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Jeronimon
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 14:16
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 10 June 2018 18:17

Jeronimon wrote on Sat, 09 June 2018 23:25

This settles a lot of questions, but still leaves some open:
about cards that affect a chosen unit among others (armor hull down and motorcycle dispatch for instance) is the card "protecting" all of those units or only the one.


I don't understand why this would be open still...


Here's my thinking why I still think they are open. (I might have missed something of course)

Example: I play Armor Assault and order four Armor Units and play Armor Hull down along with this command card. My opponent wants to play ambuscade. Can he?
Is the Armor Hull down protecting all four armor units or just the one that I will protect with the sandbags?

And keep in mind I do not know yet which Armor I will protect, that depends on how the firing overruns and taking ground go in the battle fase. Smile

Motorcycle dispatch Example: I play a probe and order an artillery, an armor and a infantry. My opponent wants to play a combat card on any of thoe units. Are they all protected or just one I have to choose beforehand?


[Updated on: Mon, 11 June 2018 14:16]

      
Jeronimon
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 14:25
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 10 June 2018 18:17

Quote:

And which has preference for playing cards?: The timespace between declaring an attack and throwing the dice now has several cards that both players can play. I would say the attacker, but the rules do not say anything about this I feel.


That's an interesting question. What card(s) are you thinking of?


Specifically any card that states: "Play this card after your opponent declares a battle but before his dice roll" The active player who is ordering the unit will add his "Jungle Warfare", "Blazing Suns and Guns" or "Street Fight" at this specific moment also.
      
Jeronimon
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 14:36
Quote:

"The basic and overriding rule is that when a player plays a Combat Card on a unit, the opposition player may not play a combat card against that same unit.

Most Combat Cards are played and only affect one unit and it is easy to understand that the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against that unit.

Some Combat Cards are played along side a player's Command Card and can affect a number of units. In this case, the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against any unit that the Combat Card affected.

There is no limit to the number of Combat Cards a player may play on his or his opponent's turn. A player may play multiple combat cards on the same ordered unit."


And the discussion easily continues with some cards: my opponent plays a Jungle Fighter card and runs through the jungle to attack me. I then play a Pull Back. My argument being that I am not playing a card on his unit but on mine.

And a question that has already been asked: The Spider Hole unit card in played "on" the opposing unit that just moved not "on itself". So if it attacks can I play an Ambuscade on it?

      
Clexton27
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 16:08
[quote title=Jeronimon wrote on Mon, 11 June 2018 08:36]
Quote:


And a question that has already been asked: The Spider Hole unit card in played "on" the opposing unit that just moved not "on itself". So if it attacks can I play an Ambuscade on it?




Clexton27 wrote on Mon, 07 May 2018 16:16

I am wondering if an AMBUSH (Command Card) or an AMBUSCADE (Combat Card) can be played against a SPIDER HOLE (Combat Card)?



Aha!!!!! And now we come full circle, how ironic. I love it! Laughing

I am sure at some point we will have the answers we are looking for.

[Updated on: Mon, 11 June 2018 16:10]

      
gheintze
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 16:38
[quote title=Jeronimon wrote on Mon, 11 June 2018 08:36]
Quote:



And the discussion easily continues with some cards: my opponent plays a Jungle Fighter card and runs through the jungle to attack me. I then play a Pull Back. My argument being that I am not playing a card on his unit but on mine.

And a question that has already been asked: The Spider Hole unit card in played "on" the opposing unit that just moved not "on itself". So if it attacks can I play an Ambuscade on it?





I'm glad that other experienced players are asking the same questions I am.

Although I don't like the answer, the official response to this (from Jesse) is that you cannot play a combat card in response to an attack from a unit that had a combat card played on it -- no Pull Back, no Ambuscade, no Make a Stand.
      
Sundown Kid
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 17:51
Deleted this post after Jon Washington got me thinking "Right!, you can't play a card on your own unit after opponent plays one on it." Thanks, Jon! This one's a doozy!

[Updated on: Mon, 11 June 2018 21:14]

      
Jon Washington
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Mon, 11 June 2018 21:50
Sundown Kid wrote on Mon, 11 June 2018 11:51

Deleted this post after Jon Washington got me thinking "Right!, you can't play a card on your own unit after opponent plays one on it." Thanks, Jon! This one's a doozy!


Cheers! I've decided for myself but I'd hate to be a tournament director trying to interpret all this on the fly. Confused
      
sam1812
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Tue, 12 June 2018 04:53
Speaking as a tournament director, I'll be interpreting it all in advance and handing out summary sheets.
      
Jon Washington
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Tue, 12 June 2018 09:39
sam1812 wrote on Mon, 11 June 2018 22:53

Speaking as a tournament director, I'll be interpreting it all in advance and handing out summary sheets.


I was thinking it was June instead of July for some reason, which would have made it less than two weeks away. You have plenty of time, and honestly I think these situations will be rare. Most of the cards are easy to apply this rule to without any trouble.


      
Zalamence
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Wed, 20 June 2018 15:12
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 10 June 2018 04:31

I'll be posting a thread once the dust has settled on this matter to clarify things a bit and I'll make it sticky. Unless I hear otherwise, we will be using the rules as Richard intended.


I would like see the sticky post. If possible, it would be nice to also hear why these rules are what they are. Or maybe read about the intentions of Mr. Borg in the broader sense regarding Combat Cards. Thank you for helping the community!
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Wed, 27 June 2018 23:11
Things have gotten busy so this has taken a back seat to life. I know, how could there be anything more important, right?!

Here are the clarifications from Richard, presented in an FAQ format. After your feedback and thoughts, this will be posted as a sticky (locked) thread at the top of the Memoir '44 forums for people to reference when needed.

Let me know if you still have questions or comments about this.

Combat Cards FAQ Thread:

Q: How should Armor Hull Down work?
A: There is an error on the text of this card. Armor Hull Down should say, "Play this card on one ordered armor unit." instead of you playing it next to your Command Card.

Q: I'm confused about this line in the Combat Card rules found in the Through Jungle and Desert: "A second Combat card may not be played against a unit that already had a Combat card played on it this turn" and "A Combat card may not be played against a player that has played a Combat card alongside his command card on that turn." because the rules also say "Combat cards that increase the number of Battle dice rolled are cumulative in effect, when played on the same ordered units(s)."
A: The basic and overriding rule is that when a player plays a Combat Card on a unit, the opposition player may not play a combat card against that same unit.
Some Combat Cards are played along side a player's Command Card and can affect a number of units. In this case, the opposition player may not play a Combat Card against any unit that the Combat Card affected.
However, the active player can play as many Combat Cards as they want on their own units in a turn, all of which are cumulative. There is also no limit to the cards an opponent can play against a unit that isn't protected from Combat Cards.

Q: Who has priority when playing Combat Cards that might interact? The active player or the defending player?
A: It depends on when the card says to play it. If the active player gets to play their card first, the non active player can’t play one on the unit(s) that are affected by that card. If the non active player gets to play their card first, the active player can’t play one on the unit affected by that card. An example of this would be the active player attacking with an Artillery unit and then planing to later play “Reposition”. The defending player uses “Ambuscade”, so now the plan for that Artillery unit to reposition is not allowed, because a Combat Card was already played on it.

Q: I am going to attack with my unit and I want to play a Jungle Warfare card on my unit to help them but my opponent wants to play Pull Back on my unit so I can't attack. Who gets to play their Combat Card first?
A: Before an attack, a player would need to declare that he is using a combat card’s Jungle Warfare Special Action so his unit would roll one additional die. Therefore the opponent may not play the Pull Back combat card because a Combat Card was already played on the unit.

Remember that these rules are retroactive and apply to all Combat Cards.

[Updated on: Thu, 28 June 2018 17:32]

      
sam1812
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Thu, 28 June 2018 04:57
Thanks, Jesse. All this clarification is much appreciated.

One clarification, please: You gave Richard's clarification about Armor Hull Down, "Play this card on one ordered armor unit."

On June 9, you interpreted, 'My memory is that you play the card when it says you take the action. Therefor, if it says "after the unit has moved/battled" it is played after the unit is done with the actions it is taking that turn.'

Unfortunately, Richard's statement doesn't indicate whether to play it before or after moving and battling. I believe your interpretation is the sensible one, but can you confirm whether it's the official one?

Thanks.

Sam
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Thu, 28 June 2018 08:01
The third Q and A that I have above is getting to that timing element a bit. I'm still waiting to hear back from Richard but based on what he has told me previously it sounds like Armor Hull Down would be played when the unit is ordered, so before they even move or battle.

I'll clarify that question more when I can.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Thu, 28 June 2018 13:08
Thanks, Jesse.

It might be useful to note that, in the older decks, the analogous Fortify is played after moving and battling.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Thu, 28 June 2018 17:33
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 28 June 2018 04:08

Thanks, Jesse.

It might be useful to note that, in the older decks, the analogous Fortify is played after moving and battling.


I got a reply from Richard Borg about the FAQ post up above so we're all set there.

Sam, looking at the card I don't think there's any confusion about Fortify because it clearly says when the card is played. If you want to play that card but your opponent plays Ambuscade on that unit first, you will not be able to use Fortify for the target of the attack because a Combat Card was already played on the unit.

Let me know if that doesn't make sense.

I've posted the clarifications as a sticky thread but I've locked it so that it stays clean for people what want to check the rules. If there is still confusion, post any further questions here and we can continue to discuss things and then I'll update the FAQ thread.

I hope this helps!

[Updated on: Thu, 28 June 2018 18:03]

      
Zalamence
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Wed, 04 July 2018 09:15
I recently noticed that Jungle Ambuscade (JC05) is a bit different than other versions in Urban, Winter and Desert decks.

It has the text "In addition, a Japanese INFANTRY unit will battle with 1 additional die."

Japanese infantry may also benefit from Seishin Kyoiku doctrine (Nations 3), Close Assaulting at +1 die. Do these bonuses add up? Technically, Ambush or Ambuscade is not a Close Assault.

In the past, I have played Ambush (Command Card) so that Japanese infantry do get the extra die, if they are in full strength.
      
tank commander
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Wed, 04 July 2018 13:45
Zalamence wrote on Wed, 04 July 2018 03:15

I recently noticed that Jungle Ambuscade (JC05) is a bit different than other versions in Urban, Winter and Desert decks.

It has the text "In addition, a Japanese INFANTRY unit will battle with 1 additional die."

Japanese infantry may also benefit from Seishin Kyoiku doctrine (Nations 3), Close Assaulting at +1 die. Do these bonuses add up? Technically, Ambush or Ambuscade is not a Close Assault.

In the past, I have played Ambush (Command Card) so that Japanese infantry do get the extra die, if they are in full strength.


I would be hard pressed to name a official Japanese scenario where the Imperial Japanese Army rule was NOT in effect. Perhaps the card was meant to state on the card "a Japanese full strength INFANTRY will battle with 1 additional die" to cover the Japanese Imperial Army Rule. I am wondering why else only a Japanese infantry would get that +1 when using AMBUSCADE.

By the way, I have always played AMBUSH the same way when a full strength Japanese infantry uses it - 4d.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Wed, 04 July 2018 18:38
Zalamence wrote on Wed, 04 July 2018 03:15

Technically, Ambush or Ambuscade is not a Close Assault.

Well actually Ambush and Ambuscade ARE always Technically close assaults, if they were not, you would not be able to play the cards.

Memoir Basic Rules p.8
Quote:


A unit attacking an adjacent enemy unit is said to be in "Close Assault" with that enemy.
A unit attacking an enemy unit more than 1 hex away is said to "Fire" at that enemy.

First line on the AMBUSH Command card reads:
"After opponent declares a Close Assault..."

Also note yellow text at bottom of Jungle & Desert Combat cards:
"Play this card after your opponent declares a Close Assault".

And the text at the bottom of the Urban Combat and Winter Combat AMBUSCADE cards:
"Play this card after your opponent declares a Close Assault".



tank commander wrote on Wed, 04 July 2018 07:45


I would be hard pressed to name a official Japanese scenario where the Imperial Japanese Army rule was NOT in effect. Perhaps the card was meant to state on the card "a Japanese full strength INFANTRY will battle with 1 additional die" to cover the Japanese Imperial Army Rule. I am wondering why else only a Japanese infantry would get that +1 when using AMBUSCADE.

By the way, I have always played AMBUSH the same way when a full strength Japanese infantry uses it - 4d.


The simple reason is that the Jungle Combat AMBUSCADE card allows the Japanese forces one extra dice. It is not reiterating a rule peculiar to full strength Japanese Units it is just "spicing up the game" by giving the Japanese more deadly force in close assault. The moral of the story is:
Don't get ambuscaded (not ambushed) by a full figure Japanese unit while not in cover OR you will have 5 dice coming your way!

[Updated on: Wed, 04 July 2018 19:02]

      
Zalamence
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Wed, 04 July 2018 20:55
Clexton27 wrote on Wed, 04 July 2018 19:38

Zalamence wrote on Wed, 04 July 2018 03:15

Technically, Ambush or Ambuscade is not a Close Assault.

Well actually Ambush and Ambuscade ARE always Technically close assaults, if they were not, you would not be able to play the cards.

What I was trying to say is that Ambush not identical to "normal" Close Assault - one difference is that ambushing unit cannot Take Ground. So it would not be completely ruled out that other differences could exist. I think it is simpler to have the extra dice, and play as you suggested.
      
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Wed, 04 July 2018 23:34
.
I'm preparing my help sheet for the WBC tournament, and want to have my facts straight.

0. If a Combat card wouldn’t order any units, then you can’t play it alongside your command card to get protection. Example: If you have no artillery, then Spotter can’t protect any units from enemy cards. You would have to use that card for the Special Action, instead. Correct?

1. Ambuscade (Jungle). Japanese Infantry rolls 1 more die than it normally would. Full-strength unit against an unprotected target thus rolls 5d. Correct?

2. Ambuscade (or Ambush). Can a player increase his dice on Ambuscade or Ambush by adding Jungle Special Action Combat cards?

3. Armor Bulldozer. Battle dice reductions battling into Jungle are ignored. Correct?

4. Foxhole. If the unit was already in sandbags and does not move, it is not protected from enemy Combat cards this turn. Correct?

5. Jungle Fighters. Battle dice reductions battling into Jungle are ignored. Correct?

6. Motorcycle Dispatch. Player must designate which unit is the added order. Only that one is protected from Combat cards. Correct?

7. Pull Back. If a unit is already in the back row, it can’t Pull Back. Correct?

8. Return to Duty. All ordered infantry for which dice were rolled are protected against Combat cards. Full-strength infantries are not. Correct?

9. Spider Hole. The figure must remain on that hex even after the current turn. Correct?

[Updated on: Wed, 04 July 2018 23:37]

      
Zalamence
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Thu, 05 July 2018 18:05
Also Spider Hole. If the result of surprise attack is forcing retreat, does the retreating unit lose the ability to battle (like Ambush)?
      
sam1812
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Re:Jungle and Desert Rules questions Sat, 11 August 2018 16:43
.
Before the WBC tournament, in practice games many questions came up about various Combat cards, so I prepared the following set of rulings and comments in advance. I noted which of these are based on official sources (the rules sheet, FAQ, posts from Richard) and which are based on interpretations by me as GM. My rulings are based on my close reading of the rules and similar precedents, but of course they aren't official.

Ambuscade (Jungle). Note that all Japanese Infantry rolls 1 more die than it normally would. This means full-strength IJA unit rolls 5d. (GM)

Ambuscade / Ambush: You may not use Jungle Warfare Special Action to add dice to an Ambush/Ambuscade, because that’s not an ordered unit. (GM)

Armor Bulldozer. Battle dice reductions battling into Jungle are ignored. (GM) And since movement restrictions are ignored, Armor Overruns are permitted. (GM)

Armor Hull Down has an error. It was supposed to say, "Play this card on one ordered armor unit." instead of you playing it next to your Command Card. You play it when ordering the [specific] unit that you intend to put a sandbag on later. (You must designate which unit when ordering, so the opponent knows it’s protected from Combat cards. (Official)

Foxhole. If the unit was already in sandbags and does not move, it is not protected from enemy Combat cards this turn. (GM)

Giretsu. Cannot be combined with Behind Enemy Lines to make 6 hexes of movement. But it can be combined with Heat of Battle to allow an Overrun. (Official) The second move takes place after all units have battled. (GM/FAQ. See Marines Behind Enemy Lines.)

Jungle Fighters. Battle dice reductions battling into Jungle are ignored. (GM)

Make a Stand. Protects against all flags, even from Barrage, Air Power, and Ambushes. (Official) If you play this against close combat, which lets your unit attack back, roll you regular attack dice (like an Ambush). If your unit is a 1-figure BCF unit eligible to do a Stiff Upper Lip battle-back, add an extra die for that, too. (GM)

Minesweeping. The side that controls the mines may not use this card to remove its own mines. (Official)

Motorcycle Dispatch. Player must designate which unit is the added order. Only that one is protected from Combat cards. (GM)

Out of Ammo. If running back to a baseline hex, that must be in the same section. If the unit was on the border between two sections, either section is okay. If all baseline hexes are occupied, go to the next row. Also, note that this J&D card may only be played against ranged attacks.(Official)

Pull Back. May not be played if a Combat card was played on the attacking unit. (Even though the defender is the one that moves, the card would deprive the attacker of the ability to battle, and that would be contrary to the rules.) If a unit is already in the back row, it can’t Pull Back. Attacker may not take ground. (GM)

Reinforcements. Unlike earlier decks, Reinforcements is played at the end of the turn for Jungle and Desert, and unit placement is different. “Vacant” hex means no enemy units; it may have terrain. (Official)

Return to Duty. Only ordered infantry for which dice were rolled are protected against Combat cards. Ordered full-strength infantries are not, since they didn't benefit from the card. (GM)

Sandstorm. Taking ground and armor overrun are permitted. (GM)

Spider Hole. The figure must remain on that hex even after the current turn. (GM) When a defender plays Spider Hole, the attacker may not Ambush that attack. (And of course, playing a Combat card against it is not possible.)

And a word to the wise: Play your Combat card either before or simultaneously with the action it's accompanying (Command card, attack, etc.), so the opponent can't throw down a card to stop you.
      
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