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Major Duncan
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Collapsible rafts question Thu, 09 November 2017 12:02
Now for my own question.

A unit with rafts has crossed a river over a bridge and then moved along the bank so that the bridge is no longer behind it. It has received a flag result. As its rafts are as yet unused, could it retreat onto the river?
      
Zalamence
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Thu, 09 November 2017 19:08
I presume not, because even if they are on boats (in river) they still will take casualties instead of retreating.

https://cdn0.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_compendium_action_5.jpg
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Thu, 09 November 2017 19:30
Zalamence wrote on Thu, 09 November 2017 18:08

I presume not, because even if they are on boats (in river) they still will take casualties instead of retreating.


But they are not in the river, they are next to it, and still have their unused rafts.

"Units with boats may enter a river hex."

A two hex retreat, if any retreat at all was allowed, would result in the loss of one figure. The instance I describe is not covered by the card or the FAQ.

[Updated on: Thu, 09 November 2017 19:32]

      
Jon Washington
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Thu, 09 November 2017 21:07
Based on the summary card, you can move onto water, in the moving phase of the turn, but you cannot retreat onto water in the way you're saying. Moving is different than entering so if you see "enter" in the rule book somewhere, that's an FAQ thing.

[Updated on: Thu, 09 November 2017 22:50]

      
Major Duncan
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Thu, 09 November 2017 22:48
Jon Washington wrote on Thu, 09 November 2017 20:07

Based on the summary card, you can move onto water, in the moving phase of the turn, but you cannot retreat onto water in the way you're saying. Moving is different than entering so if you see "enter" in the rule book somewhere, that's an FAQ thing.


Yes, my enter quote is from the rules for Collapisble Rafts in the Terrain Pack, although it does go on to say "must stop and move no further on that turn." This would suggest the entering is done by moving, and thus retreating with rafts would not be allowed. That's how I interpreted it in the end anyway
      
Jon Washington
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Thu, 09 November 2017 22:50
OK after re-reading the base game retreat rules and the terrain pack rules section on this, I agree that an official decision is needed.

In the basic retreat rules, it says terrain is ignored except impassable terrain but the raft makes the river passable to the unit carrying the raft. But then on the summary card, it says the unit does not retreat.

My gut feeling is that the phrase "unit does not retreat" trumps everything else. That really simplifies it in my mind.
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Thu, 09 November 2017 22:56
Jon Washington wrote on Thu, 09 November 2017 21:50

My gut feeling is that the phrase "unit does not retreat" trumps everything else. That really simplifies it in my mind.


But that is only in reference to a unit already in their rafts on the river, and not to a unit adjacent to the river with their rafts available to use to enter the river.

But as I said, I reckon (90% sure) that using the rafts to retreat on to the river would probably be prohibited by any official answer,
      
Jon Washington
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Thu, 09 November 2017 23:15
Yeah that's actually a good point.

To take it a step further, if the unit can retreat, then why couldn't it retreat more than one space? Just leave the boat at the shore after retreating out of the water like normal?

I'm also with you that it's probably not allowed. Razz

Interesting question and good discussion. Cheers
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Thu, 09 November 2017 23:31
If the retreat was allowed, then once on the water the rules on the card kick in and no further retreat would be possible.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Fri, 10 November 2017 01:04
If you're looking at house rules, I always thought it would be fun to allow units with a raft to drop their raft on the shore after using it.

Once the Star is on the shore, then any unit could run up and use it to cross the river again. So both sides could ferry themselves back and forth across a river using the same rafts.

But that's totally a house rule that I haven't tried before. Smile
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Fri, 10 November 2017 09:04
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 10 November 2017 00:04

If you're looking at house rules


No, we're not, well at least not in this thread anyway. We are looking for an answer to the following rule question:

"A unit with rafts has crossed a river over a bridge and then moved along the bank so that the bridge is no longer behind it. It has received a flag result. As its rafts are as yet unused, could it retreat onto the river?"

The card only covers the situation where the unit is already on the river in the rafts. And as the rules state a unit with rafts adjacent to a river hex may "enter" it, I wondered if retreat onto the river with as yet unused rafts would be allowed?

Nice house rule though Smile
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Fri, 10 November 2017 20:58
I would say you can't retreat. Remember that every situation can't possibly be covered in the rules or in my FAQ, so there will be times you'll have to infer the rules. In the end, the only thing that matters is that you're having fun and you agree with your opponent on a ruling.

Because the rule for boats clearly say you can't retreat in a river, even if you're on a boat, I would say it can't be used to retreat from the shore.

If you're looking for a 'realistic' or 'logical' reason, think of this: if a unit is already on the water, the boat is inflated and the troops are already in the boat. They're rowing around but aren't able to retreat. If a unit is on the shore, their boat is probably inflated but nobody is in the boat, ores are away...so it doesn't make sense that they could retreat with the boat from the shore but not from in the water.

I hope this helps!
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Sat, 11 November 2017 00:35
I'm happy to go with that. It is how I played it in the end anyway, and I wouldn't be surprised that this situation never comes up again.
      
Clexton27
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Sat, 11 November 2017 14:20
The exception in this scenario, which is different than most other river crossing scenarios, is that there is actually a bridge that can be used to cross the river rather than just rafts. If the scenario writer had simply written a specific rule that once the river was crossed the rafts are no longer available, it would have covered your contingency.

It would seem normal that the guys having made it to the bridge would have ditched their rafts on the opposite side of the river anyway. And hence, the only point at which to retreat without taking losses would be back at the bridge. Rolling Eyes Laughing Shocked

[Updated on: Sat, 11 November 2017 14:23]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Sat, 11 November 2017 16:45
Clexton27 wrote on Sat, 11 November 2017 05:20

The exception in this scenario, which is different than most other river crossing scenarios, is that there is actually a bridge that can be used to cross the river rather than just rafts. If the scenario writer had simply written a specific rule that once the river was crossed the rafts are no longer available, it would have covered your contingency.


Great point! What scenario was the question about?
      
Clexton27
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Sun, 12 November 2017 01:27
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 11 November 2017 10:45

Clexton27 wrote on Sat, 11 November 2017 05:20

The exception in this scenario, which is different than most other river crossing scenarios, is that there is actually a bridge that can be used to cross the river rather than just rafts. If the scenario writer had simply written a specific rule that once the river was crossed the rafts are no longer available, it would have covered your contingency.


Great point! What scenario was the question about?


I am guessing that the scenario was NIJMEGEN BRIDGES
https://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/editor/view/?id=130 2

The scenario has two bridges with the closest one to the Infantry with rafts being a railroad bridge.

[Updated on: Sun, 12 November 2017 01:31]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Sun, 12 November 2017 04:04
Clexton27 wrote on Sat, 11 November 2017 16:27

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 11 November 2017 10:45

Clexton27 wrote on Sat, 11 November 2017 05:20

The exception in this scenario, which is different than most other river crossing scenarios, is that there is actually a bridge that can be used to cross the river rather than just rafts. If the scenario writer had simply written a specific rule that once the river was crossed the rafts are no longer available, it would have covered your contingency.


Great point! What scenario was the question about?


I am guessing that the scenario was NIJMEGEN BRIDGES
https://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/editor/view/?id=130 2

The scenario has two bridges with the closest one to the Infantry with rafts being a railroad bridge.


The only way I can picture a unit with Rafts getting to the other side of the river without using the raft would be using [Their Finest Hour]~I mean, Behind Enemy Lines, but maybe that's what happened if it was that scenario.

[Updated on: Sun, 12 November 2017 18:14]

      
sam1812
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Sun, 12 November 2017 09:56
Ras, did you mean BEL?

I agree with your analysis that if a unit can't retreat onto a river hex when it's in the river, then it can't retreat onto a river hex when it's on regular ground, either. The rafts are inflatable, not inflated.

FYI, this question would also apply to Cadets of Saumur.
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Sun, 12 November 2017 16:51
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 11 November 2017 15:45

What scenario was the question about?


Assault on the Wattenberg. From CB1.

[Updated on: Sun, 12 November 2017 17:21]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Sun, 12 November 2017 18:15
sam1812 wrote on Sun, 12 November 2017 00:56

Ras, did you mean BEL?

I agree with your analysis that if a unit can't retreat onto a river hex when it's in the river, then it can't retreat onto a river hex when it's on regular ground, either. The rafts are inflatable, not inflated.

FYI, this question would also apply to Cadets of Saumur.


Ha! Yes, I meant Behind Enemy Lines and I've edited my post. That's what I get for posting in a hurry!! Very Happy
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Mon, 13 November 2017 12:44
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 12 November 2017 17:15

I meant Behind Enemy Lines.

could a unit cross a river using Behind Enemy Lines then? I know you can ignore terrain, but I always thought impassable terrain would still prevent movement?

[Updated on: Mon, 13 November 2017 12:47]

      
Clexton27
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Mon, 13 November 2017 14:50
Major Duncan wrote on Mon, 13 November 2017 06:44

could a unit cross a river using Behind Enemy Lines then? I know you can ignore terrain, but I always thought impassable terrain would still prevent movement?


The answer is NO for a regular Infantry. However, an infantry unit with a raft could use it. This is answered in the FAQ p.54:

Q. Can an Infantry unit that has the ability to cross a River with a Collapsible Boat use their Boat with the Behind Enemy Lines card to cross the River?
A. Yes, however, once the unit crosses the River, immediately remove the unit’s Battle Star token; the unit has abandoned its Boat, and may now no longer move onto a River hex.
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Mon, 13 November 2017 16:10
Clexton27 wrote on Mon, 13 November 2017 13:50

Major Duncan wrote on Mon, 13 November 2017 06:44

could a unit cross a river using Behind Enemy Lines then? I know you can ignore terrain, but I always thought impassable terrain would still prevent movement?


The answer is NO for a regular Infantry. However, an infantry unit with a raft could use it. This is answered in the FAQ p.54


Thanks.
      
player3584445
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Fri, 13 November 2020 22:57
I would play it that the rafts can only be used by an "ordered" unit during it's movement phase.
      
player3584445
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Re:Collapsible rafts question Fri, 13 November 2020 23:00
The rafts are not inflated, they have "collapsible" waterproofed canvas sides much like a Sherman DD tank. If you have ever seen "A Bridge Too Far", you know what I mean.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 November 2020 23:01]

      
    
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