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Binderchk
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Why do you not like the air pack Sun, 23 April 2017 01:14
So I'm wondering what everyone dislikes about the Air Pack rules. I'm making my own rule set to enhance the original rules because I like them but to me they are missing the wow factor. So I'm interested in what everyone dislike about them. I appreciate everyone's input on this question
      
Quit2
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Sun, 23 April 2017 07:43
I like them.
      
Zalamence
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Sun, 23 April 2017 10:08
I haven't played with air rules, so my opinion is just an impression.

What I've understood is that air rules add lots of things that you have to learn, but only affect the game a little. That is, you might see a plane for a few turns of a match or you might not.

Other thing is that, according to rules, planes move not that differently from ground units. Even though M44 is a fairly abstract game, it still doesn't fit the mind-set of people. Plus, I'm not sure how well the air rules reflect the historical use of planes during WWII.
      
Antoi
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Sun, 23 April 2017 11:23
I like the original Air pack rules
They give the game another dimension without completely change it.

      
50th
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Sun, 23 April 2017 13:23
I made my own air rules because it was crazy to me that an airplane moving at more than 100 miles per hour didn't move but one more hex than a tank moving 25 to 35 mph. In my air rules, you can also bomb, strafe, do true ground interdiction, and ground units get a shot at air units. Also, no air checks, which bothered me why an airplane would have to see if it successfully flies over a minefield or a hill. They are available here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/file/download/suwsf6nlln/Air_Rules _10506.pdf

You can also transport a heroic leader, kamikazee, and fly recon.
      
Binderchk
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Sun, 23 April 2017 14:20
50th wrote on Sun, 23 April 2017 07:23

I made my own air rules because it was crazy to me that an airplane moving at more than 100 miles per hour didn't move but one more hex than a tank moving 25 to 35 mph. In my air rules, you can also bomb, strafe, do true ground interdiction, and ground units get a shot at air units. Also, no air checks, which bothered me why an airplane would have to see if it successfully flies over a minefield or a hill. They are available here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/file/download/suwsf6nlln/Air_Rules _10506.pdf

You can also transport a heroic leader, kamikazee, and fly recon.


I downloaded your rules but I'm confused on your movement distance for planes. I did not see in the rules what you thought was a good number of hexes a plane could move. Could you clarify this for me.
      
JJAZ
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Sun, 23 April 2017 16:36
The air pack is a good extension.

It can change a scenario dramatically, an example from the base game "Arnhem Bridge", Hard to win for the Axis but with Air rules the odds change a bit for the Germans on the Artillery in sandbags for an example.

It adds some tactics that have sometimes a surprised outcome.

I like the air pack just as I like Combat cards that also can make memoir a deeper tactical game.

Perfect it is not the way you see it translated into the war theatre, but then again only my wife is perfect Very Happy

J.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Sun, 23 April 2017 21:31
JJAZ wrote on Sun, 23 April 2017 10:36


Perfect it is not the way you see it translated into the war theatre, but then again only my wife is perfect Very Happy

J.


I agree with Johan. And yes, only his wife is perfect. Cool
      
50th
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Sun, 23 April 2017 22:33
Binderchk wrote on Sun, 23 April 2017 07:20

50th wrote on Sun, 23 April 2017 07:23

I made my own air rules because it was crazy to me that an airplane moving at more than 100 miles per hour didn't move but one more hex than a tank moving 25 to 35 mph. In my air rules, you can also bomb, strafe, do true ground interdiction, and ground units get a shot at air units. Also, no air checks, which bothered me why an airplane would have to see if it successfully flies over a minefield or a hill. They are available here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/file/download/suwsf6nlln/Air_Rules _10506.pdf

You can also transport a heroic leader, kamikazee, and fly recon.


I downloaded your rules but I'm confused on your movement distance for planes. I did not see in the rules what you thought was a good number of hexes a plane could move. Could you clarify this for me.


The airplanes can move across the whole board in less than one turn, so the airplanes are only on the board as they pass to make their attack. Then they RTB (return to base [or airfield]) to re-fuel and re-arm for another sortie. Under number 1 it says that air units are only on the board when making their attack.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Mon, 24 April 2017 00:47
I'm another person who likes the Air Rules as they are. Although Planes can end up being on the board for a limited time, it's up to the players...if someone is really good at using Planes, they can stay on the board for a long time and have a great impact on the battle. If you aren't careful and don't plan for them, planes may only last a turn.

Although the Air Pack was discontinued, it wasn't just because it wasn't popular...the cost to produce the expansion as-is went up so they couldn't keep printing it.

Have fun creating your own rules for the planes!
      
tank commander
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Mon, 24 April 2017 13:24
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 23 April 2017 18:47

I'm another person who likes the Air Rules as they are. Although Planes can end up being on the board for a limited time, it's up to the players...if someone is really good at using Planes, they can stay on the board for a long time and have a great impact on the battle. If you aren't careful and don't plan for them, planes may only last a turn.



I am with you. It took a while to get used to them but I think they served the purpose of showing air power over the battlefield well enough to satisfy me.

My good friend Johan (JJAZ) managed to keep a plane in the air for several turns in a game against me and he proved to be an excellent pilot. So, the plane can be an important factor to those who plan ahead.

As to the movement allowance of planes in the Air Rules, I just think the designer's intent was to show the various aspects involved for planes over a battlefield. A plane, in spite of the speed of the aircraft, just does not flit willy nilly across a battle. It has to ID a target, make sure it is not a friendly, make the approach, be on the lookout for enemy AA and fighters, make its attack run, evaluate what effect its attack had, perhaps make a second run, and if it expended its bomb load, return to base. Just because a plane could fly across the battlefield in turn does not mean it would happen. Attacks usually focused on one area, so the 4 hex range of planes as shown in the rules is not unreasonable.

Few in any games allow for the speed difference of planes over ground units. It is a very apples to oranges situation. That a why a lot of games represent air power attacks with markers. Even strategic level games often only show aircraft range in hexes as opposed to how fast it can fly.

As to the Air Checks for terrain, I think they represent intrinsic defenses (outside the actual units on the board) which have some degree of AA defense.

      
50th
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Mon, 24 April 2017 18:05
tank commander wrote on Mon, 24 April 2017 06:24

It has to ID a target, make sure it is not a friendly, make the approach, be on the lookout for enemy AA and fighters, make its attack run, evaluate what effect its attack had, perhaps make a second run, and if it expended its bomb load, return to base. Just because a plane could fly across the battlefield in turn does not mean it would happen. Attacks usually focused on one area, so the 4 hex range of planes as shown in the rules is not unreasonable.

Few in any games allow for the speed difference of planes over ground units.




I think my rules eloquently account for the differences in speed. The air unit is only on the board the turn he makes his attack. That would be the only time you would see an airplane over the target, when it is making it's attack. And the ground interdiction rules in the original are a joke, as are the air check rules. My rules allow you to slow ground units down by taking out bridges, rails, roads,train stations, trains ect, like they really did. My rules also allow for ground units to shoot at adjacent air units, and air artillery units, which were also an integral part of the WWII battlefield.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/WWII/Bofors-aa-gun-algeria.jpg

[Updated on: Mon, 24 April 2017 18:09]

      
JJAZ
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Mon, 24 April 2017 18:36
I would only like to add a part of my conversation I had with Richard Borg in person some years ago.

Richard mentioned the fact that people often criticize the game and want to alter so many things that he could hardly keep pace.

I know for a fact sometimes people give advice in a positive way, but forget if they would make this game themselves and every time they meet people they start telling you what can be better well...

I believe as 50th says, House rules are ok to make and some I see or not bad, but I feel Richard did really well with most expansions and for some rules he made better adjustments over the years.

Anyway I always adapt to the rules as they are or in tournaments that I enter using special rules I play along.

@ Clexton you are a connoisseur Surprised

J.


      
50th
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Mon, 24 April 2017 18:50
I would agree with you, JJaz. For the most part, I feel the game is great as written. I only use house rules if both players agree, and if it doesn't change the balance of the scenario too badly. About the only house rule I play consistently, is that Japanese and Italian armor almost always have two figures because most of their armor had such little armor protection compared to Panzer IV's and even Sherman tanks. And when I play air rules, I never use the air pack rules, only my own. As the two biggest things that bug me about the "official" rules, is the movement given to air units, and that they have to do an air check to fly over (practically) any terrain. I really like what all other expansions add to the game and have everything except the bag. (didn't need a bag, bought a cart!)

      
tank commander
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Mon, 24 April 2017 21:03
50th wrote on Mon, 24 April 2017 12:05

tank commander wrote on Mon, 24 April 2017 06:24

It has to ID a target, make sure it is not a friendly, make the approach, be on the lookout for enemy AA and fighters, make its attack run, evaluate what effect its attack had, perhaps make a second run, and if it expended its bomb load, return to base. Just because a plane could fly across the battlefield in turn does not mean it would happen. Attacks usually focused on one area, so the 4 hex range of planes as shown in the rules is not unreasonable.

Few in any games allow for the speed difference of planes over ground units.




I think my rules eloquently account for the differences in speed. The air unit is only on the board the turn he makes his attack. That would be the only time you would see an airplane over the target, when it is making it's attack. And the ground interdiction rules in the original are a joke, as are the air check rules. My rules allow you to slow ground units down by taking out bridges, rails, roads,train stations, trains ect, like they really did. My rules also allow for ground units to shoot at adjacent air units, and air artillery units, which were also an integral part of the WWII battlefield.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/WWII/Bofors-aa-gun-algeria.jpg




I understand you did not like what you saw in the Air Rules. I am sure there are others who share your view.

But, we cannot know the designers' intent on how he wanted to approach the problem of incorporating air rules to what is really a ground game.

As I pointed out above, the relative speed of a ground unit vs an aircraft can be taken into account. For example, say a given tank can move 30mph and say a certain type plane can fly at 300mph, or 10 times as fast as the tanks.

That same tank can also move 10 times as fast as a foot soldier moving at 3pmh. But in game terms, the tank moves only only one and 1/2 times as fast as an infantry when moving and only 3 times as fast as the infantry when moving and battling.

What does that mean?

Being hung up on one factor can lead to tunnel vision and then you may miss the big picture.

Obviously, there is a degree of abstraction in Memoir '44 (as there is in all wargames). One can go on and on about most of the rules. The beauty of the game to me is that for the it is relatively simple and for the most part is consistent in how the rules work with each other.

The Air Check rules seemed to work. Place an aircraft in a high risk area and you run a higher risk of losing it. Ground Interdiction did slow down ground units in the Air Rules and could block units from moving entirely.

I do not mean to be dismissive of your air rules. I am sure there are a number of players who looked at them and liked them.

Speaking for myself, I just did not see the need to reinvent the wheel.

[Updated on: Tue, 25 April 2017 11:42]

      
JJAZ
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Tue, 25 April 2017 18:39
@Tank Commander.

Funny how we both remember that ladder game "Arnhem Bridge"

I must say I had luck with the Air checks and cards or it would have been impossible to stay airborne for so long.

But a classic I never forget.

J.
      
Binderchk
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Sat, 29 April 2017 02:15
So I made my own air rules. It.s not so much a work to replace the original rules but a supplement to the original rules. I thought it would be cool to be able to have more then one plane in play so on the breakthrough and overlord maps and I have added bomber runs, bombing and dive bombing, air level advantages and disadvantages. I have added other aircraft and allowed for support planes on all armies not just Germans. Any rule can be added or not added depending on what the players chooses. I want to say that I am not trying to say my rules are better then Richard Borg's, his are great. I just thought that they needed a wow factor for those who like air fighting.
Anyway, I put them online for everyone to enjoy or not. I have played a game using my rules and they work pretty good. All avenues of these rules haven't come into play but I have play tested how they would work and they do work good. With the air levels certain original rules change, like air checks apply at levels 2&3 but 4,5,&6 they don't but there are trade offs for this protection. I've tried to keep them balanced. Once again, these rules are not to replace the original rules but to enhance and expand on them.

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/146607/my-air-rules-memoi r-44-altitude-levels
      
boersma8
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Wed, 03 May 2017 10:09
I do like them too. The only thing I somewhat dislike is that, unlike practically all other memoir expansions, the rules do not always seem entirely intuitive and I therefore always have to reread the entire air pack rules booklet each time I play with those rules. Once I have them down again, though, I think they add a lot of depth to the game! (see the tactics and strategy guide by Praxeo and the chapter that deals with the air pack).

[Updated on: Wed, 03 May 2017 10:10]

      
Binderchk
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Fri, 19 May 2017 02:24
Binderchk wrote on Fri, 28 April 2017 20:15

So I made my own air rules. It.s not so much a work to replace the original rules but a supplement to the original rules. I thought it would be cool to be able to have more then one plane in play so on the breakthrough and overlord maps and I have added bomber runs, bombing and dive bombing, air level advantages and disadvantages. I have added other aircraft and allowed for support planes on all armies not just Germans. Any rule can be added or not added depending on what the players chooses. I want to say that I am not trying to say my rules are better then Richard Borg's, his are great. I just thought that they needed a wow factor for those who like air fighting.
Anyway, I put them online for everyone to enjoy or not. I have played a game using my rules and they work pretty good. All avenues of these rules haven't come into play but I have play tested how they would work and they do work good. With the air levels certain original rules change, like air checks apply at levels 2&3 but 4,5,&6 they don't but there are trade offs for this protection. I've tried to keep them balanced. Once again, these rules are not to replace the original rules but to enhance and expand on them.

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/146607/my-air-rules-memoi r-44-altitude-levels


I just recently played the Break through Normandy 1st campaign, Dropped on the Contentin. I played against my son and 2 of his buddies. One in each campaign and we used my new air rules. All 3 of them said they liked the new air rules and they played well. My son did a carpet bombing on 3 of my infantry units and took out and took out 2,2 and 1. In the first two missions objective points kept changing hands and in the first 2 games the winning changed sides a couple times with the air rules influencing the outcome. In the second game I was getting my A++ whipped and the air rules came into play often in the latter half of the game. I was able to to close the gap enough to give the Allies a victory by 2 awards from a Axis lead of 8 to 5. I was able to weaken the Axis enough that my ground units rolls were able to overpower the over running Axis forces.
The last game took a while to win. However, I have to chalk some of that up to I was playing a new player but he was able to dive bomb me on 2 different occasions and fly over bombing on multiple units.
So anyway, I am working on a deck of cards to give the incoming planes an air sortie objective that they are attempting to achieve. (After all they weren't all dispatched to just shot the hell out of whatever you can. 2 cards I came up with is to give the plane a "Clear Skies" card which allow an extra 2 hexes on movement for that sortie 1 time and the objective is Targets of Opportunity and an Ace card that allows an ace an extra die while in battle. (until he must leave the battlefield). If you have any ideas as to what card(s) to make, let me know.
Anyway, I like my air rule and I find them to be pretty well balance. Example, If you dive bomb at level 2 you get and extra die. However, you are low enough for the ground unit to fire a die at you. A "Grenade" is a hit and the aircraft is shot down before it can do the bombing giving the ground unit a victory point. I was going to do a dive bombing on a tank unit at level 2. The tank unit rolled a grenade shooting down my aircraft. Had I stayed at level 3, I would have rolled 3 dice and the tank unit wouldn't have shot down my plane. Good trade off because one of the boys did it to me later and I missed and the dive bombing cost me a weakened unit to be destroyed and gave my opponent the lead in the game. I was also able to re-supply a weakened unit and keep it in the fight and helping me capture an objective.
I'll add more and upgrade the rules once I get the Air Sortie Mission cards figures out.
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Why do you not like the air pack Mon, 03 July 2017 21:17
For me it's the added complication. I find the same with my wargames. When I am playing a land campaign I like simple rules for air and naval aspects such as are found in Russian Campaign. I loved the Europa system but found the air rules a pain. The air pack is the only expansion that I don't have that I am not actively attempting to acquire.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Why do you not like the air pa Tue, 04 July 2017 03:39
I like the Air Rules as they currently exist. I like that they add some flavor to the game but do not overpower the land based combat. Also, what is not to like about pre-painted minis flying across the board.
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Why do you not like the air pa Tue, 04 July 2017 13:24
Perhaps this thread should have been titled 'Why do you like the air rules' as that seems to have been most peoples response.

I'm glad most people like them, and that they add to your enjoyment of what is already a fantastic game system.
      
    
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