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waltero
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Defense Sat, 17 October 2020 21:11
The best offense is sometimes a good defense.

This is for those of you who never think "Defense"?

https://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44-online/en/battle/?id=8 7342870#replay:turn=13


Looking pretty Grimm for the Axis; Turn 13, Axis down two medals vs five...With only one additional medal for Allied win.

Turn 17 the Axis Withdrew his weakest unit and focused on Defense. 22 turns to hold off enemy forces from certain victory.

Had my worthy opponent taken the same precautions (Neither side had momentum) and focused on protecting his weaker (one figure units within range of enemy artillery ) units, the game might have played out differently.

This game was fun too. 7 one figure units Routing back to safety. No need to engage your opponent...he will come to you.

https://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44-online/en/battle/?id=8 7342126#replay:turn=18

Of course sometimes HQ (cards) won't allow you to withdraw from battle...Just something a player should watch for... being that first instinct is usually to engage enemy!

Not much action on this site...I entertain myself by posting, in the hope that somebody might take note. I try expressing such advice while in game but most players are to proud to take sound advice from a Lieutenant

I've had many games such as this. One game where my opponent took my lead and kept withdrawing his broke unit too.
By games end every one of our units were knocked down to one figure (I sh*t you not)...it was the craziest thing...makes for good fun.








[Updated on: Sun, 18 October 2020 08:03]

      
BagrationM
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Re:Defense Sat, 17 October 2020 21:16
Interressant
      
Jeronimon
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Re:Defense Sun, 18 October 2020 09:35
waltero wrote on Sat, 17 October 2020 21:11

Not much action on this site...I entertain myself by posting, in the hope that somebody might take note. I try expressing such advice while in game but most players are to proud to take sound advice from a Lieutenant


I do take note, but if you want more discussion maybe you could question more?
Your analysis seems very certain as to what is the right way to play and leaves, in my opinion, little to no room for discussion. Describing your advice as sound is an example of that.

From what I read I can tell you are a sound tactical and strategic player that wants to help other players. I share a lot of your opinions on how to approach/play M44. But your writing style leaves me with the impression that you know best with little room for discusion. I might of course be wrong as written communication lacks a lot of the feeling(s) and emoji's can only do so much Smile

My own approach tot the game is more of seeing what I could learn from the play style of my opponent and incorporate in my own game. I frequently have discussion about why somebody did something and in a dialog I hear arguments and give arguments of why that (or another action/course) might be beneficial and in what situation it might not. I feel that those discussion have helped me improve my game, and hopefully their game as well.
      
Photios
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January 2011
Re:Defense Sun, 18 October 2020 16:27
There is always a different way of looking at things.

Walter, you begin with deep offense: you bring forth as many units as possible hoping to take advantage of extra dice of Japs. The outcome is what we see so often: Baron decimates your units one by one or in twos, while you only get 2 medals (however one of them was the artillery and this proved crucial afterwards). However this is the usual way offensive players lose games. Your hit rate is better than average at 15/27 (56%) of which 2/6 against artillery (double than probability). Baron can't complain either: 23/49 (47%), but so many more orders.

After that, luck changes completely. Baron has no more good cards and misses with his Barrage (1/4) in turn 20 (probability of killing it was 69%). Croupier makes you a big favor by giving you Medics & Mechanics.

Baron makes a crucial mistake by not moving one more unit to his right with General Advance in turn 24, since he had so many right cards, but his strategy is to wait for your attack and counter with his Firefight (his only good card). He even brings forth a bait in turn 26, which he loses by your 4/7 in turn 27.

Then dice fails him completely: just as he gets a central probe he launches the firefight attack. Again 2/8. He was hoping to get you down to 2fig at least. Then when he plays the probe he does not go adjacent to the Jap in the forest as 3/4 is quite unlikely, however he could have won there. No more central cards though to sustain such an attack.

Concluding, after turn 14, Baron shoots at 5/20 (25%), while you with 11/25 (44%).

Offensive game renders the outcome too dependent on hit rate. If you have a good hit rate or better enough than your opponent, than you will get an impressive victory. But this would be in 1 out of 3 or 4 games. All experienced players do not expose themselves unnecessarily, but they will attack ferociously if they have the good cards (at least 3 per section).

So you won because you played much more carefully in the end not because you attacked so carelessly in the beginning.

[Updated on: Sun, 18 October 2020 16:30]

      
waltero
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Re:Defense Sun, 18 October 2020 19:53
Quote:
"This is for those of you who never think "Defense"?

I've played many a War games over the years and if there is one thing that it has taught me; there is no such thing as a sure thing (in war).

I am in Error.
That being said, I believe his only option was to vacate those two inf. units and hold back. I can't see it any other way.
If you see something I sure would like to learn?

Many players first instinct is to think offense...switch it up a bit, think defense first?

There are two Scenario's that I know of, that allow you to be behind four medals or more, without having any concern...this scenario is one of them.

I found myself thinking (for a split sec.) of forcing the attack and then instinct set in. If you play the same scenario a million times over you will do what comes natural. In this scenario the Allies must "think" (at some point) defense...no question about it.

Quote;
"All experienced players do not expose themselves unnecessarily".

All?

Knowing your opponent does not think defense (pulling back wounded units) plays to your advantage. In fact had he pulled his wounded back, I would have surrendered.

https://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44-online/en/battle/?id=8 7342870#replay:turn=31


Quote:
All experienced players do not expose themselves unnecessarily, but they will attack ferociously if they have the good cards (at least 3 per section). Yes and that is my point as well, I've had days where my units can not hit a broadside of a barn with a handful of raisins...days like this (if your bent set on playing) it might be wise to think along the lines of defense?
I played this game for an entire month, not being able to hit an enemy tank, I couldn't kill a tank unit no matter how much firepower I brought against it. SO I was forced to target enemy inf...it was sad but my game play didn't suffer. Learned; target the inf. if you have a choice, just as long as the enemy tank does not pose any real threat...run for cover when the Tigers enter the Battlefield!

My question to you is; How many times have you encountered an "experienced" player spend His good cards running for cover (with such Veracity)...I'm talking full units?

I, in no way am putting a diss on the Baron, he is a far better player than I...just not in this scenario Very Happy

Some players tend to force the situation not knowing that defense is essential (in my experience). Had my opponent withdrew those two damaged units, Even when your opponent points it out...It would have been a win for him I have no doubt.

Quote:
"There is always a different way of looking at things"..

That may be true for some players, for others (while in the zone...AKA game), that is not their way at all.
Example: those players who are always announcing the Dice stats over the radio..."tunnel vision" for sure.

[Updated on: Tue, 20 October 2020 20:55]

      
waltero
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Re:Defense Tue, 20 October 2020 21:27
Quote: I try expressing such advice while "in game" but most players are too proud to take sound advice from a Lieutenant


@Jeronimon

Quote: Your analysis seems very certain as to what is the right way to play and leaves, in my opinion, little to no room for discussion. Describing your advice as sound is an example of that.

I agree, most times I come off as a know it all, that is not my intent....My writing skills leave something to be desired.


My "in game" advice would allow my opponent the opportunity to thwart the oncoming onslaught. I can tell my opponent (which I often do) I have this or that card and they might want to watch out or run away. Some players take note while others do not. It might be the fact that some players Don't know what to do about said card while others figure it out...either way it is sound advice, is it not?

As in this game, I could have told my opponent if he moved those two units out of my line of fire I would resign the game, knowing that it is hopeless?

I love it when I am one move from "certain victory" and I let my opponent know what card I am going to play next, then He comes up with a defensive move that completely befuddles me, something that I didn't expect...coming up with an offensive solution is less exciting, because it usually involves great luck.

[Updated on: Tue, 20 October 2020 22:10]

      
Jeronimon
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Re:Defense Wed, 21 October 2020 17:23
waltero wrote on Tue, 20 October 2020 21:27

@Jeronimon

Quote: Your analysis seems very certain as to what is the right way to play and leaves, in my opinion, little to no room for discussion. Describing your advice as sound is an example of that.

I agree, most times I come off as a know it all, that is not my intent....My writing skills leave something to be desired.



In my opinion I might be able to maybe help, I think.
Intersperse into your text: I think, maybe, In my opinion, it/I might.
That may help if I might make a suggestion.
See wahr I did there? Wink

In my advice giving I am more cruel than you.
If I see things during the battle that I think can be improved I ask my opponent if he/she wants tips.
If no, fine.
If yes: I will comment after the fact. And I usually start out with the question: why did you do that like that? They might have some insight I have yet to learn. (On one occasion I have learned that something I thought was stupid was in fact a well thought out plan to still win the (lost) Match by taking a crazy risk.)
After that I suggest ways it could have been different and ask if they see/understand what the implications could have been.

But as stated I do this after they have made their (alleged) mistakes. Smile


Also this way of learning/helping is tedious behind a keyboard. It works better on a play evening and even better if there are more people to discuss several options. We tend to have those discussions around the Overlord table. Great fun Cool
      
waltero
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Re:Defense Sat, 24 October 2020 03:04
Thanks Jeronimon, for the Sound advice Smile

guess I get a little too flustered (specially when they win) when I run up against players who continually Assault, Attacks, ATTACK, ATTACK...that's all they know! I use to be one of those Guys. For 45 years, I never thought about anything other than Offense...it worked for me.

It is only in the past few years that I came to discover Defense. Defense has helped my game play immensely. I might have got a little over excited...wanted to share with others who play as poorly as I do/did.


The reason why I might help some rookies out by declaring my next move/cards, is because I want to play the best game possible, win or lose.

Anyway have fun and Enjoy da game Cool



[Updated on: Sun, 25 October 2020 00:34]

      
Jeronimon
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Re:Defense Sun, 25 October 2020 10:08
Glad to help, and can only agree on that offense is not always a good strategy.

But you are right a lot of people play offensively. I even have had players say what are you doing? When I retreated wounded units out of their range when they could have attacked aggressively. My reply would be: stealing your medal.
The example usually gets them thinking about it and seeing it as a viable strategy.

In tournaments, online and in in real life, all the better players do it. And it works so if players want to win more games they might think about playing defensively and retreating and shielding their weak units.

Shielding being putting less weak units in front of weaker units so they cannot be attacked. Beware when there is a breakthrough by the enemy this can stack up the medals fast! Smile
      
waltero
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Re:Defense Fri, 30 October 2020 07:29
I've been playing against Cadets lately. I think the main reason why this is such an Aggressive game is due to the AI. The AI doesn't Follow any kind of defensive pattern...always going on the offense. Players who join in and gain knowledge of the game by playing against the AI, first...gives them a misconception of how the game is to be played.



I would encourage new players not to pay attention to the dice stats. nor listen to the players who are always crying over the Radio...0-11, 2-8 1-7 etc. It means absolutely nothing as far as the game...they are just Whiners. Trying to put the jinx on you. Some will leave and come back to see if their luck has change Rolling Eyes...then they can cry louder when the AI plays the turn for them...Duh.


To some; it is just a game of Luck and that is the way they prefer it.

[Updated on: Sun, 01 November 2020 01:21]

      
    
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