosing which type of card your new rule will replace. One of the singular Tactic Cards (eg Air Power') should be chosen if the new rule is to be a one-tick pony or you may decide that the rule should have a greater influence on the scenario's outcome so it should therefore be invoked by something like a section card that will have a higher probability of being drawn.

Sniper's example above shows how the early war German Airpower dominance can be brought to bear onto a scenario without the use of a new card in itself. By choosing the 'Recon Card' there will be 6 additional opportunities for the Stukas to wield their might!
      
Nordiskanc
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 26 August 2005 01:50
Sniper,
I guess you are right, didn't think about that Embarassed , early war to me meant the Spanish Civil War through the invasion of Crete or so, but I can see how at least in '41 that can be used.
      
eric
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 26 August 2005 05:58
The Competition idea is a good one. However past experience (long time fans will remember the Fist of Dragonstones and Queen's Necklace contests) showed us that in order for it to work smoothly, there is a fair amount of work involved (on our side). So while it is something we eventually want to get to, I would not expect anything until sometime next year.
      
The Old Soldier
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 26 August 2005 07:06
I'm with Eric on this, I see no need for new cards presently. Think about it,... it is so much easier to make scenarios that manipulate the cards or change the text of 1 card or two for that scenario. I remember making a scenario for BattleCry, it was based on the battle of Richmond Ky. Every time the union or confederate player drew the reenforcement card or the force march card, they would get 2 infantry regiment/1 infantry regiments up to a maximum of a total of 4 per side. It represented the battle quite well, because both sides were bring more troops into that running battle.
      
Randwulf
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 26 August 2005 14:32
ok... how about a blank card with letters on them???? small set.... A A B B C C DD EEE FFFF.... 15 cards with five letters only.... cheat sheet on the side for what the letter card represents...

in this scenario add one A card and two B cards, exrta A card is played as an Airpower card, the extra B Cards are sniper attack, any one unit can be attacked with one die, a result of unit symbol grenade or star will score a hit, flags are ignored...

you can make up anything......
add only what is required by the scenario.....
or make it a random effect????

      
Rolld6
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 26 August 2005 15:56
I could see a future where each player (or side in an Overlord scenario) draws from their own deck and a certain mix of command cards is present in that deck of 60 cards. This would further customise the command and control, or flow of the army for that specific battle. It would represent the CO's ability, the armies preparedness and overall conditions.

A two deck system would also be a great way to handicap more experienced players, taking out some of the more powerful cards and replacing them with more generic ones.

All in all the card mix is much better than the one found in Battle Cry and really doesn't need major work, but a custom tweek here and there would keep things fresh. Just my $.02

TTFN,

John
      
jemcgloin
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Thu, 21 July 2011 08:01
How about taking out all of the recon 1 cards. (Even recon in force.) Between randomness of the cards and the randomness of the dice, it hardly feels like skill means anything sometimes. I have won more than half my games, but there are many that I won, where the other guy had no chance, because I had all the good cards and he had all recons.

[Updated on: Thu, 21 July 2011 08:02]

      
Zalamence
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Thu, 21 July 2011 08:58
jemcgloin wrote on Thu, 21 July 2011 09:01

How about taking out all of the recon 1 cards. (Even recon in force.) Between randomness of the cards and the randomness of the dice, it hardly feels like skill means anything sometimes. I have won more than half my games, but there are many that I won, where the other guy had no chance, because I had all the good cards and he had all recons.


Did you notice this thread is nearly six years old?
For the suggestion, I personally think recons are not bad at all because with recon 1 you get the chance to improve your hand. Recon-in-force (I wish it had a different name which would not cause confusion) is IMO a good defensive card that allows the player to repel attacks in multiple fronts.
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Thu, 21 July 2011 21:54
I disagree that Recon in Force is worthy of any scorn. It's a pretty middle of the road card. Many times when playing defense this card is way better than Attack or Assault, i.e., when you are attacked on multiple fronts or when you really have only 1 unit per section you want to order.

As for Recon-1, it can be a killer if you only have 4 cards total. But, scenario balance is the key I think to reducing the role of card luck in the games, and lets face it, scenario balance apparently was not a key requirement in the official scenarios.

But card luck can never be fully removed from this game, unless you fundamentally change the game from card-oriented to resource/action-oriented. But then its not the same game. To whit, if you are going to remove the cards that skew your chances in the negative you have to remove the cards that skew your chances in the positive. That is, if you remove Recon-1 you might as well remove the highly imbalanced "good" cards like Their Finest Hour, Firefight, Infantry Assault or even Direct from HQ. So what you are left with after this exercise are the middle of the road cards. At that point you might as well abandon cards altogether and use some sort of Action or Resource point system for commands.

I prefer to simply play games like Conflict of Heroes when I want to reduce the element of luck in my games at the expense of more complex rules and longer games.

[Updated on: Thu, 21 July 2011 21:55]

      
Clexton27
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Thu, 21 July 2011 22:31
Quote:

But card luck can never be fully removed from this game


Good card and dice luck can't be either. And I doubt few players would want to turn their victories in just because they were fortunate. Laughing Laughing
      
Fred the Obscure
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 22 July 2011 07:54
Comment on the Recon - 1 Card,

A house rule I play is that we draw two cards from the deck as instructed, yet have the option of throwing anycard away from the hand, not just one of the two just drawn.

This makes the recon far more effective, which hopefully is what recon missions were all about.

Fred the Obscure,
Durban, South Africa.
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 22 July 2011 09:42
Interesting idea ... Rolling Eyes
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 22 July 2011 18:23
Sgt Storm wrote on Thu, 21 July 2011 20:54

But card luck can never be fully removed from this game, unless you fundamentally change the game from card-oriented to resource/action-oriented. But then its not the same game. To whit, if you are going to remove the cards that skew your chances in the negative you have to remove the cards that skew your chances in the positive. That is, if you remove Recon-1 you might as well remove the highly imbalanced "good" cards like Their Finest Hour, Firefight, Infantry Assault or even Direct from HQ. So what you are left with after this exercise are the middle of the road cards. At that point you might as well abandon cards altogether and use some sort of Action or Resource point system for commands.


I just don't get why players complain about cards and luck. Card management is a key component of creating the Fog of War, as Richard Borg writes in almost all the Memoir expansion booklet forewords. Not being able to do what you want all the time i.e. frustration, is essential to any wargame. It's the attraction of the challenge.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 22 July 2011 20:42
When life gives you lemons.....

http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/l/lemons-3297.jpg

And so it goes with cards and dice.
Drink heartily and enjoy!
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 22 July 2011 21:53
Achtung Panzer wrote on Fri, 22 July 2011 12:23

Sgt Storm wrote on Thu, 21 July 2011 20:54

But card luck can never be fully removed from this game, unless you fundamentally change the game from card-oriented to resource/action-oriented. But then its not the same game. To whit, if you are going to remove the cards that skew your chances in the negative you have to remove the cards that skew your chances in the positive. That is, if you remove Recon-1 you might as well remove the highly imbalanced "good" cards like Their Finest Hour, Firefight, Infantry Assault or even Direct from HQ. So what you are left with after this exercise are the middle of the road cards. At that point you might as well abandon cards altogether and use some sort of Action or Resource point system for commands.


I just don't get why players complain about cards and luck. Card management is a key component of creating the Fog of War, as Richard Borg writes in almost all the Memoir expansion booklet forewords. Not being able to do what you want all the time i.e. frustration, is essential to any wargame. It's the attraction of the challenge.



You quoted me, but I hope you don't think I was complaining about luck in the game. The point of my message (long-winded though it was) is that card luck is a fundamental part of this game and really can't be removed.

Now, card management may be how Memoir '44 recreates what you refer to as "Fog of War", but it is not the only option to achieve the same effect in war games. For example, the command system in the "Fog of War" series by Academy Games seems to be designed with that in mind (without the use of cards).

Playing devil's advocate (as I personally have no complaints about Memoir '44's card mechanics), I think the complaint (others have) is not so much there is this "Fog of War" element, but that it is implemented using a mechanic that has a side-effect of too much variation in chance. Just my guess, anyway.
      
Fortytwa
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Re:Wot... No New Command Cards !?! Fri, 22 July 2011 22:27
Achtung Panzer wrote on Fri, 22 July 2011 17:23

Sgt Storm wrote on Thu, 21 July 2011 20:54

But card luck can never be fully removed from this game, unless you fundamentally change the game from card-oriented to resource/action-oriented. But then its not the same game. To whit, if you are going to remove the cards that skew your chances in the negative you have to remove the cards that skew your chances in the positive. That is, if you remove Recon-1 you might as well remove the highly imbalanced "good" cards like Their Finest Hour, Firefight, Infantry Assault or even Direct from HQ. So what you are left with after this exercise are the middle of the road cards. At that point you might as well abandon cards altogether and use some sort of Action or Resource point system for commands.


I just don't get why players complain about cards and luck. Card management is a key component of creating the Fog of War, as Richard Borg writes in almost all the Memoir expansion booklet forewords. Not being able to do what you want all the time i.e. frustration, is essential to any wargame. It's the attraction of the challenge.




could all that be summed up with the phrase "shit happens"
      
    
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