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Clexton27
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Discarding AMBUSH Thu, 17 May 2018 22:07
There are times when having the AMBUSH card is a distinct disadvantage. Especially in scenarios that are heavy on Artillery where your opponent may never attack in Close Assault and you are only holding 4 cards in total. I can find nothing in the rules which prohibits the discard of this card in normal play rather than as a reactionary card. The rules simply state: "Play a Command Card." So, discarding the AMBUSH card and drawing another more usable Command Card makes sense.

So I am asking if anyone disagrees with this thought or if there is a general consensus that a Command Card is a Command Card?


https://ncdn0.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_compendium_command_13.jpg

[Updated on: Fri, 18 May 2018 13:56]

      
sam1812
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Fri, 18 May 2018 04:59
The rule book just says to play a Command card. You can play a section card even though you have no units in that section. The word Ambush doesn't appear anywhere in the basic rule book. The FAQ is silent on the subject.

In general, the rules are to be taken literally, so you can make a good case for it.

On the other hand, another general rule is that the text on a card modifies or overrules what's in the rule book.

I have to come down narrowly on the side of creativity and say yes, even though I'm not sure that was the intent.
      
magick
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Fri, 18 May 2018 07:33
It has been my experience sometimes, where I have had section/command cards in my hand, where I have no units to correspond with. If I've had the ambush card included, then sometimes I have discarded this card. I can't see any reason not to discard the ambush card, nothing I can find in the rules to say so, I think its just a matter of a players own personal choice
      
Jeronimon
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Fri, 18 May 2018 07:37
I would say that discarding the Ambush and drawing a new card is well within the rules.

It has, in my games, never been necessary. There has always been an opportunity to play the Ambus albeit for low dice results (one two) but that still gave some dice and a new card in my opponents turn.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Fri, 18 May 2018 13:29
Thanks guys for the responses.
      
JJAZ
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Fri, 18 May 2018 20:18
I'm Guilty of the question Clexton puts on this forum, and can confirm not to have close assaulted deliberately the entire game.
Not only he always has the Ambush card but he always rolls a flag also!
Laughing

Seriously I think although the card text says play it when your opponent close assaults you, I feel in some games Close assault or Ambush are bad cards for distant battle with artillery especially pecking at you and even worse we had also the Blitz rules in that particular scenario and a 5 Dices Victory event roll to start of with.
And to make it even more worse I had on my Reserve rolls a double Grenade which gave me 2 extra artilleries to attack Warsaw.

J.
      
5 star general
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Fri, 18 May 2018 23:49
Another card that might go with this is "dig-in". Sometimes useless and sometimes very handy. What say you?
      
magick
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Sat, 19 May 2018 09:03
Yes, I agree dig in card can be useful or a hindrance. It can be a hindrance if you have 4 cards to play, limiting the players hand to 3 cards, but on the upside, if you have no infantry units, you can order a unit of your choice.
      
Zalamence
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Sat, 19 May 2018 10:16
Dig-in can be played doing nothing (without a doubt). The text in Ambush seems to limit the possibilities how the card can be played.

I think the issue here is that Ambush is unique Command Card that is not like other cards which are played on your own turn. It is the only Command Card that can be played on the opponents turn; does "can" mean "must"?

If during actual play my opponent wanted to spend one turn throwing Ambush away, however, I would gladly let him Twisted Evil
      
tank commander
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Sun, 20 May 2018 01:21
I would have to say that playing the Ambush card in one's own turn is not permitted.

Although it is part of the command card deck, it is not really a command card and acts and is played as noted on the card.

While one is allowed to play a command card that at the time it is played orders no units, this is certainly different than playing Ambush on your turn.

The rules never state you can discard a card.
      
secret_strategem
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Sun, 20 May 2018 06:38
"After an opponent declares a Close Assualt, but before he rolls his dice, play this card"

I would thus conclude that that would be the only time you are allowed to play this card.
      
magick
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Sun, 20 May 2018 07:03
tank commander wrote on Sun, 20 May 2018 00:21

I would have to say that playing the Ambush card in one's own turn is not permitted.

Although it is part of the command card deck, it is not really a command card and acts and is played as noted on the card.

While one is allowed to play a command card that at the time it is played orders no units, this is certainly different than playing Ambush on your turn.

The rules never state you can discard a card.

If the rules state that you can never discard a card, then I think your not going to be able to play your turn at all, surely? Or have I misunderstood entirely?
      
Clexton27
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Sun, 20 May 2018 14:21
secret_strategem wrote on Sun, 20 May 2018 00:38

"After an opponent declares a Close Assualt, but before he rolls his dice, play this card"

I would thus conclude that that would be the only time you are allowed to play this card.

If you are stating that following the letter of the law on the card determines whether or not you can play it, then I guess you must also hold the CLOSE ASSAULT card in your hand until the end of a game as well if your opponent never has any units adjacent to yours?.

https://ncdn0.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_compendium_command_17.jpg

magick wrote on Sun, 20 May 2018 01:03

tank commander wrote on Sun, 20 May 2018 00:21



The rules never state you can discard a card.

If the rules state that you can never discard a card, then I think your not going to be able to play your turn at all, surely? Or have I misunderstood entirely?


The general point is that the rules simply state:
1 - Play a Command Card

The AMBUSH card is a Command Card.


[Updated on: Tue, 22 May 2018 17:30]

      
tank commander
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Mon, 21 May 2018 13:37
Clexton27 wrote on Sun, 20 May 2018 08:21

secret_strategem wrote on Sun, 20 May 2018 00:38

"After an opponent declares a Close Assualt, but before he rolls his dice, play this card"

I would thus conclude that that would be the only time you are allowed to play this card.

If you are stating that following the letter of the law on the card determines whether or not you can play it, then I guess you must also hold the CLOSE ASSAULT card in your hand until the end of a game as well if your opponent never has any units adjacent to yours?.


I guess we can take the above logic to the extreme.

How about Close Assault is placed under the Commissar chip to start a game and the Russian player has no Recons in hand. The German player never moves adjacent to any Russian units. IF we followed what is stated above, the Russian player would never get a turn as he is committed to playing the Close Assault card and he cannot play that.

But we know that in that situation, the Close Assault is "played" and no units are ordered, which in essence results in a non-turn for the Russian player.

I think the example has been set regarding cards that can be played in a player's turn which do not order any units.

I think comparing Ambush to the other cards in the deck is an apple to oranges situation IMO.
      
sam1812
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Mon, 21 May 2018 14:56
Yes, the question is still whether "Play a Command Card" applies to the Ambush Command Card, since no exception is noted in the rule book, and though the card says to play it at a different time, it doesn't specify that you may not alternatively play it at the same time as other Command Cards.
      
50th
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Tue, 22 May 2018 04:22
Like it or not, the Ambush card is a command card. I think it should be held until played as stated on the card. However, I also know you can play a section card if you have nothing in that section. Therefore, since I like home rules anyway, why not just home rule it? I always use two figures for Japanese armor because their armor was so much thinner when compared to German or American medium tanks. I play the same way with Italian armor as they were called "Iron Coffins".
      
secret_strategem
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Tue, 22 May 2018 16:25
You all make good points.

I was playing online the other day and I noticed that whilst I could play Close Assualt when there were no units to order, I could not play Ambush on my turn as a command card. Something to consider in this discussion.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Tue, 22 May 2018 17:27
secret_strategem wrote on Tue, 22 May 2018 10:25

You all make good points.

I was playing online the other day and I noticed that whilst I could play Close Assualt when there were no units to order, I could not play Ambush on my turn as a command card. Something to consider in this discussion.


I would not use the programming function of the Online game as a strict read of what is or is not actually permissible by the rules.

For instance, it is permissible (ONLINE) to use the Behind Enemy Lines card with a Early War SWA Anti-Tank Gun to take out an Armored vehicle. Also, you can Ambush an Armored vehicle with a Sniper (ONLINE). In both cases, these are against the rules.

It could be that in the programming of the game, in order to allow one to play a card on the opponents turn, that the function of playing the card at any other time was just not even considered, and hence, never programmed in.

[Updated on: Tue, 22 May 2018 17:29]

      
Quit2
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Tue, 22 May 2018 19:38
The big difference between ambush and other command cards is that ambush clearly states when you can play it.
For me, that means you can ONLY play it when that condition is met.

Other cards, like close assault don't say when to play it. That means the normal rules about when to play a command card applies.
Cards might not order any units when played. A probe right might order zero units when you have no units in the right section, just as much as a close assault might order zero units when you control no units that are adjacent to enemy units.

So in short: there is a difference between a condition on when you can play a card and a condition on what units might be ordered with a card.
      
tinsoldier
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Tue, 22 May 2018 22:36
Interesting thread, but honestly very theoritical in my view. It never occurred to me to discard this card...
And if my opponent were to ask me if he could do it, I would say "Yes, please do"

[Updated on: Tue, 22 May 2018 22:39]

      
Clexton27
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Tue, 22 May 2018 22:55
tinsoldier wrote on Tue, 22 May 2018 16:36

Interesting thread, but honestly very theoritical in my view. It never occurred to me to discard this card...
And if my opponent were to ask me if he could do it, I would say "Yes, please do"

Not at all theoretical. I was in this very situation which is why the question is out here for discussion. I appreciate your kind answer, my opponent was equally conciliatory. However, it would be nice to have an official ruling as this may arise in tournament play.
      
Jon Washington
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Mon, 28 May 2018 22:40
Clexton27 wrote on Tue, 22 May 2018 16:55


Not at all theoretical. I was in this very situation which is why the question is out here for discussion. I appreciate your kind answer, my opponent was equally conciliatory. However, it would be nice to have an official ruling as this may arise in tournament play.


I can see both sides of this question but I'm in the "allowed to discard it" camp. As others have said, its use depends on your opponent. If your opponent never close assaults, your hand is effectively one less than stated. That doesn't seem fair. Also, it can only help you and hurt your opponent, why would anyone object to an opponent throwing it away? It seems pretty ticky-tack to never close assault just for the slim chance to stick it to your opponent who's stuck with a useless card.

Although I wouldn't be surprised that the official ruling would be you cannot discard it.
      
tank commander
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Tue, 29 May 2018 12:11
Hi all.

We now have an official answer to this question.

Here is the question I sent to DOW:

Hi.

The Ambush card is played as per the text one the card (when it is not your turn) on the the opposing player's turn.

However, is it allowed to discard the Ambush card when it is your turn? That is to just play it which would order none of your units and then to draw a new card?

Thank you,

John

Here is the answer I received from DOW:

Alexiane
May 28, 2018, 12:17 -0400
Hello,

Unfortunately no, it's not possible. You have to deal with this card Wink

Customer Service
Days of Wonder
Customer Service

[Updated on: Tue, 29 May 2018 12:12]

      
Clexton27
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Tue, 29 May 2018 14:05
Thanks for the information John. Then that is how we will play it.
      
Sundown Kid
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Wed, 30 May 2018 04:38
Seems that when you draw an Ambush card you don't want, you'll do well to get on the receiving end of a close combat asap. Otherwise, you're allowing it to hamstring your hand.

Another M44 challenge to be worked out, another layer to this great game. Amazing that this one is just now coming to light, and not already in FAQ. (Surprizing, too. Been expecting Jesse to chime in any time that you just discard the darn thing. LOL)

Reminds of the recent conversation about combat cards which resulted in the not-so-obvious realization that you'll want to play a combat card alongside your best command cards in order to protect them from your opponent's combat cards.

This game (and community) continues to give so much! Smile
      
sam1812
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Wed, 30 May 2018 04:53
I'm reminded of a game on Vassal (in one of the early rounds of the Ladder tournament) where, at the start, one player accidentally flipped a card while drawing it, and it happened to be Ambush. His opponent played the entire game without close-assaulting.
      
magick
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Wed, 30 May 2018 11:54
Now we're all clear about this matter, thanks to Jesse, are we to assume the same rule for Close Assault card?
      
tank commander
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Thu, 31 May 2018 01:52
magick wrote on Wed, 30 May 2018 05:54

Now we're all clear about this matter, thanks to Jesse, are we to assume the same rule for Close Assault card?


If you mean that a player cannot play it if there are no enemy units adjacent to any to his units, no.

It has been made official that the Ambush can only be played on an opponents turn under the conditions as stated on the card.

A command card may be played that cannot order any units, like a section card where one has no units. Why would playing the Close Assault card be any different under conditions where no units could be ordered. It would also lead to the ridiculous situation I pointed out when using the Close Assault card with the Commissar Chip.

Remember, a player may choose not to order any units. He may choose not to move ordered units. He may choose not to fire ordered units.
      
sam1812
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Thu, 31 May 2018 02:23
Close Assault can unquestionably be played without it being able to order any units. This happens with the Commissar fairly frequently.
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Fri, 08 June 2018 17:13
Clexton27 wrote on Tue, 22 May 2018 21:55

tinsoldier wrote on Tue, 22 May 2018 16:36

Interesting thread, but honestly very theoritical in my view. It never occurred to me to discard this card...
And if my opponent were to ask me if he could do it, I would say "Yes, please do"

Not at all theoretical. I was in this very situation which is why the question is out here for discussion. I appreciate your kind answer, my opponent was equally conciliatory. However, it would be nice to have an official ruling as this may arise in tournament play.


Yes, It has cropped up with me a couple of times when playing France 40' scenarios. Germans often just sit back and pummel the poor French from afar. I never even considered It couldn't be played as a discard and draw.

From a rules lawyer perspective I can see both arguments i.e. A Command Card is a Command Card, or, the Card says exactly when to play. A ruling would be useful for competition, but it wouldn't actually change the way I play.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Fri, 08 June 2018 19:14
Major Duncan wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 11:13

Clexton27 wrote on Tue, 22 May 2018 21:55

tinsoldier wrote on Tue, 22 May 2018 16:36

Interesting thread, but honestly very theoritical in my view. It never occurred to me to discard this card...
And if my opponent were to ask me if he could do it, I would say "Yes, please do"

Not at all theoretical. I was in this very situation which is why the question is out here for discussion. I appreciate your kind answer, my opponent was equally conciliatory. However, it would be nice to have an official ruling as this may arise in tournament play.


Yes, It has cropped up with me a couple of times when playing France 40' scenarios. Germans often just sit back and pummel the poor French from afar. I never even considered It couldn't be played as a discard and draw.

From a rules lawyer perspective I can see both arguments i.e. A Command Card is a Command Card, or, the Card says exactly when to play.
A ruling would be useful for competition, but it wouldn't actually change the way I play.



See Tank Commander on May 29 for the Answer:
Basically, you can only play it as a reaction card and not as a Command Card
tank commander wrote on Tue, 29 May 2018 06:11

Hi all.

We now have an official answer to this question.

Here is the question I sent to DOW:

Hi.

The Ambush card is played as per the text one the card (when it is not your turn) on the the opposing player's turn.

However, is it allowed to discard the Ambush card when it is your turn? That is to just play it which would order none of your units and then to draw a new card?

Thank you,

John

Here is the answer I received from DOW:

Alexiane
May 28, 2018, 12:17 -0400
Hello,

Unfortunately no, it's not possible. You have to deal with this card Wink

Customer Service
Days of Wonder
Customer Service


[Updated on: Fri, 08 June 2018 19:16]

      
Major Duncan
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Re:Discarding AMBUSH Fri, 08 June 2018 21:05
Clexton27 wrote on Fri, 08 June 2018 18:14


See Tank Commander on May 29 for the Answer:
Basically, you can only play it as a reaction card and not as a Command Card


Thanks, and good to know. I personally don't see any harm in discarding it, and will continue to play that way.
      
    
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