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Clexton27
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Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Fri, 19 July 2019 05:11
The NFP rules state that for Machine gun bullets only icons for the units are hits unless the combat card modifies what is a hit. Also, only icons or grenades are hits from a bomb unless a combat card modifies what is a hit.

However, is a star a hit from either of these weapons against a Tank Destroyer?
The tank destroyer rules from the Winter War expansion state:

WINTER WARS p.8
Quote:

When a Tank Destroyer targets an enemy Armor or Vehicle unit, all stars rolled score a hit. Unfortunately, they are also more vulnerable to enemy fire, due to their lighter armor: Any non-Infantry unit targeting a Tank Destroyer unit will score a hit on any star rolled.


Since an airplane is a non-infantry unit will it’s stars cause hits on Tank Destroyers even when not designated so by a combat card?
      
sam1812
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Fri, 19 July 2019 06:21
In the absence of an official ruling to the contrary, I would rule that since it is "any non-Infantry unit," a star from any plane is a hit against a TD. But of course rolling a grenade with machine gun ammo would not hit a TD.

Note that page 8 of NFP specifies that planes are not Vehicles, so a TD won't hit a plane with a star, unless a Combat card modifies that.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Fri, 19 July 2019 13:25
The crux of the matter is whether the unit firing, or the projectile fired has the last word.
The prior rule TANK DESTROYERS was in play under old Airpack rules and because the airplane fired a generic dice and stars were ALWAYS hits it was simple.
Now if a machine gun bullet has a distinct ability to only hit on a unit icon symbol than that bullet does not hit on a star.
In kind, if tha bomb is the means of attack and it hits on grenades and icons, so again a star may be a miss because of the Ammo used not because of the unit firing the ammo.

I wish I knew what the answer was, but I know you will need a distinct answer for the WBC.
      
sam1812
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Fri, 19 July 2019 15:15
Stars are always misses, when rolled by any unit, except when the rules specify otherwise. The rule when a star is rolled by any non-infantry unit against a TD is that the star is a hit. Before doing my previous post, I did a quick scan through the NFP, searching for "star," and didn't see any exception for planes firing air-to-ground.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Fri, 19 July 2019 21:16
Clexton27 wrote on Fri, 19 July 2019 04:25

The crux of the matter is whether the unit firing, or the projectile fired has the last word.
The prior rule TANK DESTROYERS was in play under old Airpack rules and because the airplane fired a generic dice and stars were ALWAYS hits it was simple.
Now if a machine gun bullet has a distinct ability to only hit on a unit icon symbol than that bullet does not hit on a star.
In kind, if tha bomb is the means of attack and it hits on grenades and icons, so again a star may be a miss because of the Ammo used not because of the unit firing the ammo.

I wish I knew what the answer was, but I know you will need a distinct answer for the WBC.


I don't think the Ammo rules override or supersede other rules like the Tank Destroyers rule. The reason we were so clear about Airplanes not hitting on Stars is because that is a change from the entire history of the game...we wanted to make sure people knew that planes don't automatically hit on a Star roll any more.

The rule for Tank Destroyers is that they are vulnerable to Star rolls as long as the attack isn't coming from Infantry.

So regardless of which Ammo you pick, the Tank Destroyer will be hit by a Star...not because of the Ammo but because of the weakness of the TD.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Fri, 19 July 2019 22:03
Thanks Jesse for clarifying that concern. Cool
      
tank commander
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Fri, 19 July 2019 22:28
Interestingly enough, gheintze e mailed me with the same question. We came up with the same answer in that a star scores a hit on TDs.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Fri, 19 July 2019 22:52
tank commander wrote on Fri, 19 July 2019 13:28

Interestingly enough, gheintze e mailed me with the same question. We came up with the same answer in that a star scores a hit on TDs.


It seems fitting that he would e-mail you! Very Happy Being the Tank Commander and all!! Cool
      
tinsoldier
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Sun, 21 July 2019 10:00
Along the same line, is a tank destroyer hit by a star from an Artillery Barrage card (which is not a "unit") ?
      
tank commander
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Sun, 21 July 2019 14:04
tinsoldier wrote on Sun, 21 July 2019 04:00

Along the same line, is a tank destroyer hit by a star from an Artillery Barrage card (which is not a "unit") ?


Sadly yes. I lost a full strength TD from the play of BARRAGE on turn 1 of a game - ouch!
      
tinsoldier
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Mon, 22 July 2019 19:01
Ok, thks
      
Zalamence
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Mon, 22 July 2019 21:41
tank commander wrote on Sun, 21 July 2019 15:04

tinsoldier wrote on Sun, 21 July 2019 04:00

Along the same line, is a tank destroyer hit by a star from an Artillery Barrage card (which is not a "unit") ?


Sadly yes. I lost a full strength TD from the play of BARRAGE on turn 1 of a game - ouch!

I actually proposed this earlier, in of General Stevens's quizzes. At least back then, we agreed that only BARRAGE from Breakthrough deck would score a hit on TD with a star (since the regular BARRAGE card is not a unit).
      
Clexton27
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Mon, 22 July 2019 22:36
Zalamence wrote on Mon, 22 July 2019 15:41

tank commander wrote on Sun, 21 July 2019 15:04

tinsoldier wrote on Sun, 21 July 2019 04:00

Along the same line, is a tank destroyer hit by a star from an Artillery Barrage card (which is not a "unit") ?


Sadly yes. I lost a full strength TD from the play of BARRAGE on turn 1 of a game - ouch!

I actually proposed this earlier, in of General Stevens's quizzes. At least back then, we agreed that only BARRAGE from Breakthrough deck would score a hit on TD with a star (since the regular BARRAGE card is not a unit).


Yes, thanks Zalamence.

And I will still personally play it that way sir, unless someone from DOW gives a different official ruling. Hit on a star from a BREAKTHROUGH DECK Barrage Card, but not the normal deck Barrage Card.

https://ncdn0.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_compendium_command_15.jpg
ORIGINAL CARD only mentions Unit's Symbol and Grenade as hits.

p6. WINTER WARS EXPANSION w/ revised Barrage Card
Quote:

* Barrage (1 card)
A Star symbol is added to the list of symbols that score a hit on the Barrage.


[Updated on: Mon, 22 July 2019 22:36]

      
tank commander
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Thu, 01 August 2019 01:41
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 19 July 2019 16:52

tank commander wrote on Fri, 19 July 2019 13:28

Interestingly enough, gheintze e mailed me with the same question. We came up with the same answer in that a star scores a hit on TDs.


It seems fitting that he would e-mail you! Very Happy Being the Tank Commander and all!! Cool


Ah, in the game world only. My picture shows me at about the age of 10 in a Sherman parked in front of an American Legion. But the angle of the picture makes the Sherman look a lot like a Panther.

Interestingly enough at a prior WBC my opponent, after hearing me being called tank commander, stated I was too tall to be a tank commander. He seemed to be put out a bit as he thought I claimed to be one as he had indeed served as a tank commander. I had to explain to him it was for gaming purposes only - lol. Of course that does not mean that if I found a tank with the keys left in it, I would not be tempted to take it for a brief spin Very Happy
      
tank commander
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Thu, 01 August 2019 01:45
Clexton27 wrote on Mon, 22 July 2019 16:36

Zalamence wrote on Mon, 22 July 2019 15:41

tank commander wrote on Sun, 21 July 2019 15:04

tinsoldier wrote on Sun, 21 July 2019 04:00

Along the same line, is a tank destroyer hit by a star from an Artillery Barrage card (which is not a "unit") ?


Sadly yes. I lost a full strength TD from the play of BARRAGE on turn 1 of a game - ouch!

I actually proposed this earlier, in of General Stevens's quizzes. At least back then, we agreed that only BARRAGE from Breakthrough deck would score a hit on TD with a star (since the regular BARRAGE card is not a unit).


Yes, thanks Zalamence.

And I will still personally play it that way sir, unless someone from DOW gives a different official ruling. Hit on a star from a BREAKTHROUGH DECK Barrage Card, but not the normal deck Barrage Card.

https://ncdn0.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_compendium_command_15.jpg
ORIGINAL CARD only mentions Unit's Symbol and Grenade as hits.

p6. WINTER WARS EXPANSION w/ revised Barrage Card
Quote:

* Barrage (1 card)
A Star symbol is added to the list of symbols that score a hit on the Barrage.





I think the reasoning was that BARRAGE is in essence an attack from artillery. That would certainly qualify as a non-infantry attack vs a TD and thus stars would indeed be hits.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Thu, 01 August 2019 12:40
Yes, it makes sense that it would work as Artillery.
      
Jon Washington
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Thu, 01 August 2019 19:14
tank commander wrote on Wed, 31 July 2019 19:45

I think the reasoning was that BARRAGE is in essence an attack from artillery. That would certainly qualify as a non-infantry attack vs a TD and thus stars would indeed be hits.



I understand the logic and pretty much agree with the idea that a barrage would come from artillery in the real world. However, in terms of the rules of the game, an artillery shoots 3-3-2-2-1-1 and a barrage is 4 against any unit on the board.

I've always heard never assume anything in M44 rules and that cards override rules, generally. So if a card doesn't say that stars hit, they don't.

Just my opinion...
      
*player3794304
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Thu, 01 August 2019 20:22
Jon Washington wrote on Thu, 01 August 2019 20:14

tank commander wrote on Wed, 31 July 2019 19:45

I think the reasoning was that BARRAGE is in essence an attack from artillery. That would certainly qualify as a non-infantry attack vs a TD and thus stars would indeed be hits.


I understand the logic and pretty much agree with the idea that a barrage would come from artillery in the real world. However, in terms of the rules of the game, an artillery shoots 3-3-2-2-1-1 and a barrage is 4 against any unit on the board.

I've always heard never assume anything in M44 rules and that cards override rules, generally. So if a card doesn't say that stars hit, they don't.

Just my opinion...

i agree

[Updated on: Wed, 07 August 2019 14:06] by Moderator

      
tank commander
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Fri, 02 August 2019 21:54
It is always good to get input in these matters.

I think DOW still offers up official answers to questions so I will submit this one and perhaps we will have a reply.

John
      
Clexton27
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Re:Stars from airplane attacks and Tank Destroyers Fri, 02 August 2019 23:30
tank commander wrote on Fri, 02 August 2019 15:54

It is always good to get input in these matters.

I think DOW still offers up official answers to questions so I will submit this one and perhaps we will have a reply.

John

Thanks TC!
      
    
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