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Saghiet
Junior Member

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Posts: 22
Registered:
September 2007
Unbalanced combo's in 2p and how to counter Wed, 17 February 2016 11:30
Hi everyone,

Maybe fun to discuss. There's always some combo's in 2p that really throw off the 2p game. Thats why some players request 'no ghouls' I think.

I do agree that in 2p some powers or races are very strong and can throw of the balance completely. But imo, its a fun challenge to try and counter them anyways.

Thats why I was so suprised to see diplomat taken out of 2p. Yeah, if you get diplomat in the first turn combined with a race that spreads fast there is nothing really you can do about it as opponent.
But, the same goes for ghouls of the dragonmaster combined with a strong race like elves or skellies. And diplomat is a really good counter for all of those. So why take out diplomat and not other powers/races that have the potential to unbalance the 2p game?

And I would love, aside from the fact that it would be fun anyways, to be able to get the 4th expansion because igors are also a very good counter to ghouls.

With doplimat taken out, and igors not available for everyone there's really not enough countercombo's for ghouls and its often as simple as this: If a players get ghouls in turn 1, 2, or 3, over 9 out of 10 game's the other one doesnt stand a chance.

I would love the thoughts of fellow smallworld players who like the 2p game Smile

      
AngryMarine
Senior Member
Faster Than Mongolian Horse

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January 2012
Re:Unbalanced combo's in 2p and how to counter Fri, 27 May 2016 16:28
Hi!

I have expressed the thought that Diplomat is important for the balance on the 2p map many and many a time on these forums! I cannot explain the reason why Diplomat was removed from the 2p mode. Were the developers convinced by a few whiners who loudly called themselves "the majority"? The thing that just kills me in this situation is that the designer of the game himself meant Diplomat to be fair on the 2p map.

I am glad that there are players who think the way I do, so thank you for your post:)
      
Lawrence303
Member
KS Backer - Skeleton

Posts: 35
Registered:
December 2012
Re:Unbalanced combo's in 2p and how to counter Sun, 29 May 2016 20:00
Personally, I'm glad they removed Diplomat for 2p and I'd like to see Ghouls removed as well. The reason is not so much that Diplomat/Ghouls are overpowered — although they are — but that they almost always get chosen when they're available, with the result that 2/3 of games end up being Diplomat or Ghouls games, which are always sort of the same and get to be pretty boring. Lately I've been specifying "NO GHOULS" for my games and I think they're a lot more fun and interesting because every game is really different.

As for the Royal Bonus expansion, I don't like it and I've deactivated it for the games I create. I hate Behemoth and the Igors are overpowered.
      
AngryMarine
Senior Member
Faster Than Mongolian Horse

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January 2012
Re:Unbalanced combo's in 2p and how to counter Mon, 30 May 2016 12:11
Lawrence303 wrote on Sun, 29 May 2016 21:00

Personally, I'm glad they removed Diplomat for 2p and I'd like to see Ghouls removed as well. The reason is not so much that Diplomat/Ghouls are overpowered — although they are — but that they almost always get chosen when they're available, with the result that 2/3 of games end up being Diplomat or Ghouls games, which are always sort of the same and get to be pretty boring. Lately I've been specifying "NO GHOULS" for my games and I think they're a lot more fun and interesting because every game is really different.

As for the Royal Bonus expansion, I don't like it and I've deactivated it for the games I create. I hate Behemoth and the Igors are overpowered.


Hi, man! Glad to hear from you! I remember we had a few very interesting matches in 2013, then you disappeared. I was inviting you to games, but you were not accepting them, neither did you seem to be playing Small World at all. I was worried if everything was all right with you. As for me, I stopped playing Small World online about a year ago, because my buddies stopped receiving invitations due to some error on the DoW server. (Most of the times I did not see their invitations either.)

I see your point about the harmony and variety of the gameplay without Ghouls and Diplomat, talking about the 2 player map. But I personally think that any game becomes dull without annoying factors. You are saying that all matches with Diplomat and Ghouls are the same, but does really removing them remove typical strategies from Small World?

Having taken away Diplomat and Ghouls, you may go on stating, that all matches with Seafaring are the same - the first player just picks Seafaring, occupies two (sometimes three) unconquerable regions, then chooses a combo that can last till the end and takes advantage of his passive income for the most part of the game.

If we go on like this we can remove half of Races/Special Powers from the game. I have always been of the opinion that the monotony of the gameplay and the imbalance of some combos should be cured by adding elements, not by removing them. Igors, for example, can help to beat Skeletons etc.
      
Lawrence303
Member
KS Backer - Skeleton

Posts: 35
Registered:
December 2012
Re:Unbalanced combo's in 2p and how to counter Tue, 31 May 2016 10:08
AngryMarine wrote on Mon, 30 May 2016 06:11

Hi, man! Glad to hear from you! I remember we had a few very interesting matches in 2013, then you disappeared.

Hello! Yes, we have had some good games. If you ever start playing SW online again, I hope we can play some more.

AngryMarine wrote on Mon, 30 May 2016 06:11

Having taken away Diplomat and Ghouls, you may go on stating, that all matches with Seafaring are the same - the first player just picks Seafaring, occupies two (sometimes three) unconquerable regions, then chooses a combo that can last till the end and takes advantage of his passive income for the most part of the game.

That's a good point. But Seafaring isn't so powerful that it always gets picked when it's available, so we don't end up with half of our games being semi-predictable Seafaring games.

Similarly, we could complain that Pixies and Kobolds get picked a lot due to their high token counts. But there is no characteristic "Pixie strategy" or "Kobold strategy," so we don't end up with a lot of semi-predictable Pixie and Kobold games.

In the cases of Diplomat/Ghouls/Igors, we have the deadly combination of (1) always getting chosen when available and (2) having a characteristic strategy associated with them, which results in a lot of boring cookie-cutter games.

AngryMarine wrote on Mon, 30 May 2016 06:11

If we go on like this we can remove half of Races/Special Powers from the game. I have always been of the opinion that the monotony of the gameplay and the imbalance of some combos should be cured by adding elements, not by removing them. Igors, for example, can help to beat Skeletons etc.

I like your idea of improving the game through addition rather than subtraction. The problem is that in most games, the Igors won't actually appear to balance the Skeletons and Diplomat won't appear to balance the Ghouls, especially if you're playing with all four expansions.

Anyway, it's interesting to hear the opinions of other players on this issue. In my opinion the main appeal of SW is its variety from game to game, so I find it much more fun to play without Diplomat/Ghouls/Igors.
      
Saghiet
Junior Member

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Posts: 22
Registered:
September 2007
Re:Unbalanced combo's in 2p and how to counter Sat, 17 December 2016 21:29
Hi both, and thnx for your input!

In my opinion, if u start picking of races and special power cause they tend to overpower and then get picked a lot it is really a matter of reinventing the whole 2p game. When one race/spedial power is removed, u have other races that dont have good counters and become overpowering because of it. And so on.

It would be fun to see smallworld get an expansion especially designed for 2p. Lets come up with some combos that would really rock the 2p game Smile.

I didnt check in on the forum for a while so was happipy suprised to see some replies to this topic after all Smile
      
    
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